Good for you. I'll be watching with interest. Sorry the link doesn't work - I am hopeless. If you do a search on the words 'Falsifying Documents' you'll get there. Very interested in what you have said, Monty. My main points are on 'Falsifying Documents' - don't want to hijack this thread. DD

Oooh. I wish they would all start admitting they haven't got their agreements. Brilliant. DD

Hi Trilby, Well a number of us are getting stuff directly from the banks/card companies where clearly they are trying to imply that the terms&conditions/prescribed terms were on the back when obviously they weren't, and have probably been lifted from a separate leaflet which would mean that the agreement hadn't been properly executed (everything within the four corners of the agreement) so is clearly unenforceable. If the letter encloses something which the bank states quite clearly is "a copy of your original agreement" when someone has been doing a job with various bits of paper and glue, that is to my mind falsifying the document. Under CPR 31.16 or 31.14 (think that is right), we would have a right to see the original document if these cases are going to court. If they have sent a copy of something they say is the original document, how can they later produce something else, especially when we already have what they have sent which they have said is a true copy? Are any of these people who send these letters with the "copy of the original credit agreement" actually aware that they are committing an offence? That's why I am keen to know if any of the card companies (or DCAs for that matter) has been exposed? DD

I have just started a new thread on this Falsifying documents I'd love to know if any of these companies have ever been caught out and prosecuted. Any ideas anyone? Daniella

Hi Roco123, I've just looked at yours. In your 'Financial and related particulars' you have references to Condition 17, and Condition 7.2 and it says these can be found in the Terms and Conditions. In other words, they are on a separate leaflet. They have clearly cut out this bit from the T&Cs, so I think it's well worth asking for the inspection. At the moment I am just going to write back to them and ask them to explain these inconsistencies. Like kstaplet my stuff has been blown up to A3 size. I think the whole particulars have been blown up from a much smaller leaflet but they are clearly trying to make out they are on the back. Buggers. DD I just wondered if there has been a case where a credit card company has been publicly exposed for trying to mislead a customer (of lots of customers) by falsifying the original credit agreement? Clearly a number of us are getting copies of agreements where different bits have been stuck together. When we get to inspect them this will be obvious. If they have sent out one of these bodge jobs and said in their letters that it is a copy of the original credit agreement can they be charged with falsifying documents? This is after all a criminal offence. Site Team? Anyone? What do you think? DD Testing DD

Hi Kstaplet, I have just got my "agreement"!!!!!! from Barclaycard. Looks a bit like yours and again references to conditions which aren't anywhere to be seen so must be in a separate leaflet. What they sent me is also on A3, blown up so much as to make the Financial and Related Particulars almost illegible. This would seem to me to imply that it has been blown from something much, much smaller, probably from a leatlet which from the T&Cs so they are not part of the original agreement at all. DD

Hi, This is the bog standard 'Ellie Renshaw' letter. I couldn't get the agreement enlarged. SB100 has this letter on his thread too I think, and Sunflower 99's thread has the stuff they have sent her. Sub to those if you are not already on them. I have never heard of Capone coming up with any real agreements. DD

Hi Sunflower, Debitas have been very quiet this week. I told the last one on Monday or Tuesday night that I was going to complain about harassment and didn't think they would take a blind bit of notice but they have been quiet ever since. I think guidelines say they can call once every 72 hours so they'll probably be back on again tomorrow. Another tip for insomnia which I didn't think would work but it does: Imagine yourself in a supermarket, and then think of everything red that you can find in there. Start with fruit, then veg, then jams, then labels on things, flowers, edam cheese rind, packaging for various things - you'll be amazed how much stuff there is that is red and then you'll be asleep...zzzzzzzzzz DDxx

Hi Slick, Thank you. Didn't want to hijack at all - was just sharing info that what I had got appears very suspect, and advising what others may expect. Read a fortnight or so ago that apparently MSDW weren't coming up with any 'agreements' or that they had all been destroyed after the accounts had been running two/three months, but clearly they are finding them from somewhere. I think what I got is an excerpt from a leaflet, so probably not enforceable. Thanks again. DD Even if I had a scanner there would be no point - it's hardly legible.

