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    • Indians, traditionally known as avid savers, are now stashing away less money and borrowing more.View the full article
    • the claimant in their WS can refer to whatever previous CC judgements they like, as we do in our WS's, but CC judgements do not set a legal precedence. however, they do often refer to judgements like Bevis, those cases do created a precedence as they were court of appeal rulings. as for if the defendant, prior to the raising of a claim, dobbed themselves in as the driver in writing during any appeal to the PPC, i don't think we've seen one case whereby the claimant referred to such in their WS.. ?? but they certainly typically include said appeal letters in their exhibits. i certainly dont think it's a good idea to 'remind' them of such at the defence stage, even if the defendant did admit such in a written appeal. i would further go as far to say, that could be even more damaging to the whole case than a judge admonishing a defendant for not appealing to the PPC in the 1st place. it sort of blows the defendant out the water before the judge reads anything else. dx  
    • Hi LFI, Your knowledge in this area is greater than I could possibly hope to have and as such I appreciate your feedback. I'm not sure that I agree the reason why a barrister would say that, only to get new customers, I'm sure he must have had professional experience in this area that qualifies him to make that point. 🙂 In your point 1 you mention: 1] there is a real danger that some part of the appeal will point out that the person appealing [the keeper ] is also the driver. I understand the point you are making but I was referring to when the keeper is also the driver and admits it later and only in this circumstance, but I understand what you are saying. I take on board the issues you raise in point 2. Is it possible that a PPC (claimant) could refer back to the case above as proof that the motorist should have appealed, like they refer back to other cases? Thanks once again for the feedback.
    • Well barristers would say that in the hope that motorists would go to them for advice -obviously paid advice.  The problem with appealing is at least twofold. 1] there is a real danger that some part of the appeal will point out that the person appealing [the keeper ] is also the driver.  And in a lot of cases the last thing the keeper wants when they are also the driver is that the parking company knows that. It makes it so much easier for them as the majority  of Judges do not accept that the keeper and the driver are the same person for obvious reasons. Often they are not the same person especially when it is a family car where the husband, wife and children are all insured to drive the same car. On top of that  just about every person who has a valid insurance policy is able to drive another person's vehicle. So there are many possibilities and it should be up to the parking company to prove it to some extent.  Most parking company's do not accept appeals under virtually any circumstances. But insist that you carry on and appeal to their so called impartial jury who are often anything but impartial. By turning down that second appeal, many motorists pay up because they don't know enough about PoFA to argue with those decisions which brings us to the second problem. 2] the major parking companies are mostly unscrupulous, lying cheating scrotes. So when you appeal and your reasons look as if they would have merit in Court, they then go about  concocting a Witness Statement to debunk that challenge. We feel that by leaving what we think are the strongest arguments to our Member's Witness Statements, it leaves insufficient time to be thwarted with their lies etc. And when the motorists defence is good enough to win, it should win regardless of when it is first produced.   
    • S13 (2)The creditor may not exercise the right under paragraph 4 to recover from the keeper any unpaid parking charges specified in the notice to keeper if, within the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which that notice was given, the creditor is given— (a)a statement signed by or on behalf of the vehicle-hire firm to the effect that at the material time the vehicle was hired to a named person under a hire agreement; (b)a copy of the hire agreement; and (c)a copy of a statement of liability signed by the hirer under that hire agreement. As  Arval has complied with the above they cannot be pursued by EC----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- S14 [1]   the creditor may recover those charges (so far as they remain unpaid) from the hirer. (2)The conditions are that— (a)the creditor has within the relevant period given the hirer a notice in accordance with sub-paragraph (5) (a “notice to hirer”), together with a copy of the documents mentioned in paragraph 13(2) and the notice to keeper; (b)a period of 21 days beginning with the day on which the notice to hirer was given has elapsed;  As ECP did not send copies of the documents to your company and they have given 28 days instead of 21 days they have failed to comply with  the Act so you and your Company are absolved from paying. That is not to say that they won't continue asking to be paid as they do not have the faintest idea how PoFA works. 
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    • Hello,

      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

      Car was dirty and test drive was two circuits of roundabout on entry to the showroom.  Was p/x my car and rushed by sales exec and a manager into buying the mini and a 3yr warranty that night, sale all wrapped up by 10pm.  They strongly advised me taking warranty out on car that age (2017) and confirmed it was honoured at over 500 UK registered garages.

