Rory, I had read your earlier posts including about not sinking to their level. I wasn't including you in the 'bring it on posts'. DD

Fred, that is sooo funny! And absolutely correct probably. Seriously, I would be very distressed if they turned up on my doorstep. I got a letter from them and emailed them immediately telling them they could not visit without an appointment, etc., but of course they may still turn up. I notice that most, or all, of you, telling Kanga and his family to laugh it off, stand up to them, etc., are chaps! Mrs Z appears to be the only one showing any empathy with Kanga's wife and children here. Some of you may be really keen for them to show up on your doorstep so you can give them what-for, but I don't want them to turn up at all, and I'm sure most women on this site would agree with me. I would stand up to them, but I too have a young child and I certainly wouldn't her to witness anything like that. As a sex as well we tend to be far more concerned about the neighbours, rightly or wrongly, and I would be mortified to be having a row with a debt collector on the doorstep, or having to explain it all to my local police. I'm so sorry, Kanga, that your wife and children had to to through that. DD

Hi Sunflower, I was advised AFTER I had sent my CCAs and subsequently paid £220 which I couldn't afford to bcard that I should not have paid anything after sending the CCA because I was admitting I had a debt. I know others on the forum won't agree with that, but maybe they are advising people who still have okay credit ratings? Like you my credit rating was (is) in tatters, and I wish so much I had stopped paying anything at all months before I did, because then I wouldn't be behind on the mortgage, and I am worried sick about that. I did ask Bcard to accept reduced payments and they refused. I look back at all the payments I have made this year to all of them, and I regret it so much. Virtually everything I have paid this year has gone on interest. I only paid because they threatened me so much. It has been a total waste of money because I'm in a worse position now because I paid them. DDxx

Hi Lynzfa, If they ordered it especially and had to pay the postage to the supplier this is what they will be expecting you to cover. Obviously if it came with their regular order this would not be fair. They will probably have had to pay VAT on it, and may not recover this if they can't sell it to someone else. If it was for an older washing machine, no-one may ever want that part. Also if you paid in advance by credit card or debit card, they will have had to pay a percentage to the card company, albeit a small one, and they will want that back as well. So they have come with £5. DD

Thank you, Slick. I can't because I haven't got an scanner. Even I did they would be very hard to read because they have blown everything up to A3 size. I think that is very suspicious too!! DD

Hi, I am thinking of sending the following to Barclaycard. Any thoughts would be helpful. I acknowledge receipt of your letter dated enclosing what you confirm to be a copy of my original Morgan Stanley Credit Agreement. This is in fact my original Application Form for a Morgan Stanley Dean Witter Platinum Card, together with some “Financial and Related Particulars” which appear not to have any connection with the Application form. As you must be aware, this is not a properly executed Credit Card Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. It is scarcely legible, as any copy must be, but I can decipher most of it. On the Application form in the 'Data Protection' box there is a reference to Condition 16 of the Terms and Conditions. There is no Condition 16 anywhere in the paperwork you have sent me. In the “Financial and Related Particulars”, there are ten single points, but there are references to Condition 6.8 and Condition 10.4 which are not contained within these Particulars. I should be grateful if you would explain these discrepancies. Until such time as you provide a properly executed Credit Card Agreement this account remains in dispute. Yours sincerely, Anything else I need to say? Thanks, DD

Hi, I am thinking of sending the following to Barclaycard. Any thoughts would be helpful. I acknowledge receipt of your letter dated enclosing what you confirm to be a copy of my original Morgan Stanley Credit Agreement. This is in fact my original Application Form for a Morgan Stanley Dean Witter Platinum Card, together with some “Financial and Related Particulars” which appear not to have any connection with the Application form. As you must be aware, this is not a properly executed Credit Card Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. It is scarcely legible, as any copy must be, but I can decipher most of it. On the Application form in the 'Data Protection' box there is a reference to Condition 16 of the Terms and Conditions. There is no Condition 16 anywhere in the paperwork you have sent me. In the “Financial and Related Particulars”, there are ten single points, but there are references to Condition 6.8 and Condition 10.4 which are not contained within these Particulars. I should be grateful if you would explain these discrepancies. Until such time as you provide a properly executed Credit Card Agreement this account remains in dispute. Yours sincerely, Anything else I need to say? Thanks, DD

