Claiming beyond 6 yrs - important new information!!!

[TANZARELLI]

hi imgoingtoget allcharges back from hsbc, but the only info i have is the address i used to live at, i know this should'nt be a problem as i have done this with a couple of other banks. but is there a template for this?

 

 

I would go into your local branch and get them to give you the account numbers etc, HSBC did for me.

 

Tanz

[TANZARELLI]

alibobsy,

 

I am doing exactly that currently, however I have also managed to get a new charge so this means there is a current one in the pot too.

 

Tanz

[TANZARELLI]

No the interest rate is not on the statements.

 

Any ideas on what rate I could use?

 

See here: Woolwich - Rates and Charges

 

27.5% is Woolwich/Barclays current unauthorised rate I would use that.

 

JMHO

 

Tanz

[TANZARELLI]

Just had a squis on their website like you suggested. lol

[TANZARELLI]

 

Concealment amounts to a question of the morality of the defendant's action. Once this is established then I do not believe that the courts will strive to give them any help.

I understand from Zootscoot that this view is also confirmed by case-law.

 

 

Could I please have the links for this case law please Bankfodder/Zootscoot?

 

Thanks.

 

Tanz

[TANZARELLI]

Sheldon v. R.H.M. Outhwaite (U/W Agencies) Ltd.

 

It is the first part of the statement to which the case law relates to.

 

Thanks Zootscoot had already got that one, just wondered if I was missing any others.

 

Have you got any of these?

 

Fea & Another v Roberts

 

Brownlie v Campbell (1880)

[TANZARELLI]

The Sunday Times, 27 May 2007 editorial 'Dirty, rotten banks'.

 

That will be this that you are referring to:

 

Dirty, rotten banks-Comment-Leading Article-TimesOnline

 

Tanz

[TANZARELLI]

Hi ds

 

 

I think that CAG really needs to get the letter templates, POC templates and all the other bit into the library to avoid confusion for claimants, I know this is prob work in progress but due to some of the cases that have been thrown out etc lately it is all the more important for members to have some good examples to your as a starting point.

 

Has there been any news as to when this will happen, as in BF's post #1 it was suggested:

We will be amending templates and so forth in the coming days

 

Tanz

[TANZARELLI]

Hi Tanz,

That would be brilliant if there were some letters & POC templates as I feel at the moment lost and confused and very alone.

 

So far I have taken Bongs POC and have changed it slightly but still feel that it needs more work and in light of that case falling down on the limitation acts lots of help and support is definately needed in this area if we are to suceed not just for me but for all CAG'ers who want to go further back.

 

My problem is that on my actual claim about 80% of it is over 6 years ago so I need a very strong POC, with no gaps!!!!

 

Maybe someone will come and help me!!!!!

DS

 

Do you have T&C's for the account ds?

 

When was it opened?

 

Remind me which bank you are with?

 

Also can you pm me the POC? I will have a peek for what its worth.

 

I think part of the reason for the claims being thrown out was due to arguements not being fully stated.

 

ie if you can show through the T&C's of when you opened your account that the charges were for breach of contract (failing to have sufficient funds in the account caused a charg, and have T&C's to prove they have now concealled the charges by cloaking/veiling them as a service charge, your proof would be changes to the wording in the recent T&C's. This coupled with the OFT findings and that they continue to charge you after this was discovered by you gives IMHO a strong arguement for section 32 to come into play. You can also add that fact you beleive they have misrepresented the nature of the charges etc.

 

Tanz

[TANZARELLI]

The account was with the Halifax and was opened as a joint account prior to 1995 and in fact I believe it could have been opened as early as 1990. The account was closed by them in Oct 06 or that is when they sold the balance of the account to capquest. It was only Capquest that sent me the statement going back to 1997, but the account was definately opended long before that. Most of the majority of charges on this claim is at least 80% before 6 years. We cannot find the original file so no we do not have T & C's. Do you know someone that has or should I write to them for a copy.

 

I will let you have a look at the POC when we finally get it all together.

Many thanks for your offer of help.

DS

 

Not that far back I have Halifax Cardcash Conditions March 1999.

[TANZARELLI]

dsilverstein/tanzarelli

 

I've not got the hang of CAG web-site, yet! Am I right that Bankfodder depositons 'definitive'? I would like some thing definitive when the principal sells off the debt, to a third party 'Capquest' must be some issue of bonafide.

