RedDeath v LloydsTSB

[RedDeath]

Well here it is my very own thread to keep a track of my claim against lloyds.

 

First underhand behaviour has already happened. Went into the branch in Perth and asked for a copy of statements. The lady was in the process of doing it right there and then for me when the manager intervened. He asked me what i was needing it for and i replied confidential, he then asked if it was for bank charges and i said yer. He then told me I had to write a letter for it. I suggested he gave me pen and paper and I would do i right there. So i did...

 

This was a couple of days ago. Since then i decided to ask for a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) and went into the branch to ask for the Data Protection Officer. I knew the answer (or thought I did) just felt like winding them up a bit.

 

The lady at the cashier read my account and told me that I had to speak to a manager to get the address. I questioned it but was told it was protocol. 25 minutes the edit appeared. He asked me why i needed it and i simply replied "confidential". He then came back and told me that they would write to me and i had to reply to the letter. Stood my ground and told him that by law he had to disclose the address or I would complain to the information commisioner. The guy wasn't too happy and eventually gave me the address.

 

So the SAR was sent together with a PO for £10. Royal mail special delivery so that I can track when they get it. Hopefully just after christmas. From online statements i counted £4218 (jesus was i really that bad) but considering I had 2 old accounts with them as well the sum could hit £6k. Mexico here i come!

 

Since the first day though they have phoned me 3 times asking for £77 overdrawn. Thankfully get paid tomorrow but told them that i do not want to take inbound calls as i don't trust them. Still i am getting the calls. Coincidental or just because i raised the SAR? Anyway one option is a harassment letter but i'll wait a little longer before royally ****ing them off.

 

In the meantime it is my understandment that a scottish small claims court would only go up to £750. So now thinking of claiming in england, but even then the figure is 5k. I feel more than one claim coming on. Also as its an english court i can claim 6 years back. Hopefully this will settle out of court so i won't have to make my journey south.

 

So here it is, good luck to all of you in the claims process, stick to your guns and don't accept settlements. All or nothing!

[RedDeath]

Ahh thanks Gary, was still looking into that. So i take it I can now claim the full amount within a scottish court?

 

Also, depending on the total sum though i might as well try the english banking system as i believe Lloyds TSB are registered in England.

[RedDeath]

Another event with this dumb bank.

Yesterday I got paid, but when i went to pay for petrol I got informed that my card had been declined. Luckily I always fill up in the same place so the guy allowed me to come back today, but when i went to the cash point to check my balance it would not autorise a balance check. So armed with attitude I went to my branch. I tried the cash point again but it swallowed up my card so I went to have a word with the main desk.

 

THe lady could not tell me why i could not take cash out, she went and checked and after 20 minutes informed me that the department that deals with it does not accept inbound phone calls and that she could only communicate via email. Fantastic!!

 

Luckily (i use the term vaguely and sarcastically) I was allowed to take out some cash. Enough for the week but I am not happy at having to carry £300 on me. Now can i claim for the disterss that all this has caused? Probably not knowing the (edit)****** that they are.

 

What I noticed on my statement though was that they charged me £10 for a copy of statements. Now I haven't told them they could, they certainly haven't sent me any statements yet, as my S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) included a £10 PO. Also, I have received a form for a SAR request from them, asking for £10 and informing me that they do not have the facilities to withdraw the money from my account so I would have to send them a cheque. CONFUSED.

 

Now my SAR request and their form are overlapping in the post. I take it that the template is sufficient information for the SAR. However, I am completely baffled as how they could take that £10 off me.

(edit) figure about 5.5 K in bank charges to date. I swear I am gonna fight for every last penny of it. Grrrrrrrrrrrr

[RedDeath]

Yeah thumbs, I agree, its a case of sorting out the paper trail. When I originally went to the bank for the statements I wasn't expecting to get them, i thought that as the letter was handed in at the branch it could have been "lost".

 

I am surprised though that they debited my account for £10 especially as their documentation says that they don't have the facilities for this. Anyway, my first request was for one account, i traced a 2nd account I had with them and to my surprise even a 3rd one. So the proper SAR I sent had details of all 3 accounts.