Thank you, Steven. I'm still working on it, but actually have to do some work sometimes as well, and find it easier to get it all in my head in daylight, rather than at the end of the day. I hope to finish the draft tomorrow and will post it here Thank you for staying with me. DDxx

Firstly, call the Court first thing tomorrow and tell them the situation about your mother's health. You may have to provide evidence that she is unwell, but if you say you are going to do that the Court should contact the bailiff's office and call them off for now. Then write the court a long letter about your mother's circumstances, and that you have just found the Judgment. I once got a CCJ for a service charge payment which was sent to the wrong address, and got it set aside. You apply to the court, and ask for the relevant form. Clearly as your mother is disabled and mentally ill, she is unlikely to be applying for further credit, so I wouldn't worry too much about the CCJ, but as I've said you can almost certainly get it set aside. You'll get a lot of advice on the correct procedures to follow, but I am sure that the Court will be very sympathetic to your mother's situation. DD

Hi Flintstones, You need to go on all the other Capone threads. Do a search and they'll all come up. Sunflower99's is good, and I've just joined SB100, There are exactly the same creases on the supposed 'back of agreement' they have sent so many people. Other supposed agreements from the same time refer to late payment fees, but this apparently doesn't. You need advice from far more experienced people than me but the general consensus on almost all the threads is that 2002 'agreements' are unlikely to be enforceable. DD

Hi Noomill, This morning I received a copy of my original MSDW application form. It is such a bad copy that even if I had a scanner there wouldn't be any point in putting on here. However with a lot of effort it is possible to read it. On the first page it refers to Terms and Conditions including Condition 16. On the second sheet there are some sort of conditions, but this is headed Financial and Related Particulars and there is no condition 16. Will start own thread and type it all out. DD

Hi SB100, I'm joining your thread as I also trying to get an agreement from capone. Some hope! Like you I just want to say "have you got it, or haven't you?" Clearly if they had proper agreements they would be sending them. Will be very interested to see what they send in response to your FOI letter. What a good idea. DD

You have a good point there:D Let's see what everyone else thinks. Ideas for every day on a postcard please!! (Or here.) OMG look at the time. Night night DD

Sorry, that should have read two-thirds of your income. DD

Hello, They nicked £70 odd from me last week. I complained and they said they could take a percentage of my disposable income (and they can because it is in the small print) However, I spoke to the Financial Ombudsman Service and they cannot start taking money if they are not leaving you enough to pay your mortgage or rent, council tax, tv licence and so on. Presumably we are also allowed to eat?!!!! They have taken almost one-third of your income which seems very excessive. I suggest you call the FOS tomorrow, get a reference number and then call their complaints number. I have demanded my money back. Forget to check the account today. DD

Hi Teldave, I am so sorry about your loss of both your parents. How miserable you must be feeling right now. I do know exactly how you feeling about the debts. Was almost driven to suicide by very nasty debt collectors in October. Cried and cried and cried. I couldn't see a way out at all. Then I found this site. I am a new girl - joined in December - but I have learned so much in a month, and I feel so much better because I am learning how to deal with these horrible people. If you want to laugh go on to the 'Cheekiness towards a DCA' thread. If you are seriously worried about the gambling you must call Gamblers Anonymous. Gambling is an addiction and an illness. Someone I once loved very much was a gambler. Until I met them I didn't realize how much money could disappear. People can only drink so much, or if they are drug addicts they can only spend so much on drugs a day, but gamblers can lose thousands in a minute. I called about my friend and the guy I spoke to was lovely. It is another support network if you need it, just like the friends you will find here. Take care. DD

That sounds like the sweet one who once said she hoped I would have "a nice day", not one of the sour old grumps. I hope they are getting the message. I saw on the 'Cheekiness towards a DCA" thread that several people were saying something like, "Oh, there goes a bumble bee." in the middle of the conversations with capone/debitas/or whatever DCA. Maybe we should co-ordinate this so that everyone who has contact with them on a particular day has to use a certain phrase in the conversation - eg. bumblebee, or "isn't it absolutely boiling today" (in midwinter when it's -1), or whatever. Just a thought. DD

