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How do I stand now with NatWest?


Outacash
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Well guys, how long DO NatWest keep their statements and other client information then?

 

I have a long-standing debt to NatWest which I have recently decided to challenge on feeling more empowered ... through using and reading through these forums.

 

I have just received a letter from NatWest (in LATE response to my S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) request, following a reminder letter for non-provision) ... stating that they cannot provide all of the data I have requested in my S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) for the whole length of my account with them (some eighteen years).

 

They are only able to produce balance printouts back to 2002 (with the words "please destroy, do not despatch" printed on them ??) and a printed list of credited payments to my account from 2002 back to 1999.

 

They state that they "have not been able to locate any contracts/agreements relating to this account" and that they have provided "all the data that we (they) currently hold on file for you (me) at this office" (NatWest credit management services, Telford).

 

Anyone care to expand on whether I will actually be able to get true copies of my information as per SAR for the length of my account? ... or even for the seven years since my account was transferred to the Telford branch (1999)? They say they are unable to trace ANY other records for my account ???

 

It seems that they are either playing games with me about the information they have, or it is perhaps located elsewhere and they cannot or don't want to provide it, or it has genuinely been "lost" ... which opens up a whole new ball game ...

 

Anyone care to venture where I might stand legally on the strength of this response from NatWest? ...

 

Boy oh boy isn't this whole banking lark a bit of a minefield!

 

Thanks in anticipation of your knowledgeable responses!!

 

Cheers! :confused:

  • Haha 1

Outacash ...

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Thanks for the comments guys … interestingly, the latest NatWest reply came in response to the LBA letter already sent (below) … beyond the seven days given, but dated within the seven days … and took five days to be delivered to me (?) ….. I notice that I sent it to the address I had been corresponding with earlier rather than a specific Data Controller address. However, this was following an EARLIER SAR request through the Data Controller for Unidebt Collections as the previous controllers of communications for this account, yet the following communications came from NatWest at Telford and so I have continued to use this address. They are perfectly aware what a SAR is, as this early reply clearly refers to their obligation to provide data within 40 days of receiving the statutory fee! Have they used a loophole where they can say that the Data Controller has not bee informed by me directly about the SAR … even though they have received and acknowledged payment of the statutory fee for the proper purpose?? Anyway … the letter …

NatWest, Customer Services Manager,

Credit Management Services,

1st Floor, Kendal Court, Ironmasters Way,

Telford, TF3 4DT.

Your ref: XXXX/XXXXX

Dear Sir,

Branch Code: XXXXXX

Account No: XXXXXX

LETTER BEFORE ACTION

Section 7 – Data Protection Act 1998

I am in receipt of the documents you have supplied in your letter of (xx November), in response to my Data Protection Act information request dated xx October 2006.

The disclosure of personal data is incomplete in that at least the following documentation is missing ...

1. You have failed to provide a complete list of transactions and charges for the duration of the above account.

2. You have not provided notes or documents relating to any legal action between you and myself.

3. You have not provided notes or documents relating to instances of manual intervention.

4. You have not provided contracts/agreements relating to the account between you and myself. Also …

5. You have not responded appropriately to my further letter of xx October, and not replied at all to my letter of xx November regarding this Subject Access Request.

These points are not intended to be an exhaustive list, they are just an indication of relevant points and a reminder of some of the information that you have not yet supplied.

 

Accordingly, I have to tell you that you have not yet complied with your obligations under the Data Protection Act 1998.

 

The time for your compliance with my request (has) expired (xx November 2006 - 40 days after your confirmed receipt of my request and the relevant fee).

If you do not comply fully with my Subject Access Request within 7 days of your receipt of this letter, I shall have no alternative but to apply to the County Court for an order to enforce compliance, together with damages at the discretion of the court.

Further … I also received a letter from Buchanan Clark and Wells giving me a FORMAL NOTICE OF DEFAULTING ACCOUNT, and threatening issue of a county court claim against me. They have been intolerable too. I replied with the following letter ten days ago …. But haven’t yet had a reply …

Buchanan Clark & Wells

11 Elm Court

Stratford-Upon-Avon

Warwickshire CU37 6PA

Dear sirs,

I am in receipt of your letter dated xx November.

I do not acknowledge ANY debt to your company.

 

The matter of any outstanding debt I have with your clients National Westminster Bank (NatWest) is currently in dispute.

I have no information that advises me that you have taken over any outstanding debt I have with NatWest.

If you have indeed taken over any outstanding debt I have with NatWest, then I understand you are obliged, on this formal request, to supply me with a true copy of the agreement which demonstrates this arrangement (under legislation within s.78(1) Consumer Credit Act 1974 [s.77(1) for fixed sum credit]), and your obligation also extends to providing a statement of account. I enclose a postal order for £1.00 in payment of the statutory fee in respect of this request.