 

I suppose as long as I get all the statements it will be ok in the end, but you are right, a proper paper trail should be established from the beginning. I will write them a letter querying what has happened. It seems to me though that since I asked for the statements they have become very difficult to deal with. Good luck with your battle, and yes, time to go for the jugular!!!

[RedDeath]

Ok, I think the paper trail is sorting itself out. With regards to the £10 fee that was added to my statement I received my statements for one account for the last 6 years. Total so far £3833.50 (the interest on this will be sooo goood).

 

Also awaiting reply on the SAR. Royal mail site has confirmed that they have received the letter, now to wait for the remaining 2 accounts. I hope they hurry up, I really could do with this money by the end of February!

[RedDeath]

Ok just an update on the claim.

Phoned the DSAR team responisible for statements and they have confirmed receipt of my S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) on the 28th December. THey have since passed this on to their "paperwork" department, so it is in hand.

 

At this stage I have decided to charge compound interest and am going to be sending a letter to the bank asking what their authorised and unathourised overdraft rates have been over the last 6 years.

 

I am taking photoman's lead and argue mutuality with them. So I will charge interest at 24% ish. Will calculate what their charges were at the time of the claims and charge compound interest on the charges. The claim could end up close to the 10k mark. I must be crazy but I am going to take them for every single last penny.

[RedDeath]

Hi Gary & Paula,

I have just read (well scanned) Lucid's thread. I will be reading it over and over again just to get things right. Charging compound interest at 29.86% would inflate my claim to around 12k. Well 4k so far with compound is 9.5k, plus 2 other accounts it makes it over 12k. Jesus!!! How i could use the money. This is a quick win site right??? Ok, kidding.

 

Lucid made a valid point though. A case would not be thrown out of court because its too high, but because interest may have been calculated wrongly. Yes, she makes a very strong case, so I better prepare myself for a fight.

 

I do however think that a fixed rate of 29.86% while valid, is a bit over-rated, and by claiming mutuality, then I should be asking for the same rates that they have applied to my account. So yes, Gary, the Lloyds TSB site should have the last 4 years of interest rates, but in the interest (he he no pun intended) of fairness then I should be going down the 6 year road.

 

I guess things are complicated a little further in my case as I live in Scotland so I should only go for 5 years, unless I claim at Lloyds's home court and go for 6.

 

This is gonna be a long battle, but I am just going to stand my ground. Mutuality, that is all I ask for. Now...might just scan around to see what i can spend my 12k on!!!!

[RedDeath]

Hi Paula,

I will check Elsinore's thread, thanks for that. I have read in detail a few of the threads so far and the more I think about it the more I am going to push for the full whack. If it means court then so be it, after all I am asking for the same interest that they have applied to my account when I went into an unauthorised overdraft.

Been to the bank today to ask for interest rates and the manager has been really cool. I told him that I was planning on suing for charges and he was quite sympathetic. He said that he had to phone a "historic" interest department and that they would fax the details to him. He has also managed to pick up a copy of the T&C and phoned me up to say I should be able to pick them up tomorrow lunchtime. What a nice chap. Now to wait for my statements, in the meantime its time to put together a spreadsheet to calculate this compound complex interesty thingy.

[RedDeath]

Thanks again Paula, I work with spreadsheets as part of my job so I guess once I have a template in place I can then pass it on to others. In the meantime I have just thought up a new question for myself.

 

The following thread http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/rbs-bos-successes/49470-contractual-interest-details-case.html has been very usefull, and i am slowly but surely reading and re-reading every paragraph. I still have about 3 weeks before Lloyds send me the remaining of my bank statements, but in the meanwhile it would be useful to compile a sheet in the same sort of format.

[RedDeath]

Hello again everyone, god I think I am spending a life time on this forum. Suppose the end justifies the means....

 

Ok, I am set on going for compounded contactual interest, the same rate as the banks, and the basis of my agreement will be mutuality. I have done some research and these are some notes I have put together. I would appreciate if someone could comment on the validity of these.

