taking car trader to small claims court

[pringles1981]

Hi, 

I was wondering if someone could help me please. I am taking a trader to court for my late father's car, as it was sold with undisclosed, pre-existing issues.

 

The car was paid by cash (£500 deposit by debit card, £5000 paid by bank transfer) and part exchange of my father’s previous car in Sept 2019, and the car was collected mid Oct 2019. There was a 12 month warranty given with the car, although this was not in writing however  my brother in law was present at the time of sale when this was mentioned.

 

I only have the deposit receipt but have managed to contact my father’s bank which shows the bank transfer transaction. Two weeks after my father had the car, he reported some electrical issues with the car (around late October 2019) so it was returned to the trader to rectify. These issues included the rear view camera, TV screen and blind spot assist on side mirrors not working.

 

I'm not sure exactly when the car was returned but I know it was with the trader for a very long time. I have text messages and call logs from my father’s phone which shows the contact attempts and conversations from my father chasing the time it was taking to repair the car. I believe the trader had the car "for repairs" from Oct 2019 - Feb 2020, and then again from March 2020 - Aug 2020, apart from a weekend in late Nov when my dad required use of the car over the weekend, and a few weeks in Feb whereby my father was again arranging for the car to be taken in for repairs due to the fault not being rectified.

 

Once the electrical issues were finally resolved and the car was returned (in Aug 2020), my father immediately noticed a new fault which had appeared while the car had been in the trader's possession (a loud ticking noise from the engine). He once again contacted the trader and was advised to take the car for a long drive. This did not rectify the issue, and my father reported this to the trader and the car was taken for repair (in August 2020) after a week of the car being returned. The trader has had the car ever since.

 

My father passed in January of this year, and the car has been in the trader's possession since about Aug 2020, in addition to the trader having the car for the majority of time prior to this.

 

I am named as the Executor of the Will and have been trying to sort this out to no success. We (the family) initially wanted the car back for the funeral day in Feb, but the trader was unable to return the car as was “still awaiting parts to be fitted”.  I have been in contact with the trader from Feb – April 2020, contacting him by phone / texts most days for updates, and looking back now, I believe I have been fobbed off, as had my father. I have made notes in my phone summarising the conversations we had for my own records.

 

I have had no evidence whatsoever as to what attempts at repairs (if any) have been done, I don't know where the car is located, as apparently it had to go to another specialist garage, nor has the trader sent me photos of the condition of the car, despite numerous requests. The car is now apparently in an undriveable state, and I have no knowledge what the trader has done with the car. I have visions of the engine all dismantled, and in bits… its really upsetting to be honest. It’s not as if I can even take it to another garage for a second opinion now. Its in a worse condition now, than when he took it from us.

 

So, to date, I have followed the Citizen’s advice process, writing letters to the trader, requesting a refund of the car under the Consumer Good Act 2015 for the supply of faulty goods. In addition, the time it has taken to repair the faults has been unreasonable which also falls under the Act, so I have included this in the letters too, although we have been more than understanding with the Pandemic situation. I have also mentioned ADR to the trader and have not had any responses back from the trader. I believe he took advantage of my father’s good nature and abused his trust.

 

Now that my father is no longer here, the trader is in effect holding us to ransom, and using this to his advantage and making untrue statements, such as my father agreed to pay for the repairs, which was definitely not the case, as my sisters and I had various conversations with him about the car, and not once did he mention that he had to pay / contribute towards the repairs. Nor is there any written confirmation (email / texts) that this was the case. My father only had the car for a total of about 4/5 weeks since he purchased it due to the ongoing issues and the length of time it has taken for the trader to repair the issues, and which is still ongoing and outstanding.

 

I have never filed a claim before, and just wanted some advice on this situation really. What is the likelihood that this will go in our favour if we did file a court claim? All we want is the money back now, or as closest to what my father paid for it. I guess the way I see it is that I have nothing to lose, apart from about £500 for the online fee.

 

Also, I wanted some advice on the “Particulars of claim” section of the online form. I’m not sure how much detail is required, i.e. do I need to include all the evidence / dates with when my father and I have contacted him, and detailed chronological sequence of events? Or can I put this together later? I know there was a previous thread (in 2017) with a similar issue and just wondered if I could view the document to help with me writing my statement.

 

Any help would be appreciated.

[pringles1981]

I've managed to open the link now, thank you

 

But any other help / advice would be appreciated 

 

[pringles1981]

Noted about the structure of post - thank you. I will ensure this is followed for future posts

 

No, it is not the same company, just a similar kind of story when I had skim read it, and also just wanted to see the PDF attachment for the claim form. 

