Glen73 vs HSBC! - a little advice please!

[Glen73]

Hi,

 

I'm Glen and i'm new to this!

 

I've reached the 'Preliminary approach for repayment' letter stage. I have a couple of questions before i send this off. If anyone can help me it'd be much appreciated:

 

1) What is meant by including a 'schedule of charges' with my letter? Does that mean writing down each charge next to each date i received these charges so it's easy for the bank to see why i'm claiming for the full amount? Therefore a 6 year list of all the charges with my next letter.

 

2) Overdraft interest? I feel stupid for asking, but I thought that it was only the charges (ie in my case £25 each time i went over my overdraft limit) that were illegal. I thought i read that interest on an overdraft were legal? I'm a bit unclear about this. They put this info on my statements so it'll be easy to calculate if i am entitled to these charges as well.

 

I'm sorry if i've not made myself very clear. I'm just trying to do this step by step.

 

Also my bank refunded the £10 i gave them when requesting my 6 years worth of statements back. Have you found that your bank has done the same? Will this be used against me by the bank at some point in the future? Or are they just trying to remain 'friendly' with me?

 

Thanks

 

Glen

[towelie]

Hi Glen

 

What you need to do is fill in the spreadsheet in the bank template library. It will automatically work out the interest for you, however you cant claim back interest til you file the claim in court. Once you have input all your charges and the dates, hide the colums for interest and days since charged, print it out and attach this with your prelim letter.

 

Good luck

[Michael Browne]

Hi,

 

 

2) Overdraft interest? I feel stupid for asking, but I thought that it was only the charges (ie in my case £25 each time i went over my overdraft limit) that were illegal. I thought i read that interest on an overdraft were legal? I'm a bit unclear about this. They put this info on my statements so it'll be easy to calculate if i am entitled to these charges as well.

 

When you go overdrawn the bank will charge you interest, perfectly lawfully.

 

However if part of your overdraft is made up of penalty fees, they are also charging you interest on these too and it is this interest which you are entitled to claim back and it's tricky to separate out from the total interest figure.

 

Vampiress has a spreadsheet, in the bank templates library, which attempts to calculate this

 

It's quite complex and unless your claim is large often doesn't amount to that much, so for simplicity's sake, some people don't bother

[thewifeandI]

There's two distinct lots of interest applicable here and you need to get them straight in your mind first.

 

When you had a charge deducted from your account this lowered your bank balance. Over time the accumulated total of these charges may have driven your account into overdraft, and maybe past your limit. The bank usually charges you interest on the overdraft balance. There is a spreadsheet available that will work out how much of the interest they have charged you is down to the charges. This IS reclaimable as part of your initial claim.

 

When your claim gets to the stage when you have to issue a summons for repayment of the monies owed you are entitled under Section 69 of the County Courts Act to add interest at 8% to the amounts you are claiming. The spreadsheet will also calculate this amount.

 

In your initial claim ask for the charges back, plus the calculated interest on those charges. Only when you raise your court paperwork can you claim the extra 8%.

 

Spreadsheet is here http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/6964-spreadsheet-interest.html - please read the whole thread to understand how to use it.

[Glen73]

Thanks to all who replied to my post. That has been really helpful. I'll make sure i keep everyone updated with my progress as i suspect i'll be claiming a lot. I've been living in my overdraft for years now and have a fair few times gone over the 'agreed' limit. Hopefully i can claim all this back. In fact only a few months ago i was charged £125 by my HSBC bank for going over my limit 5 times. I might add they only sent me the one letter informing me of this (rather than one for each £25 charge incurred). I complained and they sent me another letter saying that they made the correct charges and i should contact a financial advisor if required. However my actual complaint had been that they charged me the £125 and rather than be sympathetic to my situation they simply extended my overdraft to cover the fees (even though £125 is the limit they charge you) and retracted it the following month. Thus i was left to pay my charges and deal with the overdraft going back to the normal limit. In effect paying £250 the following month when i was clearly already struggling. I realise that i haven't managed my money well but they didn't offer me any way out. They could have perhaps taken the charges from me in smaller chunks. They basically caused me to go over my limit in the following month and it only stopped when i came into some money. Otherwise i'd still be in the same situation. That is just a recent example!

 

Regards

 

Glen

[Idamonster]

Thanks to all who replied to my post. That has been really helpful. I'll make sure i keep everyone updated with my progress as i suspect i'll be claiming a lot. I've been living in my overdraft for years now and have a fair few times gone over the 'agreed' limit. Hopefully i can claim all this back. In fact only a few months ago i was charged £125 by my HSBC bank for going over my limit 5 times. I might add they only sent me the one letter informing me of this (rather than one for each £25 charge incurred). I complained and they sent me another letter saying that they made the correct charges and i should contact a financial advisor if required.

 

Glen

 

Glen, HSBC charged me £125 for the same thing! B'stards! And this was around Christmas time too so I rang and the customer services guy was an awful ******* - he referred me to the terms & conditions. I'm delighted to be able to do something about that now and will hopefully get this cash back for this Christmas!

 

All the best with your claim.

 

Ida

[Glenn UK]

GLen

 

 

Just a slight variation on the theme set out by jeep.

