BigHoordo V RBOS

[BigHoordo]

OK. Have got my statements and am adding up the charges.

[BigHoordo]

Have gone through one of my RBOS accounts, a Royalties Gold Current Account.

 

Have charges of £2652.35. When I put the interest into the spreadsheet I got from this site it came up with interest of £227.27 (although I don't understand how it was calculated and I have not put in a figure for interest free overdraft since I have no idea what it might be).

 

So do I just fire off the template letter asking for £2879.62 back please. Surely it can't be as simple as that?

[brightestsparkler]

Surely it can't be as simple as that?

 

It is as simple as that just follow the instructions & copy the template letter adding what you need to where.

 

Make sure you keep a record of your timelines/timescales when next stage is due etc makes life a little easier

 

I've done it - so can you

 

Good luck - not that you'll need it

[stevokenevo]

It is as simple as that just follow the instructions & copy the template letter adding what you need to where.

 

Woh Woh, slow down, it is not as simple as that.

 

The interest you are claiming, is it excess overdraft interest, contractual interest, or judicial interest?

 

when sending your prelim or LBA letters, you send a schedule of charges. This schedule details the charges you are reclaiming.

It does not include interest at this stage, unless you are claiming contractual interest, in which case you would have decided which interest rate you are going to charge them and why.

 

If you have decided to go for the 8% judicial, this is added at the court stage when you are issuing your claim, and not before.

 

As it is stated clearly in the FAQ's and step-by-step instructions, trying to reclaim judicial interest at prelim or LBA stages will show the bank you dont know what you are doing, and lead top them making things as difficult and awkward as possible for you.

 

Hope this has cleared things up for you and not posed to many new questions ;-)

[BigHoordo]

OK. So it is not quite as simple as that.

 

Going through the Dave's step b step instructions. I am OK till I come to this section

 

Having received either a summary of charges, or copy statements, and calculated your charges (plus any overdraft interest which you can show was caused solely by those charges - not general overdraft interest), enter them into one of our spreadsheets in the Library. This will also calculate a further kind of interest (at 8%) but this is not reclaimable at this early stage and is for future reference only.

 

I put all charges into the spread sheet. The spread sheet also asks for interest charged and the balance of the account when interest is charged then seems to work out a figure which I is a proportion of the interest charged if overdrawn, or zero if in credit. I am guessing that the figure represents the proportion of interest that relates to charges.

 

Suppose my question is can I claim for all charges that have be made and all interest that comes out of the spread sheet calculation.

 

Would be happy to give copy spreadsheet or send it to someone if that would help.

 

Sorry to be such a big hoordo about all this. I have spent a few days reading through the faqs and tutorials and other peoples postings and am still finding it a little confusing. All info I find seems to be very near what I am looking for but not quite spot on.

 

Any help appreciated.

 

 

Woh Woh, slow down, it is not as simple as that.

 

The interest you are claiming, is it excess overdraft interest, contractual interest, or judicial interest?

 

when sending your prelim or LBA letters, you send a schedule of charges. This schedule details the charges you are reclaiming.

It does not include interest at this stage, unless you are claiming contractual interest, in which case you would have decided which interest rate you are going to charge them and why.

 

If you have decided to go for the 8% judicial, this is added at the court stage when you are issuing your claim, and not before.

 

As it is stated clearly in the FAQ's and step-by-step instructions, trying to reclaim judicial interest at prelim or LBA stages will show the bank you dont know what you are doing, and lead top them making things as difficult and awkward as possible for you.

 

Hope this has cleared things up for you and not posed to many new questions ;-)

[stevokenevo]

ok, it sounds like you have got it pretty sussed. No need to stress ;-)

 

from what i can gather, you have done everything correct so far, and i would go ahead and fire off othe prelim letter for the charges + the overdraft excess interest (which you have calculated).

 

I jumped in because i wanted to make sure you hadnt got mixed up, there are so many people who make mistakes at the early stages, and the earlier you catch it the better, but as far as i can see everything is cool.