 

@dx100uksorry I don't understand - am new to this site, so just trying to figure out how it works etc. 

[pringles1981]

I would rather not mention the name of the garage at the moment as wouldn’t want it to affect my case in future. It is an independent garage and not a franchise. 
 

And the advice given by my employee assistance service through my employers have advised that I can persue this as I am the executor of the will and the car forms part of the estate. 
 

 

 

[pringles1981]

like I’ve explained, I do not wish to name the trader at this time. 
I will add bullet point chronology of events shortly 

make & model - Jaguar XF

mileage when bought in Oct 2019 approx 80,646

my dad was on furlough for most of 2020 and due to the car being in the garage he barely drove the car so couldn’t have done more than a couple of hundred miles if that 

04.09.2019 – car paid for £10,500 (debit card transaction £500, bank transfer £5000, part-ex of previous vehicle value of £5000)

12.10.2019 – Car is picked up. Vehicle under 12 month warranty

24.10.2019 – father contacts trader to report (electrical) fault, and books car in to be looked at

04.11.2019 – 28.11.2019 -  car is returned to trader to be repaired. 

29.11.2019 – 01.12.2019 – car returned back to my dad for use for the weekend, repair is still outstanding

w/c 02.12.2019 – dad returns car back to trader to complete repair

w/c 27.01.2020 – dad collects car from trader for use, fault still outstanding and car still unrepaired

10.02.2020 – 12.03.2020 – dad tries to contact defendant via phone / texts to repair ongoing / outstanding issue with car. Car is collected by trader sometime in March 2020

LOCKDOWN 1.0 starts  23.03.2020 - May/June 2020????.   Car garages closed. 

March 2020 – August 2020 – car in trader's possession, dad not fully aware of what repairs were being carried out, no adequate updates provided

August 2020 – car returned, however upon return of the car, new fault identified which appeared whilst in trader's possession and reported to trader (loud ticking noise from engine). Trader advises that had to top engine up with oil and to take the car for a long drive to resolve, which does not rectify the problem. Dad takes car back to defendant for the fault to be looked at.

August 2020 – present day – trader in possession of the car, repairs are still outstanding, car left in an undriveable state. Numerous requests have been made to the trader to advise of location and photos of car, but not sent to date

October 2020 – MOT / Car tax ran out. Trader aware as dad spoke to him about this to carry out MOT

Mid Jan 2021 - April 2021 - myself and other family members in contact with trader to return the vehicle. Told the car requires a new engine after various attempts at repairing / refurbishing engine parts (although no evidence of this from trader). 

06.04.2021 – 1^st letter requesting refund (as faulty goods under Consumer Rights Act 2015) sent to trader, no response

22.04.2021 – 2^nd letter sent to trader (ADR), no response

01.05.2021 – 3^rd letter sent to trader (ADR and warning of court action), no response

[pringles1981]

letters .pdf

 

The trader is about 6 miles from where I am, so not far. And yes he is still trading. 

 

And regarding the value, if I put in the value of the claim as £10,000, it adds on the fee of £455, so value of claim is £10,445. Therefore does this still qualify for small claims (i.e. does it include the fee in the total), or would I need to reduce the claim amount so that it is under £10,000 including the fee.  Ultimately, I would be happy with the market value of the car if it was in full working order which is about £9-10k. 

 

Looking at my dad's phone history, there is a long list of phone records (missed calls, where my dad has tried to call him and got through / not got through, the trader calling my dad) from Oct 2019 - Dec 2020. 

There is also a text conversation where I have pieced together the gaps as such

 

When I started speaking to him, I made notes of our conversations with what was discussed, and I also have text message conversations with him. 

 

 

 

[pringles1981]

how can I check this information please, re the Phoenixed, and outstanding judgments? 

 

And how can it add to complications if they are an independent business?

 

[pringles1981]

thank you @honeybee13

 

It is registered as a limited company and the "company director" is the person that my dad / I have been dealing with

[pringles1981]

The company is still active - was incorporated in June 2012. 

 

The company was previously trading under a different but similar name from Sept 2009 - Aug 2013, but the company was dissolved. The dissolved company had 3 directors, one of which is the director of the current company, that I have been dealing with. 

[pringles1981]

I don't mind privately messaging you the name of the company but I don't want to include it on an open forum whereby anyone (including the trader) can search and view the conversation 

[pringles1981]

I think your comments are quit harsh to be honest. What was I supposed to do after every deadline? Ring the trader?  The letters were sent recorded delivery and I have proof of delivery from Royal Mail so if he didn't want to respond then that's down to him. It will show the court that he was not willing to resolve this amicably, and has had ample opportunity to. 