 

The idea of freedom of contract is central to enforcements of contracts and it runs through many of the individual rules of contract law:

• An agreement (offer and acceptance) is said not to exist unless there is consensus ad idem, the so called mutuality of the parties. So even so the parties think that they have agreed on something, there will be no enforceable contract between them unless this mutuality can be shown. The law prevents one party from forcing goods and services on another party without an actual agreement to take them. This is apparent in common law rules on acceptance as well as in statutes such as the Unsolicited Goods and Services Act 1971.

As the law of contract has developed, however, it has been recognised that the parties to a contract cannot be given unlimited freedom and the law has in many instances intervened to give greater protection to the parties. There are a number of reasons for this:

• It is recognised that very often the parties are of unequal bargaining strength and therefore one party would be able to dictate the terms of the contract, possibly at the expense of the weaker party.
  
• Particularly since the middle of the twentieth century, judges, Parliament and, more recently, the European Union have all concerned to give greater protection to consumers to avoid them being taken advantage of by unscrupulous businessmen in contracts that are driven more by the profit motive of businesses rather than the individual needs of consumers.
  
• It would be unfair to allow one party to take advantage of the other party’s mistake or to take advantage of a falsehood, or to coerce one party to enter the contract against his will.
  
• In certain instances either the courts or Parliament have recognised that it is unacceptable or inadvisable for parties to enter specific types of contract.

• In the case of exclusion causes the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999, first introduced as the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1994, regulate consumer contracts to prevent unfair advantage being taken of the consumer. The effect of the regulations is that the party dealing with the consumer cannot insert advantageous terms into contracts where there is no comparable term in favour of the consumer. The regulations implemented EU Directive 93/13, The Unfair Terms In Consumer Contracts Directive.

A contract is perfectly formed:

· A mutual agreement

· Supported by consideration by both parties

· With an intention to create legal relations.

 

The way that I am understanding this is that for a contract to be in place (agreement on T&C and the fact that a signature was required on the T&C (i.e why include a signature if there is no contract?)), then there has to be mutuality by consensus ad idem. Now if this was not the case then wouldn't the bank be in breach of contract and if so, what would the implications to the bank be?

 

As usual all advice is greatly appreciated.

[RedDeath]

Hi Paula,

Yes I understand that we were the first to go overdrawn, however you could argue that the bank allowed me to go overdrawn by imposing penalties on me for their own profit.

 

What I would like to do is charge for compound complex interest, the full whack!!! My principle is mutuality. If I take money from them without their authority they charge me an obscene interst, so, by mutuality, if they take money from me without my consent (and bank charges are illegal) then I should also be able to charge the same interest rate that they would charge me. After all the banks are in a priviledges position as they can take the money at their discretion.

 

However, I am struggling in finding any information on mutuality, and any examples that I could use. Does mutuality exist in our agreements with the bank?

 

I guess its the same question many of us have.

 

Thanks again for the advice.

[RedDeath]

A rant and a rave.

 

So far no bank has gone to court to defend their case? Am I correct in assuming this?

 

So what would the chances of them going to court to defend a compound complex interest? They would risk having to divulge their profits from it in public which greater repercussions to my 14k claim.

 

Why am i so nervous about this???

 

On a different note I now have all of their historic interest rates over 20 pages of it. Will tidy it up and post in the near future.

[RedDeath]

Thanks for the pm paula and for the "you are clearly switched on". Gonna print it off as proof as a few people may question that.

[RedDeath]

Guns are loaded and I am ready to go!!!!!

 

I feel I am right in going for the 29.8% from day 1. My unauthorised borrowing is charged at 29.8% so the same should apply to LTSB. The thought of £750 in court fees....ahhhhh.

 

However, I feel I have a valid case. I am doing my research and I have loads of good people firing in with different points of view which i really appreciate.

 

Just a thought, my 5% donation (cause I am going to win), is it a flat fee or compounded, complex???? Don't want any litigation cases arising from this!

[RedDeath]

Wow, how does time fly. I've been taking a bit of time off while my S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) was being processed. So here is the update.

