Hi, The CCJ debt,Once they have judgement it can be difficult to challenge the debt, but not impossible. You can apply to have the judgement set a side if you discover that the debt is mainly made up of unlawful bank charges,& is therefore innacurate.Also some have been successful in challenging the CCJ if the lender has failed to comply with a CCA request, but this will depend on the age of the judgement. Tomorrow, on this account send your SAR & your CAA [aslong as you are making payments they can't ask for more money]. As for the other accounts. Do your SAR on these accounts, they have to send you all data held on these accounts. We got statements from when the account was opened in 1992. Be prepared for a shock, the debt will be higher then you expect, the CCJ debt will be frozen, these accounts will be accruing interest. Debs

Hi, Be careful before doing any CCA requests. If you can afford these very small payments, then you need to be aware of what may happen if you do start questioning the debt. They may retaliate by demanding higher payments, or worse they may call in the whole debt. The payments you are making, were they negotiated directly with the lender, a payment plan or a court judgement ? The CCA request is a way of finding out if the lender can enforce the debt in court. No credit agreement, no debt. But if they do provide a true signed copy of your agreement with all the terms & conditions, then you'll have to pay up. Perhaps a different route to begin with, the debt is large, is it possible that any of the debt is made up of interest & charges which may be considered illegal. You could do a SAR first, & see what comes back. good luck Debs

hi has anyone looked at this www.fsa.gov.uk/pubs/final/rbs_12dec.02.pdf It would appear that the banks failure to retain records & evidence of identity when new accounts are opened constitutes a breach of the Money Laundering Act ,section 7.3.2[1]. In 2002 the FSA fined the RBS £750,000 for failing to keep adequate records of accounts opened. Does this mean if they fail to provide a Credit agreement with the correct address, name, & signature, aswell as not complying with a CA Request are they breaching the Money Laundering Act aswell. I also now know who to contact about the audit carried out on our accounts in 1999, something that CMS Telford did not want us to Know. Accounts are monitored by RBS Group Internal Audit["GIA"]. Anybody else had dealings with them ? Debs

Paul, When we wrote to CMS in April, we asked many questions regarding the management of our accounts. But one of the points we raised was the value of the debt on our router accounts, we asked RBS, "Can you confirm where this information came from and is this the figure that you provide in your accounts to Companies House as an asset of the banks?" To date they have not responded. How do we find out which figure they are using,the true value of the debt [the figure at judgement less payments made] or the router account debt [ debt at judgement less payments + interest & solicitors fees]. Can we SAR the banks auditor or accountants to find the truth ? If they are using the router accounts, does this mean they illegally inflating thier balance sheet, deceiving shareholders & the city ? Debs

It is complicated, but I will try to clarify our position. We were told in Nov 97 that the account numbers had changed because our business current accounts[which were Overdrawn], had been moved from our local branch to Edinburgh. We have discovered in our SAR, that these new accounts were infact opened 24 June 96, our original overdraft accounts were closed 27 june 96.The "new" accounts had become Loan capital & interest accounts.At no point did the RBS tell us what they were doing.They were also withholding statements. NO AGREEMENT HAS EVER EXISTED FOR THE ACCOUNTS CONTAINED IN THE CCJ. They are not stored away, they have not been destroyed, they cannot be recreated. We never gave the bank permission to alter the accounts from current accounts to loan accounts. Surely if the bank can legally do this, then it must be contained in the original agreement when we opened our business account, & the agreement when we were given the Overdraft facility? Debs

So, the RBS have a secret bunker somewhere, is this were they'll hide when the **** hits the fan, perhaps Sir Fred is already there. The truth is more simple, but they won't admit it, they don't have your original agreement, in all probability it was destroyed years ago in one of there cost cutting exercises. I think they can recreate your agreement, but without your signature they can't enforce it in court.If I'm wrong someone will correct me. Debs

hi, Send a private pm to jon. He'll confirm this for you. Debs

Tell us about it:eek:. Problem is we took advice from a "cheap" solicitor about 3 years ago, I came away from that meeting in tears, & gave up ever resolving our debt with the RBS. Then we discovered this site,& from what we've learn't from CAG, she didn't have a bloody clue about consumer law & gave us totally innaccurate advice. Yep, there not cheap, but as they say, you get what you pay for. It's a shame, but there aren't many Solicitors who understand consumer law. good luck Debs

One word, INCOMPETENCE. They haven't got a clue. From now on send Your letters directly to :- The Data Protection Manager Retail Regulatory Risk 2nd Floor Business House B RBS Gogarburn PO Box 1000 Edinburgh EH12 1HQ Enclose a copy of your origonal CCA Request. Also to this dept, do your SAR, & enclose your £10 PO/cheque.For this payment they HAVE to send you ALL statements you require for your account. Debs