 

YOu can claim back the unawful charges plus any interest you have paid as a result of theose charges.#

 

Now the variation.

 

You can either claim interest at the contractual rate accoridng to the unathroirsed overdraft rate (tpyically around 25 - 30% per annum)

 

or you can claim interest if and when it gets to court under Section 69 of the County Courts Act.

 

Contractual interest will obviousley increase the amount of your claim but this may have drawbacks. If it takesw the value of your claim over 5k then this will put you in whats known as Fast Track should it get to court.

 

IF you were to loose your case then you would be liable for costs typically restricted to a max of 750.

 

If the claim goes over 15k however, you would end up in multi track where if you lost the sky would be the limit for costs.

 

Although this sounds a bit gloomy, its worth understanding at the beginning of your claim what the options are.

 

THe contractual interest route is a new approach being tried by some mebers of the site with their claims but it is legal and perfeclty valid approach.

 

HTH

 

Glenn

 

PS for clarification if you claim contractual interest you cannot claim Sec 69 interest.

[davefirewalker]

Hi glen Uk

 

I think as long as the principal claim is under £5k the interest and charges can take it over £5K but still be on the small claims track. BUT if the total IS over £5k the the court fees jump to £250

 

Dave

[thewifeandI]

Not quite, Dave - this is true with s69 interest, but with contractual interest the interest is part of the basic claim and is used for the cost AND the track.

[davefirewalker]

Thats what I like about this forum....

 

you really do learn something every day

 

thanks

 

Dave

[Glenn UK]

I agree with jeep,

 

Sadly contractual interest not only is included in tht etotal for fees but also the allocation to a particualr track.

 

I wanted to do a single claim against abbey my fees and the interest paid put the claim in fast track.

 

However, when i add contractual interest it goes a long way into multi track, so i have spoken to a few people on line and a couple of different courts to check the issues about this before putting in my claim.

 

HTH

 

Glenn

[gjindancer]

I have my court date next week, and I have been in contact with barclays over the phone and they are talking about settling - however they dispute this interest on penalties.

 

It has been said on this thread that you can claim back interest on unlawful charges - but where is the evidence to support this? and also show that it does not conflict with the s96 8% interest that you can claim when the issue comes to court.

 

I need this info asap as I need to convince Paul Quinn at Barclays legal!!!

 

Thanks

 

Dan

[davefirewalker]

firstly you should have done the speadsheet and sent them a schedule of charges (+ showing the interest on each charge that you will be claiming @8%)

 

if they settle before court they can get away without paying the interest. If they take it to court and fold you can claim the principal and the interest as calculated

 

I think this is right though someone may correct me

Dave

[Mad Nick]

gjindancer, it all stems from a basic principle of law - to be put back in the position you were beforehand. In this case, the charges are (allegedly) unenforceable, so it follows that you can also claim back the interest they levied on the charges that shouldn't have been taken. If you want to dress it up in a bit of legalise (bits in bold are accepted legal phrases with particular meanings - I've done what research I can and it sounds good but I obviously can't vouch for it, so you use it at your own risk):

The Defendant applied overdraft interest to the charges. This overdraft interest is an integral part of the money had and received by the Defendant resulting from the mistake of law regarding the default charges. The Claimant is therefore also reclaiming the overdraft interest levied on the charges on the basis of restitution of unjust enrichment through payment by the Claimant to the Defendant of both charges and overdraft interest originating from the same mistake of law. If the charges alone were repaid to the Claimant, the Defendant would be left unduly enriched by over £XXXX – the Claimant contends that this would be an iniquitous state of affairs.

 

The Claimant contends that this claim for restitution for unjust enrichment resulting from a mistake of law is supported by Deutsche Morgan Grenfell Group plc v Inland Revenue Commissioners and anor ([2006] UKHL 49); and Kleinwort Benson Ltd -v- Lincoln City Council Kleinwort Benson Ltd -v- Mayor Etc Of The London Borough Of Southwark and Others; Kleinwort Benson Ltd -v- Birmingham City Council Kleinwort Benson Ltd -v- Mayor Etc Of The London Borough Of Kensington An [1998] UKHL 38; [1999] 2 AC 349; [1998] 4 All ER 513; [1998] 3 WLR 1095.

 

Finally, the 8% SI is intended to recompense Claimants for having been deprived of money wrongfully taken (in this case, the charges + overdraft interest). So you are on perfectly sound legal ground going for charges + overdraft interest + SI. I wish I'd realised that - the penny didn't drop with me until after my N1 (which is just for charges + o/d interest). Regards, Mad Nick

[gjindancer]

Thanks Mad Nick, that does help a lot!! I have followed the forums advice to the T all the way through so I was surpised I was being pulled up by barclays for this - I think they are trying it on to see if there is a chance I am following instruction from the forum without understanding it.

 

Also - I managed to submit my court bundle before the 14 Days to trial deadline - I just noticed today I've actually had nothing from barclays - I explained this to Paul Quinn from Barclays and he told me they had already defended (The usual defence at the MCOL stage) - I though my AQ was to rebuff this and that I would be supplied with further information for court? (in theory as Barclays don't intend to show up!)

 

Thanks Again

 

Dan