 

SAR

This was received by lloyds on the 27 December so the 40 days were up on Monday 3rd of Feb. By the friday i still had not received anything (Capital One sent at the same time was received much earlier) so I phoned them up. Now i have worked in a call centre and know all the fob off lines and i was met by all of them. Its an easy question, when did you send my statements? but it took around 5 minutes before she took my details to check, the rest were dumb lines. Eventually the lady told me it was not their department and to phone up a different department (Birmingham), and so I did.

The lady on the phone once again tried everything to fob me off. "Thats right that letter was sent before christmas, must have been delayed in the christmas post" Answer: no it hasn't, it was sent signed for. Lady: "Oh thats right, we didn't receive payment". Answer; "I am surprised you didn't tell me earlier, but thankfully I have photocopies of the payments, and i do have proof that you received it". Lady:"Oh that's right, it will take another couple of weeks". Answer: Well I have proof that you received the letter on the 27th, so your 40 days are up on Monday, if i don't receive the documents by Monday I will be raising a complaint with the information commisioner. Lady: "Ok, hold on". By this point i was feeling quite chuffed with myself, and all i could hear was the lady going through some paperwork. She then came back to me to tell me that they would rush it through for me. And so they did, paperwork landed on my doorstep the next morning. RedDeath 1 - 0 LTSB.

 

Charges

 

I was surprised that over 5 years my bank charges amounted to £5500. That works out at £100 a month. (edit) Made me think how life would have been different with that money, but then again its a very welcome amount.

 

One month I was overdrawn by £1.29, yes in words so that is not seen as a typo, one pound and twenty-nine pence because of a £15 mobile phone bill. That meant £25 in charges (twice, because the direct debit was returned again 3 days later, i am sure i never got a letter). So the next month it was £60 plus 2 mobile phone bills (new one and original one) which meant an instant £90, and at the time that was a hard hit. Other dd'd bounced as a result until it totalled £450 a few months later. Jesus, all this for £1. Result, defaulted to brighton office.

 

So with it i decided to charge them compounded complex interest or whatever the technical term is for it. 29.8% annual, calculated daily. It means that the total in interest alone is £6000.

 

First Letter

 

So i sent my letter a couple of days ago, first 14 days are up on the 21st of Feb, here goes.

[RedDeath]

Ok, for completeness, thought i would post the letter. I am claiming for 3 accounts at the same time.

 

Customer Service Centre

Dept. 44-31

6th Floor 2 Atlantic Quay

45 Robertson Street

Glasgow

G2 8AB

 

5th February 2007

 

 

Request for repayment of charges

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

SORT CODE: XX-XX-XX

ACCOUNT NUMBER: XXXXXXXX

SORT CODE: XX-XX-XX

ACCOUNT NUMBER: XXXXXXXX

SORT CODE: XX-XX-XX

ACCOUNT NUMBER: XXXXXXXX

TEMPLATE LETTER REMOVED

 

 

 

Red Death @ 6:14

[RedDeath]

Thanks Guido. I took a quick scan at it at it seems like a promising thread. Would be interesting to see if the thread mentioned anything about mutuality. Lucid's case has been successfull at 29.8% but it wasn't for such a high amount. I am aware that I am charging an awful lot of money, but its just a reflection of the debt I found myself in years ago. Those charges were an absolute killer from which they profited greatly, hence the mutuality. Preaching to the converted!

 

I will give that thread the usual thorough read. I still have around 3 weeks before I can start court proceedings.

 

LTSB have sent me the standard bogoff letter, should i wait for the original 14 days to expire and then start with the letter before action, or reply sooner?

[RedDeath]

1. In giving his preliminary, non-binding views, the judge said that:

(a) if overdraft interest was charged by the bank on the penalty charges, and deducted from the account, the consumer may have a claim.

(b) However, if the consumer tried to recover these or other sums by way of a claim for contractual interest, it is unlikely contractual interest would be awarded at such a high rate (28%+). "More than likely" the judge would award a sum of 8%.