      The next day, 18/1/24 noticed amber engine warning light on dashboard , immediately phoned BMW aftercare team to ask for it to be investigated asap at nearest garage to me. After 15 mins on hold was told only their 5 service centres across the UK can deal with car issues with earliest date for inspection in March ! Said I’m not happy with that given what sales team advised or driving car. Told an amber warning light only advisory so to drive with caution and call back when light goes red.

      I’m not happy to do this, drive the car or with the after care experience (a sign of further stresses to come) so want a refund and to return the car asap.

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    • Housing Association property flooding. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/438641-housing-association-property-flooding/&do=findComment&comment=5124299
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    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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Son of Steven4064 vs NatWest ***WON***


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Son of Steven4064 (let's call him Steven4065) sent SAR on 14th December and got all his statements within 4-5 days but nothing else.

 

Sent a reminder on 2 January pointing out that they had until 25th January to comply fully with his request. Letter copied to Data Protection Manager (Alex Lyons) in Edinburgh.

 

From the statements it looks like the claim will be over £1500.

 

 

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We received the following reply yesterday:

 

"DATA PROTECTION ACT 1998 I write in response to your letter dated 2 January 2007.

- Manual Intervention

With reference to your request concerning any 'manual intervention' to the administrative charges debited, these charges have been processed in accordance with the terms and conditions of our current agreement with you as a result of the activity on your account. In the event that you breach the terms and conditions, we will take the appropriate action, contacting customers when appropriate, or handling customer enquiries regarding their account status. When a customer has raised a concern in relation to this process, the decision will be communicated to the customer and where appropriate noted on the account.

If you have any problems please do not hesitate to contact us at the above address.

Yours sincerely,

Joyce E Tudor-

Retail Regulatory Risk"

 

 

 

Reminded MsTudor that they have util 23rd to answer the question properly or we'll apply for a court order. See what delaying tactics they try next.

 

 

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Reminded MsTudor that they have util 23rd to answer the question properly or we'll apply for a court order. See what delaying tactics they try next.

 

I understand your frustration, but I wouldn't apply for a court order at this stage, if that is your intention. Stick to the plan, and follow the step-by-step guide contained within this forum. Any judge will need to see that you are being both 'fair and reasonable' when dealing with this matter. It will save a lot of red-faces in the long run:)

Either way, good luck.

:DSUCCESSESS:D

NATWEST01&02 won over 4k

See how

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/natwest-successes/31683-muggins73-natwest.html

 

:)CURRENT CLAIMS:)

HALIFAX03

19-SEPT-07 APPLICATION TO HAVE STAY LIFTED

02-OCT-07 APPLICATION REFUSED

LLOYDS TSB04

10-MAY-07 LBA

 

ABBEY05

19-SEPT-07 LBA

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Would you credit it? (probably yes)

 

They have replied by sending exaclty the same letter again! Anyway, muggins73, we'll take your advice and go straight to the initial request for payment, rather than applying to the court for the missing information (that there have been no manual interventions). Presumably, we can always refer to this unhelpfulness on the N1 (can we?), if we get to that.

 

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

Letter from Stu this morning with a whole load of self-justification and a pile of brochures with terms and conditions for all sorts of Nat West offeings.

 

After wading through the guff there is, as a gesture of goodwill, an offer of £1415.00 in full and final settlement.

 

This is everything we asked for except for £157 interest and in response to our Initail Request for Repayment.

 

Seems Nat West is on the run.

 

Steven

 

 

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However...

 

there is a sting in the tail. After waffling on about how wonderful they are in providing all their wonderful services for free they say,

 

"Whilst many of our services are provided without a corresponding charge, we do make charges when customers, by their actions, request an increase to or the creation of an overdraft in excess of their previously agreed limit. By reviewing such requests we provide an additional service to customers, in many instances allowing items to be paid either by creating or increasing an overdraft. These charges can be avoided entirely by arranging suitable borrowing facilities in advance."

 

Now that begs a whole load of questions: If I go overdrawn beacuse they slap an unlawful charge did I really 'request' it (perhaps I was just 'asking for it'). And do they really review my account every time I go overdrawn - I think not. (and if they do, how much does it cost - I bet we'd all like to know that!) And if they really do, why so coy about manual interventions?

 

Then the sting...