 

And like I have mentioned before, both my father and I have been communicating with him via phone calls, and texts. I didn't just send the letters out the blue. I was calling him every day / every other day from about mid Feb - beginning of April, and was getting nowhere hence why I followed the Citizens Advice. My father's nature was probably a bit too trusting and believed that he was doing what he said he was. 

 

I came on here initially asking for your help with how I go about completing the particulars of claim on the online form. I have every intention of taking this further,  as I want this trader to understand that I mean what I say and will follow through. 

The trader is a car salesman mainly, and has previously advised me that the car is at another garage to be repaired. Despite numerous requests over phone calls and texts, he would not disclose the location of this other garage, or provide me with the details to speak to the mechanic that was apparently repairing the issue. I requested photos of the car a number of times for my peace of mind and he hasn't sent these either. 

 

The trader is not a member of the RMIF or any other trade association as far as I am aware as I have previously checked this.

 

And not registered with the ICO

[pringles1981]

Under the Consumer Rights Act 2015, goods supplied must be of satisfactory quality. In this case, the car was not of satisfactory quality as had problems 2 weeks after my dad had the car. 

 

Also, the Consumer Rights Act 2015 states "“service to be performed with reasonable care and skill” and “service to be performed within a reasonable amount of time”. In this case, the length of time it has taken to carry out repairs has not been acceptable and the "skill" is questionable too, as the car is no longer in a driveable state which it was prior to it being sent back to the garage in August 2020. 

 

And communication has been over text AND phone calls from 2019, firstly by my dad, then my brother in law, and lastly myself.

 

And yes, I have copies / back ups of the texts that can be printed off. 

[pringles1981]

He says it needs a new engine which is what he said back in October 2020 to my dad but was going to sort it for him. 

Since I’ve been dealing with him, it’s be a vague description of “waiting for parts to be fitted” and when questioning him further he couldn’t tell me specifically which parts were needed. Then the story was the the turbo charger needed reconditioning, and the crank shift needed replacing which was the reconditioned too apparently. But this apparently hasn’t solved the issue and says it needs a new engine. 

 

Now all of a sudden as my dad is now longer here, he is claiming my dad was going to pay for a new engine which costs in the region of about £4K due to the spec of the car 

[pringles1981]

No I haven’t contacted the ICO. I haven’t been advised to by either the Citizens Advice service or my employee assistance service. 
 

What would the SAR be for exactly? 

[pringles1981]

The understanding was that he was supposed to repair the car , but has either been unable to do so or simply not done so. 
 

The car is in an undriveable condition and to be honest It wouldn’t surprise me if parts were now missing from the car due to the length of time he has had it for. 
 

He wants us to pay for the engine which was not agreed by myself or my dad however it’s not as if I can take the car off him to get a second opinion. 
 

But it is obvious that the goods (car) was faulty and not in a satisfactory condition and more so, the length of time it has taken for him to repair the faults is not acceptable. If he was unable to repair then he should advised us of this and given us the option  to return the car in the condition it was given. 
 

I am not prepared to pay him for repairs for a car that was sold to my dad with undisclosed , pre-existing faults that we were unaware and especially wondering my father has hardy driven it due to it being in the possession of the trader for the majority of time since October 2019 

 

And he knows exactly what the position is as I have made it clear to him that I want the car back in working order as was initially agreed with my dad and with myself. 
 

[pringles1981]

Has he actually given you a clear list of the work that he thinks needs doing and of the money involved? The answer to this question is no. Because he is not the mechanic, its always been very vague answers such as "the engine was driven without any oil, therefore there are engine issues", or "the turbocharger has been sent for repair / reconditioning", "the crankshift needs replacing" "the crank is being re-conditioned", "the engine has been put back together but no joy". But i have not seen any evidence / paper trails that parts were purchased, reconditioned etc as he said. 

 

Have you any idea of what he reckons is the value of the work that he has carried out so far? The answer to this is no. His responses towards the last time i spoke to him over the phone (which was beginning of April) was "I was doing this as a favour to your dad", or "your dad agreed to contribute towards/pay the cost"

 

In our last conversation, I did stress that he has had the car and it is in a worse state that when we gave it to him, i.e. undriveable, and his response was "well you can come and take it", and when I asked how I would do that when the engine is in bits, his answer was "you can always get it towed".  When I sought some advice through my employee assistance service, they recommended to leave the vehicle with the trader as if I took it off him, or to another garage, he could argue that we had tampered with it, so while it was in his possession, it is his responsibility. 