2. The two unsettled cases had paid overdraft interest on their penalties, so should have met the criteria in 1(a) above. BUT because their particulars of claim sought to recover these sums as contractual interest, they would have had less chance of success. So, the judge offered as a suggestion that they could amend their claims to bring them back within 1(a). He was careful not to be prescriptive, but outlined wording for an amended claim:

"The repayment of interest deducted in respect of unauthorised borrowing, and an order that the amount so deducted be calculated by the court on enquiry".

 

Guido, I checked that thread out and came across this quote by matreb.

According to section 1a, as I have been charged the 29.8% charge when i was overdrawn as a result of the charges, then I take it that I could go on to claim this back.

 

According to 2b,

 

To justify a higher amount the judge would need more information on how the account was managed (perhaps the implication was that if the customer has been deprived of money unfairly, possibly with a result that the customer could not pay off other borrowing elsewhere at an equally high rate, there might be a justification??)

 

Well as a result of the 1.29 charges i then ended up paying around £400 in spiralling charges. The extra charges one month were not met and as a result other direct debits bounced. I could get a copy of my experian credit file and try and cross-reference the charges against my credit report. Show that I ended up defaulting on some payments and as a result that would have impacted my credit rating which would have led to a higher cost of borrowing.

 

I take it that at this stage i need to be prepared to go and fight this in a court. It is a huge amount so I take it that I won't be able to do this in a small claims court.

 

Ok, I will wair for the 14 days to expire before proceeding with a letter before action. Time to prepare the rest of my case.

 

 

Finally, a couple of my posts were edited, and while i do not object to them being edited, i do wish to ask a couple of questions on it.

My first comment implied that I felt robbed, and if i was robbed they would have been the *****. Ok, this may seem liable so i accept that, and am thankful, as it was a comment made in the heat of the moment.

 

Now removing my "template" letter on the other hand i don't understand. I would like for other people reading this thread to know what my steps were in claiming 29.8% so that they also can claim this back. Given, the template occupies space and maybe try and cut down on that. However, i did ammend the template, highlighted the sections in red so that people could know that, yet it was deleted. Care to comment?

[RedDeath]

I haven't got time to answer all your points as got to go to work, but with regards to the template letter, if you have cut and pasted it out of the library it will be deleted as far as I can gather, because to view these people need to register to the site or they appear blank.

 

Thanks Tanzarelli, that does make perfect sense to me. Would have appreciated that the "ad-hoc" work might have been kept. I have seen quite a few threads with full templates in them so far, but no harm done.

Yes, I am at work as well. LTSB case warming up nicely, gonna have to find the time to do all of my paperwork. Hell, i will just charge them for that as well. Think its about £9 an hour, might skank 10 hours work

[RedDeath]

I have been mulling things over in my head over the past couple of days. I am going for the 29.8% interest. So couple of thoughts...

 

I take it that if i can prove that the bank took 29.8% interest from me then I can charge them the same? Bit of a dumb arguement though cause it says so in their bank charges. Unauthorised rates are 29.8%, and how else can you go into a repeating unauthorised situation? By the bank charges.

 

Also, I would like to point out how £1.29 od eventually spiralled into over £400 in charges, and the way this affected my credit rating. I would like to use this arguement as an example as to why it is fair for me to charge the bank back at the 29.8% interest.

 

Now at what stage do I do this? Currently I am about to send LBA out but i am not expecting anything back from them, so court is the next step. At what stage would i put my example in. Also, i can crossreference to equifax reports.

 

Big amount so what court will this be at? I take it i am out of the small claims court?

 

Another thought. Would I need a copy of my original contract (terms and conditions) or not? This so I can prove that a contract was in place. Yes, it is defined as terms and conditions but it still needs a signature. This so I can argue mutuality.

 

Also, would i need a copy of any time that i was refused an overdraft or a loan, this so i can prove that LTSB were benefiting from the charges, as extensions to o/d were always refused.

 

I feel it may be time for another SAR to get that information. 40 day deadline should still be able to carry on as planned and that should reach me before I need to raise court details. Unless they obviously play funny buggers again!

 

Any thoughts greatly appreciated.