[serial number………………………….……].

I am also entitled to a signed true copy of the deed of assignment of the above agreement.

 

You are notified that you are obliged to supply these documents, whether you are the original creditor or not, under s.189 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

Non-compliance with my request is an offence under the above Act, and will result in a report being submitted to the relevant statutory authorities.

 

As you are aware, a credit agreement that is not properly documented and signed by the customer is totally unenforceable under the Consumer Credit Act and therefore is a complete defence to any court claim that is issued.

 

Take note at this stage, that any legal action you may contemplate will be both vigorously defended and contested.

 

Interesting huh????

So what is the next stage now? … issue proceedings to force them both to disclose the information they DO hold … I’m really curious as to how they can possibly enforce the debt based on their responses so far …

Looking forward to your own further responses … (sorry this was a long one!).

Cheers guys … you really make this site worth its weight in gold!

Outa J

Outacash ...

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This is interesting, to say the least, I am intrigued by your second letter above. Would I be right in thinking there is a legal brain at the source of this.

 

Interesting ... YES

 

Pain in the *** ... YES

 

Fight fire with fire ? ... DEFINITELY!

 

Found in another useful posting on this site, for dealing with Debt Collection Agencies ... see debt and bailiffs advice forum ... I think this is the thread I took it from ...

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-bailiffs-advice/42988-debt-too-old.html

Legal brain behind it? ... quite possibly, although I don't know the source.

Cheers :)

Outacash ...

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I am pretty sure that any account that is in dispute can not be defaulted.

 

Maybe someone could clarify this.

 

Sally x

 

If this helps ...

 

I had deliberately defaulted on payments on the basis that I wanted clarification about my debt to the bank ... so I could review my whole financial position ... and I would then be able to give a revised payment proposal. NatWest have been fully notified of financial challenges I have had throughout this period, and have allowed me occasions of non-payment before while proposals could be sorted out.

 

(This was before I had become more familiar with this Action Group and the wonderful help in the forums ...)

 

I wrote to the bank (before being aware of CAG forums and advice) and asked for my account information in order that I could consider my position, and said I would not be making any further payments until this had been properly clarified ... I guess this is the default that the DCA have written to me about, but the DCA letter was some time long after NatWest were aware of my reason for non-payment!

 

I don't think I had acted unreasonably in asking for this clarification before I commit to ,aking further payment ... especially when I doubted the overall amount I wal allegedly liable for!!

 

I still haven't made a repayment on the basis that I now cannot be certain what amount I actually owe, what charges have been applied to my account and why, and NatWest cannot or will not provide the information I ask for to clarify these matters.

 

I don't think I'm wrong here?

 

Am I??

Outacash ...

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Latest update ...

 

I have just received a letter from the DCA following my two letters above ...

 

They tell me I can have the debt fully settled if I pay them HALF of the alleged amount owed (still a few thou), in full, within the next four days (yeah, like I have that sort of cash readily available!).

 

If I miss this deadline, the full amount will be due and this early settlement arrangement will be void.

 

????

 

My thoughts are to send them a further copy of my last CCA request letter and remind them that as far as I'm concerned I owe them (DCA) nothing.

 

As for NatWest ... it would seem that they are simply refusing to comply with the requirements of the Data Proyection Act and should be reported accordingly ... for which I will be scouring the templates library and firing off an appropriate letter.

 

Anyone care to comment further? .... your responses are always more than welcome.

 

Cheers! :)

Outacash ...

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Thanks ataction ...

 

I have a long history of negotiation with NatWest, which has usually been reasonable on both sides, and with some strong wording used at times ... but they have always had the upper hand as I had assumed that they were honest, truthful, and operated my financial affairs fairly and honestly ... until the issues raised within this site have become more common knowledge.

 

I'm quite happy to negotiate again ... but this now has to be with fuller knowledge of the handling of my account by NatWest, through disclosure of my full account details (hence SAR etc).

 

My concern about the latest offer is that a) the DCA are happy to write off half of the debt that the bank were insistant on collecting?(a bit of a steep drop on the alleged overall amount owed ... too good to be true?), and b) that I'm not convinced that the debt has been accurately or fairly administered and accrued in the first place.

 

However ... negotiation is the name of the game ... but on my terms now, and with the strength of knowledge and experience of all of the good people visiting and posting on this site!

 

Cheers!

Outacash ...

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Thanks Lively and NWSM, you guys are just great!!

 

Letters as above will be off in the post next day or so (workload and health permitting. Anyone else got this vile cold bug going around?).

 

I'll update again when the responses come back.

 

CHEERS :)

Outacash ...