 

So i'm not sure whether writing a letter to him to take the vehicle away is the right thing to do in this instance. Alternatively, I could request that he gives me access to the vehicle , and take an expert with to me assess the condition of the vehicle where it is being held? And mention that if he does not grant access to the vehicle to carry out your own inspections, I will sue him for conversion under the Torts (Interference with Goods) Act 1999 and without any further notice. And then go down the moneyclaim route.  But does this mean, I would not include the Consumer Rights Act 2015 then? 

 

[pringles1981]

Furthermore, it would be most unlikely that the repairs needed would be as much as the small claims limit - what do you mean by this? Do you think it will be more? 

At the moment you have no idea what's going on, the value of anything, and you are proposing suing him for the entire value of the vehicle. - yes because I am not interested in keeping the vehicle, I'd rather get a refund and he ca do what he likes with the car

 

And what would happen if I take the car away from him, get the quote for reparations, and he refuses to pay, which I'm sure he will, otherwise he would have paid to get the work done by now? I would be in a worse off position and left with a huge bill for repairs from the new garage when quite frankly I don't really have the money for it. Hence why I think I was advised down the faulty goods route. 

 

 

[pringles1981]

I'd rather take the chance with suing him for the refund and losing, and then potentially having to pay for moving the car and repairs, than to do that now and spending money on a car that quite simply we do not want to keep any longer, and potentially risk losing more money, if that makes sense. 

 

I am not protecting him at all - quite the contrary actually - I am trying to protect myself so that he cannot use the fact that I have used his company name in an open forum and affected his company's reputation 

 

You are entitled to your opinion and I respect that, but given the grief and loss that we have encountered as a family, I (along with my brother in law) have tried our best to resolve this issue with him since January. I (along with my mother and sisters) want this matter concluded as quickly as possible now.

 

And thank you for the draft of the particulars of claim. I think it is a great summary. But do I have to compile a more detailed version of the particulars of claim at a later stage, i.e. a numbered paragraph sequence and in chorological date order from the start of this saga right up until now? I've seen some examples online so wasn't sure if this is what I needed to do now or later. 

 

I'm also not sure of the "plus interest" bit. What is your thinking around this?

 

My dad paid £10,500 (cash and part-ex) however for the sake of the extra £500, I really don't want to go down the fast track route. Therefore I was thinking of putting £10,000 as the value of the claim, and with fees it brings it to £10,445. So does the total value (including fees) need to be under £10,000 for small claims? If so, I will adjust the value accordingly. 

[pringles1981]

Why on earth would I be misleading you? Everything I have told you is fact. Do you really think I have nothing better to do than spend my days speaking to people, getting advice, on how to move things forward, especially as I have spent a lot of time over the last 6 months trying to sort this out. 

 

And I agree this shouldn't have gone on longer than it did. Like I explained my father was too trusting for his own good. If I had known then what I know now, I would have definitely intervened. 

 

I was advised to set out in paragraphs so that he can either admit, deny or non-admittal/deny each point. 

 

Incidentally, you will also be giving up interest at 8% per year because that would be included in the small claims figure. That means that your £10,000 would be earning £800 a year we should be a nice little earner on top of the money you are claiming. - I don't understand this point. Why would / should I claim interest. I don't want to be seen as unreasonable, and taking him for everything he's got scenario. I just want what's owed .  

 

And I don't understand about what you are saying about the limits. On the online form, I need to enter a claim amount. When I put £10,000 in, it adds the court fee (£455) and takes the total amount to £10,445 (as attached). Same if I put £9950 as you have suggested - with the court fee this goes to £10,405. So, what I am asking is, does the total amount need to be £10,000 or less (including the fees), or do I ignore the fees as such. 

 

Also, are you now saying I need to send him a letter of claim prior to completing the claim form online, as we discussed earlier? Even though I have issued a letter warning of court action? 

fees.pdf

[pringles1981]

I sought advice from Citizens Advice and my employee assistant service at the beginning of this saga. Had I known or come across this forum, I would have asked for step by step advice from yourselves to help me. I only came across this webpage following an internet search with a few keywords, and I registered straightawaty. 

 

And I do appreciate all the advice and time you have spent reading and responding to me. 

 

And obviously I want to take advantage of the system wherever possible but also be seen to following the correct procedures etc. Like I said, I've never been to court, filed a proceeding, so this is all very new to me and obviously makes me nervous too. 

 

Please can you confirm when I would send the letter of claim ? Prior to completing the claim form online, as we discussed earlier, giving 14 days to respond? And this would be sent recorded delivery, and on the 15th day, I complete the claim form?

