Credit AGREEMENT -or- APPLICATION? RBS Advantage Card

[joneshousehold]

Certainly is, but that's more to our advantage than theirs!

[davefirewalker]

Hi Louis wu.

have a look at my post 307 is the agreement the same ?

 

do the maths does the agreement add up ie does the payment term x payments = loan amount (eg 36 months at £100 = total loan £3600)

were there any fees added before interest?

 

ive just had welcome write off a loan because the agreement wasnt any good

 

Dave

[Guest louis wu]

Hi dave, I remember your post well.

 

Believe it or not, it was the first thing I done, and the maths do add up!

 

I have read as much as I can, and the points I mentioned were the only ones I could find wrong

 

1 No T&C’s

2 2 references to ‘clauses overleaf’ – it’s a 1 sided copy, no clauses supplied.

3 2 illegible areas (small in size, but illegible nonetheless)

4 (very picky clutching at straws time) APR not expressed as a %, just stating this, ‘A.P.R 12.4’ (assume I am no financial expert, 12.4 what?)

5 A ‘right to cancel’ section explaining details will be sent later….No details ever received. Quote ‘Once you sign this agreement, you will have a short time to cancel it. Exact details of how and when you can do this will be sent to you by post by us’.

 

 

I am just hoping that somewhere in there is enough 'doubt' that would cause a judge to rule in my favour/or cause the DCA enough doubt as to whether they should continue to persue me. I would consider doing a 'deal' with them to reduce the amount to an agreeable (by me) level.

 

In my mind, they have clearly not fullfilled the CCA request, but as to going beyond that, I'm just a bit unsure at the moment

 

Louis

[InKogneeToh]

Good morning all.

 

If you could spare a few minutes to look at this I would be grateful.

 

I have requested a copy of my CCA under s77. regarding a loan taken out 3 years ago.

 

The 1 page copy I have received HAS the following

 

1 A fixed loan amount.

2 Interest rate

3 Rate/frequency of payments

4 Creditor and debtor signatures (with dates)

5 Document headed as ‘credit agreement regulated by CCA act 1974’ signature box has the same heading (I think its safe to assume that this is an agreement and not an application:( )

 

 

I was a bit disappointed with that, so I examined the document and found these (some is a bit picky)-

 

 

1 No T&C’s

2 2 references to ‘clauses overleaf’ – it’s a 1 sided copy, no clauses supplied.

3 2 illegible areas (small in size, but illegible nonetheless)

4 (very picky clutching at straws time) APR not expressed as a %, just stating this, ‘A.P.R 10.6’ (assume I am no financial expert, 10.6 what?)

5 A ‘right to cancel’ section explaining details will be sent later….No details ever received. Quote ‘Once you sign this agreement, you will have a short time to cancel it. Exact details of how and when you can do this will be sent to you by post by us’

6 Several references to ‘sharing info’ with other organisations including CRA’s (I am going to look back to earlier references to this in the HUGE CCA thread (somewhere about page 110 I think), as I remember reading something about this not being correct.

 

 

I know the important points are included, I am just wondering if anyone has any thought as to the merits of continuing the ‘discussion’ with the DCA regarding the rest. I am picking up speed on this, but could not put a reasoned argument in front of a judge (YET), but given a few more weeks I think I could give it a go, but obviously, it needs to be a genuine argument, and not just ‘having a go for the sake of it’. I do wonder though, if the DCA will have any idea what I am talking about if I buy some time and learn the act, will they simply let it go, or is that wishful thinking?

 

Any thoughts much appreciated.

 

 

Louis

 

Hi

 

Are you able to scan and post up the copy of the doc they have sent you or even photograph it and upload to your PC?

 

It's difficult to give an opinion without seeing the doc. Also, where did you sign this agreement, at home or on the trader's or creditor's premises?

 

Regards, Pam

[InKogneeToh]

I have told one of my creditors that I am no longer interested in S77/78 other than the fact that they haven't fully complied. What they have supplied has highlighted to me that they hold faulty documentation. I shall need to see the signed copy to confirm that they do hold an enforceable agreement and it is this I am now requesting. The whole 1983 Regulations is a smokescreen. This has now moved on.