 

Now, on the other hand, why are you NOT claiming contractual interest. It can make quite a difference to the size of your claim!?

[BigHoordo]

Couple of questions.

 

1. I have totaled ALL charges. Should I not be subtracting legitimate charges? And how would I know which charges are legitimate and which not?

 

2.Contractual interest. I saw someone else talking about using a contractual interest rate of 29% which would bring my claim up to £4405.52. What are the drawbacks of trying for contractual interest as well?

 

ok, it sounds like you have got it pretty sussed. No need to stress ;-)

 

from what i can gather, you have done everything correct so far, and i would go ahead and fire off othe prelim letter for the charges + the overdraft excess interest (which you have calculated).

 

I jumped in because i wanted to make sure you hadnt got mixed up, there are so many people who make mistakes at the early stages, and the earlier you catch it the better, but as far as i can see everything is cool.

 

Now, on the other hand, why are you NOT claiming contractual interest. It can make quite a difference to the size of your claim!?

[stevokenevo]

1. I have totaled ALL charges. Should I not be subtracting legitimate charges? And how would I know which charges are legitimate and which not? You should be reclaiming excess(unauthorised) overdraft fees, returned direct debit fees, returned cheque fees etc the charges that are usually between £25/£39. you cant reclaim any monthly account charges or charges for services like your royalties etc.

 

2.Contractual interest. I saw someone else talking about using a contractual interest rate of 29% which would bring my claim up to £4405.52. What are the drawbacks of trying for contractual interest as well? i Have claimed contractual and won against halifax, and am doing so again against halifax and capital one. There are no drawbacks. The difference is if claiming contractual you have to claim it in your prelim and LBA letters. You should do a search around the site for the theory behind contractual interest. I used the principal of mutuality and reciprocity as my argument for why i was entitled to it. and charged the halifax 29.8% which is they're unauthorised borrowing rate, and capital one 34.9% which is they're typical APR on a classic visa card.

 

Hope this helps

[BigHoordo]

Hope this helps

 

Can anyone help me identify which charges I can reclaim. I can see that I can reclaim the charges marked "unpaid items" and "referal charges". There are a lot of charges on my account that are not easy to identify. For example here is a bit of my spread sheet;

 

1. REFERAL CHG APR £30.00

2. CHG TO 16MAY £28.00

3. CHG TO 16MAY £7.91

4. REFERAL CHG MAY £60.00

5. CHG TO 16JUN £28.00

6. CHG TO 16JUN £11.12

 

Now I presume I claim lines 1 and 4. No quibble, thats £90 straight off. But what about those other charges. There is no indication what they are for. I understand that there is a legitimate (though expensive) monthly charge for running the account. Looking at the rbos site today the say you can have all the benifits of that go with this Royalties Gold Account for £12 per month. So I presume that some of the charges on lines 2,3,5&6 are to do with legitimate monthly charges that I can not claim. How do I know if they are all legitimate? Do I just presume they are and forget about them?

 

Any help appreciated. My brain hurts.

[stevokenevo]

1. REFERAL CHG APR £30.00 Reclaim these

2. CHG TO 16MAY £28.00 Reclaim these

3. CHG TO 16MAY £7.91

4. REFERAL CHG MAY £60.00 Reclaim these

5. CHG TO 16JUN £28.00 Reclaim these

6. CHG TO 16JUN £11.12

 

The other amounts are your royalties charges.

[BigHoordo]

1. REFERAL CHG APR £30.00 Reclaim these

2. CHG TO 16MAY £28.00 Reclaim these

3. CHG TO 16MAY £7.91

4. REFERAL CHG MAY £60.00 Reclaim these

5. CHG TO 16JUN £28.00 Reclaim these

6. CHG TO 16JUN £11.12

 

The other amounts are your royalties charges.

 

Thanks stevokenevo.