 

"Any charges that properly accrue in the future will be applied to your account in line with our published tariff and in accordance with your agreement with the bank. Should you be unwilling to accept any such charges, then we may need to consider if we are prepared to continue to provide you with your existing banking facilities. Instead we may offer you a simple account that does not offer borrowing facilities or other services that can result in charges."

 

Well of course, I don't mind (well almost not) paying charges that 'properly accrue', but that's the whole point, isn't it?

 

We were thinking of accepting the offer (even though it doesn't include interest) but it seems in so doing we would effectively be agreeing to pay their unlawful charges in the future. On another thread NATTIE said we couldn't sign away our rights - quite right too. So, how should we proceed?

 

I am beginningto think we should carry on, accept the offer as a partial offer only, and go for the rest so that we get an unconditional offer. What does anyone else think?

  • Haha 1

 

 

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Hi

 

This is exactly the same letter as I got. I asked for charges plus contractual at 29%. They offered charges, but no interest, so I have written back offering to accept charges plus s69.

 

Awaiting response.

 

This is a new tactic by Nat West and does have some implications especially for new claims. It will be up to each individual to decide if they think it is worth going through the whole court process to try to get s69 or contractual and I get the feeling reading thro the posts on this site that the courts are not always sympathetic to claims for contractual.

 

If you are confident of your claim then you have to decide if the time and effort is worth it for the interest!

 

This gets interesting!

Bicester1

 

MBNA WON £623

:)

GM Card Won £580

:)

Nat West CC Won £525.08

:)

Nat West Bank Won £2346.60:)

Lloyds PPI LBA

Barclaycard defence received. Trial date 30th July. Barclays missed deadline for servicing and filing of their bundle! Going to try for strikeout or summary disposal

HBOS about to issue N1

LLoys Bank LBA

 

I am not a lawyer. Get trained professional advice if unsure of your legal position. If my advice is helpful please tip my scales!

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I think that getting the interest or not is now secondary. The implications of them trying to get us to agree to future charges is the sinister element that has come in. This also seems to be a new tactic.

 

It will be that rather then the interest that makes us press on I think so that we can get an offer wit hno strings attached.

 

Steven

 

 

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Ah, so that is how the new account I heard of a few months ago is going to work, No direct debits and no standing orders allowed and only atm withdrawal card. Now i did think it was for this reason and now i see it in black and white. By the way the first bit of the letter, re service is part of new t&c's effective from 1st February 2007

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So the booklet they sent me (NWB 3773 December 2006) contains new T&Cs. It lays out all the unlawful charges VERY clearly (p12) and very helpfully.

 

NATTIE, what is your opinion on post 8. Am I right to continue to get an offer with no strings. I know what they are trying to do but, surely, getting us to effectively sign to accept the charges in the future doesn't make them any more lawful. And there is an implied 'or else' in there too. Or else what?

 

Also, the sentence about reviewing informal overdraft requests is obviously nonsense. But further, it is an attempt to deceive us into believing they do something for the money they take. I think that one could argue that the two things (deceptive claim to provide a 'service' and the attempt to 'persuade' us to accept the charges 'or else') probably constitute an abuse of position and hence are an offence under s4 of the Fraud Act 2006, or are dangerously close to doing so.

 

I am thinking of writing to the CEO of NatWest along these lines and pointing out that his staff (Stu et al) are putting him in a position where he personally could be prosecuted under s12 of the same act.

 

 

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Hi

 

Yes like the Fraud Act! Would be very interesting to see the response.

 

Bicester1

 

 

MBNA WON £623

:-)

GM Card Won £580 :-)

Barclaycard LBA :-x

Nat West Bank offer received negotiating :p

Nat West CC offer received negotiating :p

Lloyds PPI prelim:wink:

 

 

Any advice is given informally. I am not a lawyer. Consult a trained professional if unsure of your legal position. If my advice is helpful please tip my scales!

Bicester1

 

MBNA WON £623

:)

GM Card Won £580

:)

Nat West CC Won £525.08

:)

Nat West Bank Won £2346.60:)

Lloyds PPI LBA

Barclaycard defence received. Trial date 30th July. Barclays missed deadline for servicing and filing of their bundle! Going to try for strikeout or summary disposal

HBOS about to issue N1

LLoys Bank LBA

 

I am not a lawyer. Get trained professional advice if unsure of your legal position. If my advice is helpful please tip my scales!