PGH7447 is right, seems your paying this company for something you can now do yourself. Don't leave yourself with these debts indefinetly. Do your SAR & CA requests on all these debts, see what comes back & keep us updated. When we did our SAR on the RBS it showed "irregularities" in the way our accounts were being managed, & they had been supplying there solicitor with "innacurate" information in order to enforce the debt. Since finding this site we've discovered we were not alone,& are taking our fight to court. Although I mentioned an IVA, I personally wouldn't recommend this route. Good luck Debs

Tread carefully if your going to make the offer, perhaps tell them the offer is coming via a family member offering you help to resolve this. Taking into account that you are only paying £20 month, they may consider this, its probably costing them more than this to manage your account. Don't offer the full £2k, to begin with.Start with a much lower offer, expect it to be rejected & work your way up. Good luck

Its a tricky one for you, carry on paying £20 a month & hope they don't come after you for more money. If the debt is frozen, & you are paying in accordance with there agreement, I would continue with the payments. However, with the risk that they may come after you for more money in the future, you may want to find a way to resolve this. Good luck Debs

Sent you PM. Hope it helps Deb

I think your right to be concerned. Since you set up this payment plan, have you been recieving any statements or paperwork about the debt. Do you know exactly what your current indebtedness is? Debs

Ok, tomorrow send your Consumer credit agreement request , include a postal order for £1 to Link. They have 12 + 2 working days to comply with your request.They will need to send you a True, signed copy of your origonal credit agreement with Lloyds ,incl all T&C's, & interest. Once the time is up, the debt is now in dispute. Basically until they come up with this agreement, they can't phone you, they can't add interest & charges, they can't chase you until they provide proof that this is your debt. Debs

hi, again a CCA is your consumer credit agreement with Link. Debs

If you want to continue with payments send the cheque for what you can pay, explain why it is this amount, be it a reduced amount, And also stress that you are not happy [infact really really upset] with the fact that your offer was rejected on the phone[ date & time included], & the conduct of there staff, & don't ever correspond with me over the phone ever again, or else. There are template letters on this site about harrassment from DCA's. Stress that if they cash your cheque, they are accepting this as payment & will not proceed with legal action.Keep a copy & send it recorded delivery. Debs

I hope so. I only wish this site had been around 10 years ago. If only we had known prior to our CCJ that the accounts had been "altered", but back then if you questioned the accounts, the RBS ignored you. They won only because of our ignorance, never again. all for one, & one for all Debs

By the way Tiglet, you maybe showing off but your not very helpful . Perhaps some constructive advice would be more helpful then patting yourself on the back for my possible mistake. Debs

Ok, so does that mean if they persue this debt[for the OD account] in court they don't have to provide any documuments proving the debt is valid ,or they can insist you pay off an overdraft immediatley in accordance with there T&C's, as prescribed when you opened the account & took out the overdraft, but don't have to provide any proof that you were aware of these T&C's. Deb

Hi,stevo I'm sorry to here your story, I know from personal experience how such a large debt can affect your life. There are lots of people on this forum who can really help with legal advise,but I will try & help from my own experience. Ok,your paying money each month, when will you have these debts written off? With an IVA its 5 years regardless of how much you owe, what exactly have you paid £800 for, & £30 mnth for 3 years? Personally I'd be really p...... off with this company, & would look into whether or not you've been misold an arrangement. If the figures don't add up, you have no assets... bankcruptcy might not be such a bad idea, but you still have time, after all Northern Rock will get ZERO £'s if you take this route,perhaps you should tell them . I'm concerned, you say you owed £42k, but if these debts aren't regulated under an IVA [frozen], then they are probably still accruing interest & rising daily. Have you had any statements to confirm your current indebtedness? Debs .

OK, from what I've read on this forum, negotiations over the phone never work.These people must take courses in upsetting people & lying,when they phone don't accept the call, hang up. From now on all correspondence should be done in writing, and sent recorded delivery. Keep copies of everything, there are template letters on this site that you can send. Don't be bullied or upset by these people, use this site & become empowered. Debs

OK Your origonal accounts that you setup, that you agreed too, the loan & overdraft currently have a balance of Zero. So no debt owed on these accounts. The NEW accounts,which have been set up by the bank,[sound familiar to anybody] are the ones with the debt. Can anyone explain how they are going to enforce these accounts in court? Deb

An authorised overdraft is still a form of credit, and is regulated by the consumer credit act. Also the RBS are saying it is being managed in accordance with there Terms & Conditions, unless they provide the paperwork....you just don't Know whats going on with the account. Send your CA & your SAR. If they don't provide the correct SIGNED agreement, which includes the T&C's, they cannot enforce this debt in court.It's that simple.Until they comply the debt is in dispute, they can't add interest, they can't pass it to a DCA,they are F*****. Debs

You can still ask for a posteponement while you request details of the CCJ. Debs