 

Have decided not to bother trying to figure out what proportion of the interest I have been charged can be reclaimed since this looks like quite a small proportion f the money they stole from me.

 

I am interested in claiming contractual interest. My understanding is that if they took money out of my account when they shouldn't have then as well as getting that money back I can claim the same amount of interest on that money from the date that they took it out as they would charge me if I took their money. Problem is I cant find out what rate they charge me at to charge them the same. Can't find their charges or intrest rates anywhere on their web site. Does anyone know what they charge?

[stevokenevo]

it would be there unauthorised borrowing rate you would be looking for, usually around the 29-30% area.

I cant look for it just going to fives ;-)

[BigHoordo]

Right. Have worked out which charges I think are illegal. Have not bothered with interest charged me but have worked out contractual interest at RBS unauthorised overdraft rate and charged them for it.

 

Copy of my Letter. We'll see what happens.

 

Thanks for all the help so far

 

 

 

The Royal Bank of Scotland PLC

Customer Relations

Customer Central Support

First Floor

The Forthstone

56 South Gyle Crescent

Edinburgh

EH12 9LE

 

 

 

 

14th June 2007

 

 

 

 

Request for repayment of charges

 

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

 

Account Number: XXXXXXXXXX Sort Code: XX_XX_XX

 

 

 

 

My request

 

 

I am writing to ask you to refund to me the charges which you have levied from my account between 2nd January 2004 and 16th Apr 2007.

 

 

I now understand that the regime of fees which you have been applying to my account in relation to direct debit refusals, exceeding overdraft limits and so forth are unlawful at Common Law and contrary to consumer regulations. If you say that they are not, then will you please demonstrate this by letting me have a full breakdown of the costs to which you have been put by as a result of my breaches, in order to reassure me that your charges really do reflect your costs.

 

 

Additionally, it has now been confirmed that your particularly high level of penalties are considered to be unfair per se by the OFT who reported on the 5th April 2006 and are therefore presumed to be unlawful in the absence of specific proof to the contrary.

 

 

Your responsibilities

 

 

I would draw your attention to the terms of the contract which you agreed to at the time that I opened my account. It is an implied term of that contract that you would conduct yourselves lawfully and in a manner which complies with UK law.

 

 

I am frankly shocked that you have operated my account in this way as I had always reposed confidence in your integrity and expertise.

 

 

I consider that your repeated representations that your charges are fair and reasonable are deceptive and that they have deceived me into agreeing to pay them.

Your concealment of the true nature of your charges has prevented me from asserting my right until now.

 

 

What I require

 

 

I calculate that you have taken £2,370.00 inappropriately from my account and enclose a schedule of the charges which I am claiming with this letter. In addition, I also claim Contractual Interest (compounded) under the principle of mutuality and reciprocity in our contract. As you have taken unlawful charges from my account, this constitutes unauthorised borrowing – thus, the rate of Contractual Interest used is the bank’s unauthorised borrowing rate. The standard rate of unauthorised borrowing set by the Royal Bank of Scotland is 29.84% therefore this rate is added to the above amounts and the breakdown is shown on the enclosed schedule. I calculate the Contractual Interest element (to 14th June 2007) at £1,488.66. and therefore request that you make a

payment to me to the sum of £3,858.66.

 

 

 

 

My targets to resolve this matter

 

 

I hope that you will enter into a sincere dialogue with me about this matter and I am writing this letter to you on the assumption that you will prefer to do this than merely respond with standard letters and leaflets.

 

 

I will give you 14 days to reply to me accepting, unconditionally, my request in principle and letting me know a date by which I will receive payment.

 

 

If you dispute that I am entitled to a refund of these charges, I request that you forward within the above mentioned time scale, a copy of the Terms and Conditions that were in force at the time my account was opened, and any subsequent amendments to those Terms and Conditions. These are requested under CPR Pre-Action Protocol 4.6©, and failure to provide them will be brought to the attention of the court, should it be necessary to commence a court action.