 

[pringles1981]

Wouldn't the letter of claim be classed as the 3rd letter I sent on 1st May? Or are you saying it needed more detail? And that I needed to act on it on the 15th day, and because I didn't I need to send another one? 

 

[pringles1981]

I 100% made notes following phone conversations so that I could look back on it if needed. Unfortunately, my father didn't, however I have his phone log history with the trader (which is quite lengthy) which shows the extent to which he was in contact with him. 

 

I also have the screenshots of the text messages from my dad's phone, and my phone. I will get the ones from my brother in laws phone too. 

 

I was going to print them out, as screenshots per page, but the index thing sounds like a very good idea too. It might take me some time to do, so I will make a start on that tomorrow now...

 

Thank you for all your help

 

[pringles1981]

brill, thanks!

[pringles1981]

Hi, - How does the below sound? Thanks...

 

14 June 2021

 

Letter of court claim

 

Dear XXX

 

Re: Complaint about faulty goods

 

I have not received a reply to my letters dated 6 April 2021, 22 April 2021 and 1 May 2021 despite strenuous attempts to contact you regarding the faulty goods (i.e. the vehicle, a Jaguar XF 3.0d V6, reg no: XXXX XXX) which my late father bought from you in October 2019. The letters explained what is wrong with the goods and why I am entitled to a refund.

 

Very shortly after my father purchased the car from you, the vehicle developed serious defects, which were reported to you, and despite various attempts at repairs, the vehicle has continued to exhibit problems.

 

My father was in constant contact with you from October 2019 – December 2020, reporting the various faults and requesting updates as to when the repairs would be completed.

 

I, along with my brother in law, have been in contact with you since January 2021, requesting repair updates and on numerous occasions, I have specially requested to speak to the mechanic repairing the car and you have refused this request. I have also asked for access to the vehicle and you have declined these requests previously, so I have been unable to understand the condition of the vehicle as it now is. I have been prevented from understanding what work may have been carried out so far and there has not been clear communication regarding the work which you believe needs doing. In addition, you have not provided me with any evidence of the work you state that has been carried out.

 

For the last 5 months since I have been in contact with you, you have not only withheld access to the vehicle, but also moved it to new premises and refused to divulge its whereabouts despite me requesting the location of the car repeatedly.

 

The vehicle has been in your possession (on and off) for 20 months during the entire 21 months of my father’s ownership and thereafter.

 

My current position still remains that you sold my late father a vehicle which should have been in satisfactory condition and yet it's clear that it's not and by your own admission it apparently needs a new engine despite the fact that it has scarcely been driven since it was purchased.

 

Therefore, I am once again requesting a full refund of the purchase price of £10,995 on the grounds that the goods were not of satisfactory quality under the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

 

In addition, the Consumer Rights Act 2015 also states that “service to be performed with reasonable care and skill” and “service to be performed within a reasonable amount of time”. It has taken an unreasonable amount of time for you to (attempt to) repair the faults reported, having had the car for a considerable amount of time. I am therefore exercising my final right to reject the goods.

 

I would like a reply as soon as possible so that I know you have received this letter. If you don’t agree to the refund, could you please send me a detailed response saying why you don’t agree.

 

To avoid taking court action, I am willing to use an Alternative Dispute Resolution to resolve the problem, as stated in my previous letters.

 

If I do not receive a satisfactory response from you within 14 days of the date of this letter, I intend to issue proceedings against you in the county court without further notice. This may increase your liability for costs.

 

I refer you to the Practice Direction on pre-action conduct under the Civil Procedure Rules, and in particular to paragraph 13-16 which sets out the sanctions the court may impose if you fail to comply with the Practice Direction.

 

I look forward to your acknowledgement.

 

Yours faithfully,

[pringles1981]

Thanks for the quick response, and for the suggested wording. I will review and amend accordingly today, and send back for your final glance. 

 

I kept the ADR in as a way of showing that I would happy to discuss with mediation, and if an acceptable offer was put forward then of course we would consider it. As he hasn't responded to the offer of ADR so far, its unlikely he will to this anyway. Aren't some of the conciliation services offered free? 

 

Do you have it in writing from him that he refuses to tell you the location of the vehicle? Or why he moved it? - I don't have it in writing from him, but i have confirmed it back in writing to him following a phone conversation. He moved it as he does not carry out repairs to vehicles at his garage, so had been moved to a "specialist" to carry out whatever work needed to be done. 

 

And in regards to suing him for less - the way I see it is, if we had the car at home, in working order, and we were to sell it privately, we would probably be looking to sell it for the current market value which was about £8-9K last time I looked. I just don't know if its worth the hassle of going about the £10k mark, and it go on fast track, and then potentially am faced with paying his legal bills etc