If it is not 'fit for purpose' you have a right to reject it under the Sale of Goods Act. If you speak to Customer Services they will say they are aware of the SOGA, but actually they probably haven't got a clue. You must get your letter to the CEO of Seat. I had something similar with Renault. Not as bad as yours, but an automatic gearbox which went wrong outside the warranty. Customer Services kept bleating "it's not under warranty", and actually refused to give me contact details of senior management. I finally got through to the top and got everything agreed and paid for. But you must get the complaint to someone who actually understands their obligation to you. Good luck with this. DD DD

Thank you, Slick. I've looked at that thread too. I seriously can't believe they have got an agreement at all, and if necessary will use the CPR 31.16/14 or whatever, but as what they have sent actually has no mention of CCA 1974 anywhere I think I will write back and more or less say, "Is that it?". Will post letter here first. DD

Thank you. DD

Site Team, Can someone please move me into the Barclaycard Forum? Thank you. DD

Hi everyone, This time it's my Barclaycard. They responded to the CCA by sending their current Terms and Conditions. I wrote back saying this was not what I wanted and now they have sent a photocopy of their Barclaycard Conditions of Use (copy for you to keep). It is landscape, not portrait, and has four columns, so appears to be the inside of a leaflet. There is no reference to the CCA 1974. The last point just says "This Agreement is governed by English law." There are various bits about interest, monthly statement and repayments in it. It has nothing about me - it just says the agreement is between the bank and the cardholder. I don't ever remember asking for it. I am sure I got it as a cheque guarantee card when I opened my account with Barclays over 20 years ago. Obviously I'm going to write back telling them it is clearly not an enforceable agreement - at least I can't see that it is - but would be grateful for your thoughts. Thank you. DD

Hi Godpikachu, Sent you a rep comment but got cut off halfway through!!! Hope you got it. If they get caught, which I am sure one of them will very soon, it is, as you say, a criminal offence, but I bet all these people who do the cut and paste, etc., jobs have no idea about that. They are probably secretaries, clerks, etc., and I am even wondering if the people who sign the letters even have any idea about how serious this is. We all get the bog standard letters: I am enclosing a copy of your agreement ....... even when it isn't, and in most cases it really isn't - it's a copy of their current T&Cs or the falsified stuff. A friend of mine was recently made redundant from a well-known company, household name. She is in her late 40s and has been there for over 20 years. She had a customer complaint letter and reported it to her ""senior" manager, who told her to quote "health and safety", although it had nothing to do with health and safety, and she refused to do it. The lies all these companies tell is finally being exposed. I'm aware of the moral question - you borrowed the money - but in the last month since I joined CAG I have become so aware of what THEY are doing - and they question OUR morality for daring to ask for our CCAs?!!!!! I don't think when it gets to the point of going to court and goes to a really legally qualified person they would go ahead with it - unless they are stupid - but in the meantime they threaten, bully, bring in the DCAs, and so on. Thank God for this site which is exposing them all. DD

Nosnibor, That is really observant. All I have got from them is the top of an application form without their address or any other contact details. Clearly they sent it to me because it asks if my name and address are correct. There is a barcode on the right. Then nothing at all until the second third which has a signature box. I expect your signature boxes are the same - reference to 23, and so on. BIG ARROW telling me to "simply sign" and return in the freepost envelope. Then NOTHING until the bottom of the page where there is a totally different barcode. I think, and really hope, you are on to something here. Well spotted. I hadn't even looked at the barcodes so I am really impressed. DD

Beachy - thanks for the reminder. Unbelievable. I'll put the bit about no right to turn up without an appointment in my letter. Actually re. Mercers P2C letter I got last week, I have already sent them an email telling them they cannot visit without an appointment so thankfully I have a record of that.

OMG!!! Capital One are going to let us view the agreements? A pig just flew past my window. How wonderful to start the day with such a laugh :D Well, I'm up for it if the date fits. My day started with a letter from Debitas - first yawn of the day. It is my final warning and they are going to sell my debt on. As we know only too well Debitas LEGAL Services pay no attention to the law. They can't sell it on as it is in dispute. I will reply to Mr Greg Mrr-whatever - you know the one, haven't got my letter in front of me - and capone who haven't answered my account in dispute letter, and try and make an appointment to see my agreement too. In fact, why don't we all write to them this week and ask for appointments? DD

Huh!! How come you lot are all getting people with REAL Titles? I'm still just on 'account manager' (various). Citizen B - it really does work. I'd do an 'Insomnia' thread for the Bear Garden, but whenever I post anything it never seems to make it to 'New Posts'. Slick has been trying to help but I am really dippy when it comes to IT. (I have read the Dummies guide - obviously too dumb even for that!) If you want to start the 'Insomnia' thread, please do and I'll add to it. I have one or two others too. Sleep well. DD

Under your 'Financial and Related Conditions' it refers to 2-4.1 below, but it only goes up to 3. Then it says "other conditions referred to are set out in full in your copy of the Morgan Stanley conditions." Obviously a separate document so therefore unenforceable. DD

Sorry, £72K!!