 

I had a contemporary, whereat a third party unbeknown to her, had run up a BT telphone bill to over £4k in one quarter, yes one quarter, where previously it would have been around £100. Pursued by a so called 'international' firm of debt collectors. She referred to the 'principal' BT, Sir IanVallance, never heard any thing more from the 'international' debt collector & heavy handed tatics! Interestingly I believe this trigerred a soft ware package, whereat BT now send a warning when an account appears to be running in historic excess.

 

Yours truly awaitng Financial Ombudsman Service, any one out there any experience? I note a proliferation of 'firms' offering 'no win, no fee' any feed back, moreso solicitors/counsel oferring 'pro bono'?

 

Not sure what your asking but if you want info on debt or the sale of debt to a DCA then start a thread in one of these links and ask your question in there:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collectors-debt-collection/

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bailiffs/

 

HTH

 

Tanz

[TANZARELLI]

Can anyone tell me what I should write officially on my court form in response?

 

I need to send the court form back to the court and to Nationwide today. Advice urgently needed!!!

 

Many thanks,

Erica

 

PS The reason why the dates now go beyond six years is because NW were so slow sending statements, time to take to court etc...

 

 

What court form are you referring to?

[TANZARELLI]

Hi Bunnie here, I am new to this site so I hope I get this right, I have statements going back to 1994. I put in a claim with Barclays Bank and they came back with a settlement offer, I called them to negotiate a deal because the amount was no where near what I am claiming, It turns out that the bank will only go back 6 years so to 2001. The chap asked me where I was getting my figures so I said I have statements going back to 1994 he said ah we calculate only back 6 years and said it wasn’t set by the bank as to how far back anyone could claim it was the government. Is this true and how do I claim back all my charges back to 1994? I hope all that makes sence.

 

Thanks in advance for any advice

 

Bunnie

 

Hi Bunnie,

 

Section 32 of the Limitations Act 1980 states:

 

32.--

· (1) .... where in the case of any action for which a period of limitation is prescribed by this Act, either-

· (a) the action is based upon the fraud of the defendant; or

· (b) any fact relevant to the plaintiff's right of action has been deliberately concealed from him by the defendant; or

· © the action is for relief from the consequences of a mistake;

· the period of limitation shall not begin to run until the plaintiff has discovered the fraud, concealment or mistake (as the case may be) or could with reasonable diligence have discovered it. ....

· (2) For the purposes of subsection (1) above, deliberate commission of a breach of duty in circumstances in which it is unlikely to be discovered for some time amounts to deliberate concealment of the facts involved in that breach of duty. . . .

(5) Sections 14A and 14B of this Act shall not apply to any action to which subsection (1)(b) above applies (and accordingly the period of limitation referred to in that sub-section, in any case to which either of those sections would otherwise apply, is the period applicable under section 2 of this Act).

 

This is what we use to keep claims in the primary limitation period. However it is not just a case of adding this into our Particulars of Claim and expecting it to get allowed. We need to argue this should apply and the arguements are that we beleive the Banks have deliberately concealed this information from us or the other arguement is that we mistakingly pais the charges believing them to be lawful. You will need to read up on this if you are going to attempt a claim like this. This thread from the start is a good place to start.

 

Also look here:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/hsbc-bank/33005-bong-hsbc-contractual-interest.html

 

also here:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/3598-do-you-have-charges.html

 

Also here:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/66227-limitation-act-1980-s32.html

 

Tanz

[TANZARELLI]

Hi all

can anyone tell me please what the authorised borrowing rate is for the cooperative business bank, decided to alter my POC to include unauthorised and authorised as well as county court act 8% but because I was only ever charged unauthorised dont know what the authorised rate is... Many Thanks...GC

 

Co-operative Bank - Charges

[TANZARELLI]

Do you really know this for a fact, or is it more hearsay from the bank staff?

 

There may be better advice from my 'more learned friends', but I would say assume nothing and ask for everything! Do not go in assuming any prior knowledge about their archiving regime - it could damage your case and allow them to take advantage.

 

I have had 12 years of statements from barclays, and their letter confirmed thats all they hold it for. Its prob longer but that is what they seem to be going by.

 

Tanz

[TANZARELLI]

Cheers Tanz - was just making sure b_t_j wasn't getting suckered in by some corporate line

 

No probs.

[TANZARELLI]

Thanks For The Anonymous Click

[TANZARELLI]

Thanks for the click chez Not sure if this post will make it to the big screen, but thanks anyway.

 

Tanz

[TANZARELLI]

Could anyone please tell me what this paragraph is from?