Hi Sunflower, David, and everyone else. I know this is your thread Sunflower, but it may be of interest to a number of people here - yours is after all the site where people are signing up! (Must be the Debitas laugh-ins!) Question: How many times has anyone waited/ or should we wait / for a proper signed agreement? I know we can reply when they haven't sent the proper CCA within 12+2, or send unacceptable rubbish, but because of Christmas I am way behind on that and I have asked three times for the signed CCA. First time got current terms and conditions, second and third time got signature box and nothing else. They have obviously cut the signature box from somewhere - or did they just keep the signature box as that is all they have sent? If they have got the rest and not just the signature box they keep sending they must know it is unenforceable. Just starting my ' You don't have an enforceable agreement' letters and want to send this to Capone, but they are so incompetent they may of course have a proper agreement, although I can't believe if they actually have they wouldn't have grabbed the first opportunity to send it. Why just send the signature box if they have anything else worthwhile? Any thoughts? Sunflower, I thought I saw a posting from you a couple of days ago on another thread at about 3.00 a.m. I know it's tempting if you can't sleep to go online, but I'm not doing it. Even Slick and I close down at about 12.30!! - I think we are both serious nightowls. I have terrible insomnia - as I am sure so many of us do here - and just before Christmas I read a tip on 'top tips for girls' which said that we can only hold one thought in our minds at any one time, and of course that is absolutely right. I always wake up at about 3.00 a.m. I used to lie there worrying about it all until dawn, then I read the tip. I don't do that any more - I start reading. You need a thriller, detective, ideally, but Joanna Trollope, Mary Wesley (if you don't want anything too gory), anything will do, provided you are interested in the story. It's not a question of boring you to sleep, and you don't want to concentrate too hard, so serious stuff won't work. You may still be awake for an hour or more, but you'll start to feel sleepy and you will go to sleep. Better to read a book than lie there worrying. Lots of love, DD DD xxx

Seriously, she was the one who didn't want to continue the conversation. I thought they were supposed to continue until they got you to admit the debt and/or pay something and/or reduce you to tears? I am still working on the letter. There is quite a long letter on here somewhere quoting various bits and pieces of CCA 1973, and quoting Schedule 6, 2, CCA 127 and so on, and I am adapting that and adding bits. I think that person got a reply saying the card company weren't accepting it - can't remember which company - and write to Ombudman, OFT, whoever. Don't know what happened after that. I have decided I am going to include the whole stuff in my first letter - FCT v Wilson, Tuckey, Hurstanger, the lot. I can't see the point in not. I'll post it tomorrow, I hope. Thanks for your support here, DD

Hi Calkim, You'll get different thoughts here. As you will have seen I also have had problems with AIC. I also have a number of credit cards and sent CCAs in early November, and got some which are decidedly suspect - and no proper response from some others, so I am chasing. I have been told by a barrister friend of mine (not her area at all, but she is very clever) that if I continue to pay after sending the CCA requests I am admitting I have a debt. I had made one payment since I sent the CCA requests, but was very bullied, and only spoke to my friend after that. I am absolutely not paying any more until I get a valid CCA - if I do! They should have responded within 14 days (12+2 (for postage I believe)). It's more than that since you sent off the CCA so you can send them the account in dispute letter and tell them they can't add interest, chase for payment and so on. I am hopeless at the links but someone else here will give you the thread that includes that. DD

Thanks for that Noomill. I realized as soon as I had put up the first post that of course you couldn't post someone's else's details. Idiot!! The last statements I have to hand are 2000 - others probably in the attic somewhere) - so I must have been 1999 or before. I've seen some other MS application forms, but don't know which one I had. Still waiting to see if they produce anything - at the second time of asking. What fun you will have composing the letter to the ICO!! DDxx

Obviously I don't expect to see their details so that may make scanning difficult. Just the date of the document would be fine so I can see what they are sending out that that particular time. Thanks again. DD

Noomill, If you are not too busy, and can scan in, could you let us see what they have sent. As you know, I'm waiting too. They just their current bcard t & cs when I first asked, so I'm interested to see what they are coming up with. No probs if you can't. I'll have to be patient. Thanks. DD