[RedDeath]

Still have not heard from LTSB and their 14 days for the LBA are about to be up. What should I do at this point? I was thinking about sending a letter saying that I am disappointed that they have not entered into any communication with me and that I would like to give them an additional 14 days to settle in full or I will be commencing court proceedings.

 

This would buy me some time for the following reasons.

1. Skint..so as Cr@p One are about to settle (court 20 April) that money would fund this claim.

2. Still need to fill out poc an I will post here once completed if anyone could give it the twice over.

3. Lastly, I live in Scotland and my claim is 12k so i think I am heading towards a merchantile court. What should I do??? Claim in England and incur costs for travelling to court, or can I do this in a Scottish court.

 

HELP!!

[RedDeath]

I have decided to give LTSB a further 14 days to settle. This is a copy of the letter that is going out Monday morning. Any comments?

 

LETTER BEFORE ACTION - FINAL NOTICE –

 

Dear Debbie Gilbert,

 

SORT CODE: xx-xx-xx

ACCOUNT NUMBER: xxxxxxxx

SORT CODE: xx-xx-xx

ACCOUNT NUMBER: xxxxxxxx

SORT CODE: xx-xx-xx

ACCOUNT NUMBER: xxxxxxxx

 

I am very disappointed that you have failed to respond to my letter before action dated 24th February which you received on the 27th of February as has been confirmed by the royal mail (Reference: xxxxxxxxxxxx). As a long standing customer of your bank (approx 10 years) I would have at least expected an acknowledgement of my complaint.

 

I am concerned that you may be underestimating the seriousness of my complaint. In view of this I am willing to give you a further 14 days to enter into sincere dialogue with myself regarding the unlawful appropriation of money from my bank account through penalty charges disguised as bank charges.

 

I now understand that the regime of 'fees' which you have been applying to my account in relation to direct debit refusals, exceeding overdraft limits and so forth are unlawful at Common Law, Statute and recent Consumer regulations.

 

I would draw your attention to the terms of the contract which you agreed to at the time that I opened my account. It is an implied term of that contract that you would conduct yourselves lawfully and in a manner which complies with UK law.

 

I am frankly shocked that you have operated my account in this way as I had always reposed confidence in your integrity and expertise as my fiduciary.

 

I calculate that you have taken £6216 plus £5222 which you have charged me in overdraft interest for the sum which you have taken. The interest rate that I have used in these calculations is 29.8%. You will note this is the equivalent interest rate that you apply to my account in the event of an unauthorised overdraft.

 

While I appreciated that as a business you have a right to recoup losses, you should only be able to recoup genuine losses and not profit from this process as in that case you would be introducing penalty charges which are unlawful at Common Law, Statute and recent Consumer regulations.

 

 

To satisfy my complaint, please provide me with a full breakdown of your costs involved in recouping losses in relation to direct debit refusals, exceeding overdraft limits and so forth to justify that the regime of bank charges that you have been levying to my account are a true reflection of the costs you have incurred.

 

If this is not possible then I can only but confirm what the media and OFT have been reporting that you are indeed profiteering from such charges.

 

As such I ask that if you are not able to fully justify your costs to me that not only are my bank charges fully refunded but that you refund me interest at the above rate based on the mutuality of our agreement, as you would have been abusing your position as my fiduciary and unlawfully appropriating yourself of my money regardless of the trust that I had that you would be operating my account fairly, lawfully and if full compliance of UK law. The total of which amounts £11438.

 

Additionally throughout the running of my account you have entered default notices against my credit record. These defaults occurred merely in respect of unlawful charges levied by you, or were the result of impecuniosities caused directly by the taking by you of penalty charges which you had applied unlawfully to my account.

 

Should I not hear back from you within 14 days of receiving this letter (once again this will be referenced via the royal mail’s signed for services) then I shall have to assume that you are not taking my request seriously and I will deem your refusal to enter into sincere dialogue as your final offer with regards to this matter and will seek closure through the judiciary system to reclaim my charges and interest.

 

For your records, I am enclosing a copy of my Letter Before Action dated 24th February 2007 together with a further schedule of the charges which I am claiming. I have already sent you a copy of these charges in my original letter of the 5th of February 2007.