I also quoted from the letter someone posted on the CCAA thread (Peterbard?) from Ian Macartney, the Consumer Minister who said

 

No response as yet but you could do something along similar lines

 

Hi,

 

In cases like Rinky's (and presumably yours) where the creditor is insisting that the T&C copy document they are sending is a copy of the executed agreement, AND admitting in writing that the application form is just that (an application), then they have well and truly stitched themselves up IMO, because all of the prescribed terms/other required info/statutory statements MUST be in the signature document and they will never be able to produce in court a copy of that T&C document that has been signed by the creditor and debtor!

 

I can't wait to see how they respond to your last letter in light of this!

 

Regards, Pam

[rinkydinkydoo]

Neither can I, I wonder if they will reply as fast to the next letter.

[davefirewalker]

Hi all

I wonder if someone can help ME??

 

just been looking at an RBS loan spread across 3 pages. it looks to me like all the stuff is there

 

but I have signed on the last page and all the good stuff is on page 1

 

I suppose that it is ALL one document so it doesnt matter what page the sig box is on.

 

the only things on the sig page are

t&c

my sig

their sig

ppi stuff

right to cancel

cca rights to terminate etc

 

thats all

 

the copy is quite poor but could post it for thoughts

 

anyone ?

 

Dave

[The Lantana]

Davefirewalker, as I understand it the regs require all the key terms to be on the signature page. I read 'page' somewhere rather than 'document' but can't actually find my original source. Subsequently, on the Behemoth thread, Peter Bard told me the regs stipulate the key terms must be on the signature page. I haven't a copy of the particular regs (1983/1553 I think) to check for myself though.

 

Regards

 

Lantana

[davefirewalker]

thanks will check "THE thread "

 

Dave

[InKogneeToh]

Hi Dave

 

See the OFT doc I sent you. This is explained on Pages 7/8 in the cancellable agreements doc, starting with this:

 

Some terms must always be contained in the signature document as described under the heading ‘What the agreement must contain’. But any other term of the agreement can be recorded either in the signature document or in another document referred to in it.

 

Regards, Pam

[The Lantana]

Pam

 

Please excuse my delay in coming back on s62 / s63.

 

The definitions section of the act defines 'executed agreement' and 'unexecuted agreement' but doesn't define 'not properly executed agreement' or 'improperly-executed agreement'

 

However...

 

s62 (3) and s63 (5) say: A regulated agreement is not properly executed if the requirements of this section are not observed.

 

And then we have:

 

's65 Consequences of Improper Execution

 

s65 (1) An improperly-executed regulated agreement is enforceable against the debtor or hirer on an order of the court only.'

 

 

 

Effect of s62 / s63 and s65

 

If you have an improperly executed agreement because the creditor hasn't signed it then, IMHO, this is of real value if a 'court order' to enforce an agreement is different from a 'County Court Judgement'.

 

It would mean the creditor invites me to court seeking his CCJ, I point out to my learned friends that I was not obliged to keep to the agreement because the agreement was improperly executed. The Judge therefore orders me to keep to the terms of the agreement in future, rather than awarding a CCJ against me. And presumably I shouldn't face costs either.

 

That assumes the Judge accepts the creditors argument that failing to sign the agreement is no big deal - if the creditor offers such a defence. Alternatively the Judge could wipe out the debt.

 

Any defaults etc. should be removed.

 

Alternatively, once the creditor becomes aware of his breach, he could serve an executed agreement on me, then if I wasn't able to keep to that he could go for his CCJ.

 

Regards

 

Lantana

[ncf355]

I'd say something along the lines:

 

.............

 

I look forward to hearing from you further, but be advised you still haven't complied with my section 78 request and as such any attempt to enforce the alleged agreement will incur a fine of £2500.00.

 

...........

 

 

Hi M55,

 

which document contains the details of the £2500 fine for attempted enforcement of an ?improperly executed/unenforceable? agreement?

 

I'd like to include this in some letters but want to be able to quote the chapter and verse to my 'friends' in the financial institutions

 

Thanks for any help

 

NcF

[Guest Battleaxe]

Standard scale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

The Criminal Justice Act

[ncf355]

Cheers for that!