 

 

c) The Defendant has concealed, and continues to conceal that the charges debited are unlawful. If this is not the case, and the Defendant truly believes that these charges are lawful, then the Claimant contends that the Defendant is mistaken. As the Claimant only became aware during February 2006 that the charges debited were unlawful, then section 32(1 Xb), or section 32(1 )©, of the Limitation Act 1980 should apply, and the charges debited are therefore within the primary limitation period.

Thanks

 

It has been used by many as part of a POC or witness statement and the last half should read:

 

As the Claimant only became aware during February 2006 that the charges debited were unlawful, then I hold that section 32(1)(b), or section 32(1)©, of the Limitation Act 1980 should apply, and that therefore, all of the charges debited fall within the primary limitation period.

Tanz

[TANZARELLI]

Aquags

 

Good luck with this one, it has an unusual twist.

[TANZARELLI]

Catlover,

My claim included several charges which were outside six years from the outset. Barclays settled in full with no quibbles.

 

 

Same goes for me £140 outside six year rule.

[TANZARELLI]

Congratulations!!!

 

Which bank was this?

 

LTSB

[TANZARELLI]

Has anyone got the corrrect details for what i need to put in and to use in filling in the court claim form for claiming over 6 years.

 

All help appreciated.

 

43154

 

First I suggest you do some reading around various threads also have a look at the limitation act section 32.

 

You need to prove they have deliberately concealed the unlawful charges or knowingly witheld information form you.

 

LIMITATION ACT 1980

1980 CHAPTER 58

PART II EXTENSION OR EXCLUSION OF ORDINARY TIME LIMITS

Fraud, concealment and mistake

Royal Assent [13 November 1980]

Limitation Act 1980, Ch. 58, s. 32 (Eng.)

32 Postponement of limitation period in case of fraud, concealment or mistake

 

(1) Subject to [subsections (3) and (4A)] below, where in the case of any action for which a period of limitation is prescribed by this Act, either--

(a) the action is based upon the fraud of the defendant; or

(b) any fact relevant to the plaintiff's right of action has been deliberately concealed from him by the defendant; or

© the action is for relief from the consequences of a mistake;

the period of limitation shall not begin to run until the plaintiff has discovered the fraud, concealment or mistake (as the case may be) or could with reasonable diligence have discovered it.

References in this subsection to the defendant include references to the defendant's agent and to any person through whom the defendant claims and his agent.

(2) For the purposes of subsection (1) above, deliberate commission of a breach of duty in circumstances in which it is unlikely to be discovered for some time amounts to deliberate concealment of the facts involved in that breach of duty.

(3) Nothing in this section shall enable any action--

(a) to recover, or recover the value of, any property; or

(b) to enforce any charge against, or set aside any transaction affecting, any property;

to be brought against the purchaser of the property or any person claiming through him in any case where the property has been purchased for valuable consideration by an innocent third party since the fraud or concealment or (as the case may be) the transaction in which the mistake was made took place.

(4) A purchaser is an innocent third party for the purposes of this section--

(a) in the case of fraud or concealment of any fact relevant to the plaintiff's right of action, if he was not a party to the fraud or (as the case may be) to the concealment of that fact and did not at the time of the purchase know or have reason to believe that the fraud or concealment had taken place; and

(b) in the case of mistake, if he did not at the time of the purchase know or have reason to believe that the mistake had been made.

[(4A) Subsection (1) above shall not apply in relation to the time limit prescribed by section 11A(3) of this Act or in relation to that time limit as applied by virtue of section 12(1) of this Act].

[(5) Sections 14A and 14B of this Act shall not apply to any action to which subsection (1)(b) above applies (and accordingly the period of limitation referred to in that subsection, in any case to which either of those sections would otherwise apply, is the period applicable under section 2 of this Act).]

 

[TANZARELLI]

Got what I expected from the FOS, it said that the banks were suspending any payouts until the test case was resolved - they went on to explain about the test case and what it was. They asked me to put my signature on a form just to give them permission to take up the case again as soon as the test case is over (They could not give me any idea how long that may be).

 

So as far as I can see, there is nothing more I can do until the bank gets back to me about the letter I sent them refusing to give them back their offer of "Goodwill" - and I'm sure they will.

 

You need to forget the FOS and file a claim with the local county court, then when the stay is ordered make an application to have it removed.

 

Tanz

[TANZARELLI]

Not sure about that lizzy you'll have to ask a mod, maybe not though.