 

 

If you do not respond, or you do not respond positively, within this time period, I shall send you a letter before action giving you a further 14 days in which to reflect. I believe that these targets are more than sufficient for a large company such as yours with dedicated staff and departments.

 

 

After that, there will be no further communication from me and I shall issue a claim at the expiry of the second deadline.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

XXXXXXXXXXXXX

[stevokenevo]

I calculate that you have taken £2,370.00 inappropriately from my account and enclose a schedule of the charges which I am claiming with this letter. In addition, I also claim Contractual Interest (compounded) under the principle of mutuality and reciprocity( in our contract ) i would remove this bit. As you have taken unlawful charges from my account, this constitutes unauthorised borrowing – thus, the rate of Contractual Interest used is the bank’s unauthorised borrowing rate. The standard rate of unauthorised borrowing set by the Royal Bank of Scotland is 29.84% therefore this rate is added to the above amounts and the breakdown is shown on the enclosed schedule. I calculate the Contractual Interest element (to 14th June 2007) at £1,488.66. and therefore request require? maybe that you make a

payment to me to the sum of £3,858.66.

 

looks good to me, i would think about the minor changes above.

 

your interest calculation though, seems a little low actually, what spreadsheet did you use? the one you should have used is here

 

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=p6Z9Po15m9HZN6idg8HZCIQ

 

you may well have used the right one already, just in case though

 

[BigHoordo]

 

looks good to me, i would think about the minor changes above.

 

your interest calculation though, seems a little low actually, what spreadsheet did you use? the one you should have used is here

 

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=p6Z9Po15m9HZN6idg8HZCIQ

 

you may well have used the right one already, just in case though

 

 

Thanks for the advise. I missed the post office this morning so couldn't send registered. This gives me a chance to make the suggested alterations to the letter, suggestions that seem very sensible to me by the way.

 

As to the interest I copied the data for my spreadsheet into the google one you suggested it dit come out at a few hundred more. Think part of the reason that it is so low is that the claims don't go back a full five years. The earliest is Jan 04 so my claim is weighted towards later years, missing out the high paying early years.

 

I made my ownspreadsheet using my own formula. I checked with another spreasheet used on this site, not the one you suggested and discovered it used the same formula so went with it. I think, and I know as a total Hoordo I am going out on a limb here, that the formula in the google spreadsheet is wrong.

 

the formula I used for compound interest is

 

T=P(1+r)^n

 

where

P is the principal (what you start of with)

r is the rate of interest

n is the number of times you compound it

T is the total you have after you do the calculation

 

so to take a simple example if you have £10 for 3 years at 10% per year then you work out

 

10(1+0.1)^3

 

which I get to be £13.31

 

This seems to make sense since I can work out in my head that

at year 0 I have £10

at year 1 I have £11 (£10 + 10% of £10)

at year 2 I have £12.10 (£11 + 10% of £11)

at year 3 I have £13.31 (£12.10 +10% of £12.10)

 

so far so good.

 

RBS say that they charge 2.2% per month for unauthorised borrowing which they say equates to an APR of 29.84%

 

The formula in the google spread is (using my notation)

 

T=P(1+(r/365)^n)

 

where

P is what you start with

r is the annaul percentage rate and

n is the number of days

 

This seems to work out a daily rate and compound interest daily.

 

Now I have read elsewhere that banks compound daily. But the problem is that the daily rate is not simply the APR divided by 365. it is actually less than that.

 

For example looking again at the RBS rates, they quote 2.2% per month as being equivalent to 29.84 per year. If the daily rate was APR/365 then the monthly rate would be APR/12. In this example 29.84/12 = 2.49 which is in excess of the 2.2% that RBS say they charge.

 

If I have £100 and and charge interest of 2.2% per month over 12 months. Using my compounding formula this gives me

 

(1+.022)^12

 

which I get to be

 

£129.84

 

which is the £100 I started out with plus £29.84 i.e. an APR of 29.84% which ties in with what the bank says.