[Guest Battleaxe]

I always include the hard copy in my letters to my friends the Banks, to keep them focused on what they are supposed to be doing.

[FANTASY CHARGES]

Hi M55,

 

which document contains the details of the £2500 fine for attempted enforcement of an ?improperly executed/unenforceable? agreement?

 

I'd like to include this in some letters but want to be able to quote the chapter and verse to my 'friends' in the financial institutions

 

Thanks for any help

 

NcF

 

 

this one looks a bit more official

 

http://www.cans.org.uk/index.php?id=26&tx_cans_pi1%5Bsection%5D=1&tx_cans_pi1%5Bnote%5D=16&tx_cans_pi1%5Bparagraph%5D=numbered_52

[Guest Battleaxe]

Same thing, but the Wikipedia print out is straight from Butterworth the Law Manual used by the courts

[Guest louis wu]

Hi

 

Are you able to scan and post up the copy of the doc they have sent you or even photograph it and upload to your PC?

 

It's difficult to give an opinion without seeing the doc. Also, where did you sign this agreement, at home or on the trader's or creditor's premises?

 

Regards, Pam

 

 

 

I have spent the last 2 hours trying to work out how to scan this page and transfer it here, and I cant do it. (Hangs head in shame:( ), I somehow managed to email it to myself (you know, like Rodney in Only Fools and Horses) without meaning to, only for it to disappear. I have asked my 5 year old for a few I.T. lessons, and I'm booked in for next Monday.

 

To answer the question, though, I signed at home.

 

Louis

[redsue]

Louis Wu - all you need to do is go to Image hosting, free photo sharing & video sharing at Photobucket and open up an account for yourself.

You then upload your image to photobucket - this is all very easy to do and explained clearly on photobucket.

Once the image is uploaded photobucket gives the image an IMG code - you simply copy the IMG code into the CAG forum - and bingo!

Its really easy to do - it must be cos I managed to do it!

[davefirewalker]

Hi pam re post 360. the trouble i'm having is the terms are in the signature document....... but not on the signature "page"

 

is the document classed as 1 page or the whole lot ?

 

must look into this again...

 

Dave

[Guest louis wu]

redsue, thanks.

 

I'll get my 5 year old on it straight away:-)

 

Louis

[dpick]

hi all have just had a reply from MBNA re CCA request

 

1, copy of original Sonycard/BOS application form so small it's not legible

2, copy of original Sonycard/BOS credit agreement so small it's not legible and cannot check what it actually contains

3, MBNA terms and conditions thought they should be on agreement and be Sonycard not MBNA

 

Will be having a visit this month from family tame legal eagle will post her comments when she has seen my thread and all letter and replies

 

Would be happy to have any comments.

 

dpick:mad:

[Guest louis wu]

 

This was the reply to my CCA request made to DCA

 

The top left hand corner is illegible, some of the customer decleration is illegible and it looks as though something has been erased next to the underlined CUSTOMER DECLERATION statement.

 

All fields blocked out are correctly filled in, signed and dated.

 

NO T&C's

 

2 Refernces to clauses overleaf (single sided copy)

 

Right to cancel box promising further letter, none supplied.

 

No % sign next to APR figure (very picky I know)

 

I signed this document at home

 

 

 

I have SAR'd the original lender but have some time remaining until they need to respond.

 

Any thoughts

 

Thanks

 

Louis

[The Lantana]

Louis

 

IMHO, this is a valid enforceable agreement - sorry.

 

I think the fact that there is no % sign is unlikely to be considered a big deal by the Judge (but I could be wrong here). Also, though you never received the cancellation letter, did you chase them up at the time? Abbey / DCA will presumably say one was sent.

 

Regards

 

Lantana

[InKogneeToh]

Hi pam re post 360. the trouble i'm having is the terms are in the signature document....... but not on the signature "page"

 

is the document classed as 1 page or the whole lot ?

 

must look into this again...

 

Dave

 

Hi

 

This is a difficult one. Definitions I have found as to the meaning of 'document' suggest that it can be more than one single piece of paper and the CCA does not define it.

 

My opinion is that the signature should be on the same page as the prescribed terms but you might need to write to TS or OFT for their answer to this, just to be sure.

 

Regards, Pam