Hi Dave, Of course I had worked out the kind of person you are - I have been reading the thread. I feel as you do - they are bullies, they are using dirty tricks - cutting and pasting to make 'enforceable' agreements, and literally driving people to suicide. I remember a case in the papers about five or six years ago where a guy had killed himself because he owed £72 on card which should clearly never have been issued to him in the first place. I was astonished - and I can understand other reasons to do it - that anyone would do this over money! Of course I had no idea about the constant harassment. That is literally the 'killer'. AIC nearly drove me to it in October. Only my daughter kept me going - how could I do that to her? Called CCCS who gave me a reference number which made them back off. Wish CCCS had told me to ask for CCAs!! I am so glad I found CAG - you and so many other new friends. You are keeping me strong, and like you life is 100% better now. DDxx

Hi Flowerchick, This happened to a friend of mine. Get the Police to give you a Crime number and write to the card companies and give it to them. I'm sure you'll get more advice, but it the debts aren't yours they will not be able to get you to repay them. Even if they take you to court they will have to provide the original signed copy then, so it will be easy to prove it isn't yours!! If of course you have already given them the crime number they are being totally unreasonable, and you will also be able to produce this evidence if they try to take you to court. DD

Hi Dave, I do agree that there is a moral issue. Last Summer I was really struggling to keep up with repayments and a friend suggested I call CCCS to see how I could get the debts written off - she had herself gone bankrupt and said it was great once you had gone through it and got a clean slate. She did the time when she had a bad credit rating and now has more properties than I can count. She also had friends who had done an IVA and lied about all their assets - forgot to mention house in Spain. I can't possibly do that, I said. I don't want an easy option. I'll pay everyone back. I always had done, and life was okay until 2005 when for various reasons my credit card spending soared - not living an extravagent life, just living. Then things got a lot worse and I finally saw the Panorama programme and decided to send for my CCAs. The ones I have got so far are very dodgy - even the most likely looking one is suspect. I haven't done BRW's arithmetic yet, but I'm sure they have had an enormous amount of money from me. Far more than I could ever have borrowed. Frankly if they would just admit they have unenforceable agreements that would be a huge relief. Whether I try to go for BRW's option of asking for the difference of spending and payments I haven't decided yet. It will depend on my position at the time, depending on how I get on with them all. If they didn't charge so much - interest rates have shot up and up and up - then maybe more of us would be happy to pay them, and wouldn't allegedly owe so much now. We would BE ABLE to pay them. "Usury" is the word that springs to mind. There are clearly on this site people who want to not pay debts they can afford, but for so many of us we've been caught out by circumstances, sometimes tragic, rising costs of living, gas, electricity, council tax, food!!! As far as I am concerned my first moral duty is to my daughter, and we are struggling so much right now. It's also hard to be the best, most 'fun' mummy when you are worried sick about your debts, and always tired because you can't sleep at nights. I think you are being very, very brave in taking this to the High Court, and I wish you all the luck in the world. DD

Love it, just love it. DD

Hi Atwozee, This is all about trying to pretend they have an enforceable agreement when they don't and it is an absolute disgrace and totally dishonest of them to do these cut and paste jobs. All situations are different, but one of mine is so blatantly a cut and paste job, it couldn't have been done by accident. I'm writing back to them asking how they can have references to Conditions which don't exist on what they have sent me. They have clearly lifted bits from a leaflet, and obviously they can't copy the whole leaflet on the back because it's too big!!! As this is blatant falsifying of documents I hope one of them gets prosecuted soon. I will certainly be pushing for that if any of them take me to court. DD

Hi Chloecat, Barclays did exactly the same to me on 6th January - the same day my Child Benefit came in and they took all of it. I didn't find out until Friday, 9th when I got a letter from them telling me what they had done. They will say in the Terms and Conditions they can do this, and the man I spoke to because I called immediately said they could take a percentage of my "disposable income". What "disposable income". I told them I wanted it back in the account. It hadn't arrived by Monday so I called FOS, who were appalled, got a reference number, and called Barclays Customer Service (Complaints). Money arrived back in my account today so we both got a result But, seriously, Barclays now nicking child benefit?????!!!!!! I'd love that in the press, but personally wouldn't want the publicity. DD