 

I require repayment in full of this money and removal of the default notices. If you do not comply fully within 14 days then I shall begin a claim against you for the full amount plus interest plus a claim under ss.7 and 13 of the Data Protection Act 1998 plus my costs and without further notice.

 

PLEASE DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE THE SERIOUSNESS OF THIS LETTER – IF YOU ARE UNSURE I SUGGEST YOU SEEK THE IMMEDIATE HELP FROM YOUR LEGAL DEPARTMENT.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

RedDeath@6:14

[RedDeath]

Thanks guys,

Yes the only benefit from this will be scoring brownie points in front of a judge and at least seem like i would rather exhaust all possible paths before litigation.

 

Also, I would not personally advise that you take a contractual interest claim into the fast track with costs exposure. Its undeniably risky. However, I trust you are fully aware of the risks and have already carefully considered them.

 

Gary/Tanz, could you please highlight the main issues or point me in the direction of a couple of threads? And what are the options, if any?

Yes I could avoid contractual but they have applied that rate to the running of my account, to me it is only fair that i charge the same back.

 

Also what are the differences between a fast track court as opposed to a small claims court? I take it that I would be liable for costs if I were to lose. Suppose my particulars of claim will lay out the basis of this claim, so loads more work to do.

 

I take it a simple template won't cut it and it will come down to the thoroughness of my particulars of claim and ask for authorised rate or failing that statuatory 8% as a fail safe.

 

As usual, thanks again! Really appreciated.

[RedDeath]

Thanks Guido, that I will look into that thread in detail. Have to admit that I had scanned that one before, maybe its time for some revision.

 

Forgive me if this sounds repetititve as i need to get it right in my head before proceeding.

 

Main difference between small and fast track. In the fast track you have exposure to the other sides legal costs if you loose, in small claims little or no costs exposure.

 

So if I were to lose I would have to pay their legal costs.

 

In fast track you have disclosure, but not in small claims.

 

Not sure what you mean by disclosure.

 

The template on this site is fine with a few extra paragraphs relating to contratual interest. Incidentally, you should include CI in your prelim and LBA if you are claiming it (but not SI).

 

I read that wrong and for 5 minutes I did panic. Yes I have included CI in both prelim and LBA. Woah, scary 5 minutes!

[RedDeath]

Disclosure is where both parties are required to reveal copies of the relevant documentation, including that which is detrimental to their case, it is a good thing as the banks are required to produce their charge structure.

 

I thought that was what you meant, really need to get things 100% in my head at this stage.

 

This seems incredibly positive to me. I want them to disclose their charge structure. Who deals with it, do they deal exclusively with it, do they use certain computers, are these computers only used for charges, is it automeated, how many charges a month/year and so on...

 

I very much doubt that even at this stage they would be willing to disclose their true costs, all they will be able to do is argue on the interest rate that I am applying to my case.

 

Saying that I can prove instances during the running of my account to highlight when they charged me 29.8% interest for unauthorised borrowing. I am still of the school of thought that the charges were unlawful and as such the bank abused their position of trust. Just like i have abused my position of trust with a cheque guarantee card and have signed cheques that I knew would not be covered, they charged me 29.8% interest for the pleasure. Hence, they abused the same trust, had the same methods to take money from my account and it is only fair that they also pay back interest at the same rate.

 

I am going to base my arguement, as many, on a simple fact. Justify the true costs of the charges and if that is not possible they must be deemed as unlawful and the action of removing money from my account represents unauthorised borrowing from their part and as such should refund me the same amount back.

 

I think ultimately though that the better i lay out my particulars of claim the better chance I will have to argue my case. Some have advised not to go for this rate of interest but I have decided to go for it anyway. Am I confident about it? Not 100% but still feel that i need to stand up to them and argue my case. If it all goes pete tong then fair enough i tried.

 

In the meantime this means a lot of time typing up my poc. I am at work at the moment so can not post the main threads that have inspired me so far but I will post these soon. In the meantime i think I have scored extra brownie points by giving them a further 14 days to respond.

 

Guido, thanks again for the responses. I have food for thought now. Cheers!