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so sir fred Goodwin head of RBS GRoup plc limited. The non formal request is in the new T&C's leaflet sent out in statement insert November December and January. My personal opinion has always been that contractual interest is a difficult one to argue but each to their own. You can cross out conditions and return it to NatWest but always keep a copy

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The interest on our claim is the actual interest charged by NatWest on the overdraft when the overdraft consisted entirely of charges. That doesn't seem unreasonable. We have certainly not claimed contractual interest on all teh charges whatever as some are trying.

 

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

Quick update. Sent Letter before Action on 17 Feb but unfortunately (stupid me!!!) left the date the same as for the initial request for payment - 27 January. Nat West responded with an identical response to the one they sent in reposnse to the initial request except that it said, "Thank you for your letter of 25 January..."

 

So we have degenerated into complete confusion!

 

We have decided that the best thing to do is to ignore the last 2 letters and send the LBA again with the correct date. The 14 days now ends on 31st March.

 

 

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We (hubby & I) both sent initial request letters 20.02.07. Hubby got an offer last week £1700 (£90 less than claimed) and has accepted. They haven't replied to any of my letters so sent LBA 7th March. Think they are bogged down and won't have noticed your duplicate!

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Let's hope we don't just go round in circles.

 

On another tack, (see http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legalities/56427-theft-act-15a-there.html) I am thinking of sending the follwoing to the CEO of RBOS group (owners of Nat West):

 

Sir Fred Goodwin

The Royal Bank of Scotland plc,

36 St Andrew Square,

Edinburgh,

EH2 2YB

 

Dear Sir Fred,

 

My son has recently been in correspondence with the Customer Relations department of Nat West with a view to reclaiming charges imposed on his account for unauthorised overdrafts and refused direct debit payments, which he, along with many others, believe to be unlawful. In his latest response, Stuart Higley says the following,

 

Whilst many of our services are provided without a corresponding charge, we do make charges when customers, by their actions, request an increase to or the creation of an overdraft in excess of their previously agreed limit. By reviewing such requests we provide an additional service to customers, in many instances allowing items to be paid either by creating or increasing an overdraft.”

 

The Nat West booklet NWB3773 spells out that a charge is applied to the account of a customer who makes an “informal request” for an overdraft by inadvertently going overdrawn, etc, or indeed by going overdrawn because of a charge imposed on the account by the bank itself. The above paragraph implies that someone reviews this “informal request” as part of the services offered by the bank. Now everyone knows that no one does any such thing. All that happens is that the computer automatically imposes the penalty charge. This paragraph is dishonest, and the dishonesty is an attempt to justify an unlawful act (the imposition of a penalty for breach of contract) by the bank.

 

I would like to draw your attention to section 4 of the Fraud Act 2006, which say that an offence has been committed if a person

 

(a) occupies a position in which he is expected to safeguard, or not to act against, the financial interests of another person,

(b) dishonestly abuses that position, and

© intends, by means of the abuse of that position—

(i) to make a gain for himself or another, or

(ii) to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.

 

Section 12 of the same Act says that if the offence is committed by a corporate body with the consent of “a director, manager, secretary or other similar officer of the body Corporate” then that officer is also guilty of an offence and liable to be proceeded against.

 

Now it seems to me that Mr Higley’s letter could be putting you and other directors of Royal Bank of Scotland group in a position where you might be open to prosecution under this Act since Nat West is obviously in a position where it is expected to safeguard customers’ financial interests and, as I pointed out above, Mr Higley’s letter constitutes dishonest abuse of that position with a view to making a gain for the bank and causing a loss for the customer.

 

I felt that you ought to be made aware, if you are not already, of the possible consequences of actions by your staff.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Steven4064

 

Any comments anyone?

 

rolleyes.gif

:rolleyes:

 

 

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steven4064

I've got a comment that may or not be of consequential help I dont know, but reference your third paragraph, I would think that their staement may be hard to prove as dishonest, but I think you would have a better chance of proving "Negligent miss-statements" which is covered by the Libel Act, under the New Libel Act it is no longer necssary to prove damage. Have a look at the New Act it might be useful it might not.

 

I think they are making negligent miss statements.

 

sparkie1723

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Don't worry steven.......... nearly there now mate!!! Good luck, hedgey xxx :p

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