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Can someone tell Vampiress about the info as well as I am sure it will be useful for her

 

NWSM ... would a pm indicating my thread be ok ... or are you referring to more information based on knowledge I am unaware of at the moment?

Outacash ...

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi BB ... thanks for your support.

 

Slight delay in my progress since my last posting, just about to fire off another letter to the DCA (thsy have written to me in the meantime telling me a) that all action is on hold on my account until their investigations following my enquiry are complete - within the next 28 working days - and b) then written to warn me (13 days later) that this is my final opportunity to make payment in order to avoid possible legal action ????) I'll also be writing to FSA and Trading Standards as they have still not complied with my CCA request.

 

Will update again soon.

 

Would anyone also recommend I start my follow up on my "letter before action" (LBA) to NatWest (same account as above) ... as they still have not responded fully to my S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) nor to my LBA? (Yes, this is a double-pronged attack!)

 

Cheers all! :)

 

Oops ... just re-read earlier posting by Livelilad ... DPA non-compliance letter going out too!

Outacash ...

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hi again guys …

Just before I send off my request to MCOL that NatWest be forced to disclose my account information (they have failed to fully disclose following SAR) … I have re-read the following from a recent NatWest letter to me ….

“due to the historic nature of (this) account we have not been able to locate any contracts/agreements relating to (this account)”.

If I send off to MCOL to force disclosure … and they genuinely do not have this information … what would be the next step?

Where does this revelation by the bank put me in terms of our “obligation” to each other? I had always assumed that the bank had the upper hand because they had the information (signed agreements) that allowed them to run my account appropriately and legally and could prove they were doing so … until becoming aware we could all “claim the right”.

The account is long-standing … since approximately 1988 … originating from a small overdraft and a much larger consolidation loan … which NatWest mysteriously have merged into one account, and can only provide me with balance/payment/interest charges information [NOT COPY STATEMENTS] from Sept 1999.

Looking forward to your replies again … and many thanks in advance!

Cheers! :)

Outacash ...

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OK Nattie ... here goes ...

 

The earlier postings I have made relating to this "problem" were in this thread if you care to view … http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/natwest-bank/24577-much-longer-than-6yrs.html … and which shows my early naivety about dealing with my bank/account.

 

At a time of financial difficulties, NatWest provided a consolidation loan and overdraft to help resolve the current position (around 1988). Further difficulties caused the account to be passed through various departments at NatWest, eventually ending up with Credit Management Services, and a letter to say that I had been given a new account number which would be used in all communications in the future (around 1991 – no formal notice or agreement that I can recall which stated how this "consolidation" had come about).

 

Since then I have had numerous occasions / communications / negotiations regarding payments on the account … always stating an amount owed, but no account statements issued … agreed payments were based on what I could afford, on schedules prepared through the Citizens Advice Bureau who had supported me at those times.

 

My recent default on the last of these "agreed payment schedules" was deliberate on the basis that I wished to ensure that I was paying off an accurate amount owed (as it seems to have escalated alarmingly over the duration of the account). I also wished to clarify my account had in fact been handled appropriately by the bank - and that amounts owed, interest charged, any other charges etc were in order and in accordance with proper agreements between us.

 

As the bank did not wish to "play ball" with my original informal request for account information … when I became aware of these forums I made a more formal approach and sent my subject access request. Since then a DCA has also become involved … as you will see from the postings above.

 

Latest is as posted above in this thread, except that the DCA now say that since NatWest have provided all of the information they hold regarding my account, I am now still liable for the whole amount they claim is accurate, and have asked for my repayment proposals.

 

I have forwarded details and complaint to the Trading Standards office nearest to the DCA two weeks ago, and sent a reminder, regarding non-compliance with my request for production of information under the Consumer Credit Act … but still await their reply.

 

NatWest and the DCA have both been notified that …

  1. I do not acknowledge ANY debt to the DCA
  2. I am awaiting advice following NatWest’s failure to provide full account information covering the duration of my banking with them.

And that brings us up to date!

 

Does this clarify sufficiently, or do you need something more specific? You could pm me if need be for confidentiality of more in depth info?

Hope you can make sense of this and suggest the next step?

 

Many thanks again

 

Outa

Outacash ...

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Yes ... copy records they have forwarded have the phrase "please destroy, do not despatch" typed along the bottom.

 

At the risk of re-iterating ... "how do I stand now?" ... without production of evidence of contractual agreement, and if the bank cannot produce statements or other documentation/records showing my full account history (or don't want to at the moment) ... where does that place me in terms of any obligation to the bank??

 

I still have not had a reply from NatWest/DCA nor the Trading Standards (regarding reporting that DCA and bank have not provided full information despite formal requests)

 

Feeling like this is getting a little serious now.

 

Comments please ???? or does this need to go up to a mod/helper ???

 

Cheers

Outacash ...

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