 

Now I am willing to believe almost anything about the bank and would love to charge them more but if they say that they charge me at 2.2% per month would I have any justification for charging them more.

 

If there is any justifiction, or I have made a mistake in my calculations I would appreciate someone ointing it out because I want to charge them for every penny I can.

[stevokenevo]

did anyone see the bears game?

[BigHoordo]

19th June finally posted off my initial request for payment, with a couple of ammendements suggested by steokenevo, recorded delivery to customer suport in edinburgh. £2370 in charges and £1502.08 contractual interest

[BigHoordo]

Got a letter from that nice Sandy Watt, sated 20 June '07

 

Dear BigHoordo

 

Thank you for your recent letter regarding the fees on your account.

 

We are currently considering your claim. Given the work involved in assessing your claim we anticipate that we will be in a position to respond within 6 - 7 weeks, but we will endeavour to do so sooner if we are able to.

 

Yours sincerely

Sandy Watt

Customer Relations Support Unit

 

 

Delaying tactics or what?

[stevokenevo]

delaying tactics, although that was certainly a speedy response you received! prepare your LBA and post it bang on the 14th day

[BigHoordo]

Proposing to send of this LBA tomorrow unless anyone has any suggestions.

The Royal Bank of Scotland PLC

Customer Relations

Customer Central Support

First Floor

The Forthstone

56 South Gyle Crescent

Edinburgh

EH12 9LE

4th July 2007

LETTER BEFORE ACTION

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

ACCOUNT NUMBER: XXXXXXXXXX Sort Code: XX-XX-XX

 

 

I am very disappointed that you have failed to pay to me the monies requested in my letter of 18th July 2007.

 

I now understand that the regime of 'fees' which you have been applying to my account in relation to direct debit refusals, exceeding overdraft limits and so forth are unlawful at Common Law and contrary to consumer regulations.

 

I would draw your attention to the terms of the contract which you agreed to at the time that I opened my account. It is an implied term of that contract that you would conduct yourselves lawfully and in a manner which complies with UK law.

 

I am frankly shocked that you have operated my account in this way as I had always reposed confidence in your integrity and expertise.

 

I calculate that you have taken £2,370.00 inappropriately from my account and enclose a schedule of the charges which I am claiming with this letter. In addition, I also claim Contractual Interest (compounded) under the principle of mutuality and reciprocity. As you have taken unlawful charges from my account, this constitutes unauthorised borrowing – thus, the rate of Contractual Interest used is the bank’s unauthorised borrowing rate. The standard rate of unauthorised borrowing set by the Royal Bank of Scotland is 29.84% therefore this rate is added to the above amounts and the breakdown is shown on the enclosed schedule. I calculate the Contractual Interest element (to 4th July 2007) at £1,546.65. and therefore request that you make a payment to me to the sum of £3,916.65.

 

I require repayment in full of this money and if you do not comply fully within 14 days, i.e. by 17th July 2007 then I shall begin a claim against you for the full amount plus interest plus my costs without further notice.

 

You are also reminded of my request that you forward a copy of the Terms and Conditions that were in force at the time my account was opened, and any subsequent amendments to those Terms and Conditions. These are requested under CPR Pre-Action Protocol 4.6©, and your continued failure to provide them will be brought to the attention of the court, should it be necessary to commence a county court action.

 

Furthermore, I shall submit a Consumer Credit Act 1974 complaint to the OFT upon the basis that you have failed to comply with the OFT's direction of 5 April 2006 and are therefore not a 'fit and proper person' to hold a consumer credit licence under the 1974 Act. If you do not understand what this means then seek advice from your legal department.

Yours faithfully,

BigHoordo

[stevokenevo]

looks cool, go for it

[BigHoordo]

OK.

Nothing since my LBA.

Suppose what I need now is A, but what action.

I kind of thought that since I live in scotland that the FOS would be my best route. Looking at the FOS site today I see they have put things on hold because of the test case.

Any thoughts about my options now?