PE ANPR PCN - overstay - appeal failed - Wigmore Shopping Centre, Luton, LU2 9TA

[FTMDave]

Firstly, don't feel you're stumped because PE refused your appeal.  That was always going to happen.  PE and similar companies never, ever accept appeals - ever.

 

In your appeal did you admit to being the driver?

 

It would be useful if you give us the exact address of the car park.

[FTMDave]

If you've never been in this position before, it's understandable to think that appealing is a good idea.  You were a genuine customer, you were there with a small child, etc.

 

However, as you can imagine we see a load of cases every week, and the PPCs never accept appeals (from the standard reply I bet they never even read yours).  Even worse, the motorist generally writes something like "I parked in ..." and outs themselves as the driver, whereas previously the PPC only knew who the keeper of the car was, not who was driving.

 

But none of this is fatal!

 

As dx says, there is a minimum ten minutes' grace period.  So the fleecers are after you for overstaying FOUR MINUTES.  An extra four minutes is completely understandable when you have a small child and the necessity of taking personal hygiene very seriously in the times of COVID

[FTMDave]

See what others suggest too, but I would think that now you should do nothing - regarding PE at least.

 

Over the next few months they will send you various letters that are meant to be threatening, and probably get debt collectors to do the same, no doubt pretending the amount has increased to try to frighten you and then maybe offering a discount to attempt to con you.  All hot air from paper tigers that can be safely ignored.

 

However, if they ever send you a formal Letter Before Action it'll be time to reply and give them both barrels.

 

If Wigmore is near to you it would be useful if you could go and get photos of the signage.  Also get on to the council to see if they have planning permission for their signs.  Actions like this begin to build up a case to undermine PE's rubbish.

 

Oh, and it's not a fine, it's just an invoice from a private company, big difference. 

 

 

[FTMDave]

Yes, you can pay £60 that you don't owe to a bunch of conmen and have an easy life.

 

Or you can fight them and yes, you will have to put a certain amount of work in.

 

As a campaigning consumer site we would prefer you did the latter!  But it's up to you.

 

The only effort with the future letters is the opening of them.  They're just standard nonsense of which PE send out hundreds every week, hoping to scare the naive.

 

There are 263 successes on the thread HB posted.  That is a vast underestimate as in all 263 cases there was a specific moment to point to when the PPC was beaten.  In many other cases the PPC just gave up but the thread wasn't included.

 

Reasons why PE's claim is rubbish

   - they don't own this land, if you had really done something you shouldn't have with your car it's the landowner who should pursue you, unless they have a contract with PE allowing to issue court claims which they nearly always haven't

   - PE hardly ever bother with planning permission, making their signs illegal

   - the signs are pants, when you pull in there's nothing stated about having to pay £60 for overstaying and they state "only for shopping on site" (so you can't go to the barber's or have a meal then?!!)

   - it's very unlikely that the original planning permission for the car park stated a limit of two hours, personally I'm allergic to shopping but even I could spend two hours there given the range of shops, the eateries, the barber's, the bookies, the pub, etc.

   - if a grace period of 10 minutes is OK in normal times for an adult, 14 minutes is quite reasonable when you have a small child and the three of you had to deep wash your hands before you left (with that queue for the bathroom too ;-)).

 

 

[FTMDave]

20 hours ago, JKA_needshelp said:

Struggled to see if they had planning permission. Did loads of searches, but the council website, is not easy to find things.

 

You could e-mail or phone the appropriate council office.  Ask them

   - if PE have PP for the signs, poles & cameras, and

   - if they can show you the original PP for the Wigmore Shopping Centre.  Bet it didn't have a limit of two hours!

 

I've converted your photo to PDF so only registered Caggers can see it, best to keep the fleecers guessing.

[FTMDave]

Good grief dx, is there no end to your encyclopedic knowledge 

 

Brilliant, so no planning permission then.

 

I see in this case PE threatened court and then ran away.

[FTMDave]

13 minutes ago, JKA_needshelp said:

That was 2019, and they only had PP up until 2018, so since then they could have of course had PP.

 

Do we know what happened with that person after they were threatened with court?

 

So e-mail the council planning department and ask if they have obtained PP for the site since 2018.

 

I think it's 99.9999% sure PE gave up, otherwise the motorist would have asked us for help with the court case, but you could PM the person and ask.

[FTMDave]

Regarding court, try to put yourself in PE's shoes (probably difficult as you're not a crook or a conman, but let's try!)

 

They don't really want to take motorists to court.  Small claims court is set up to be as informal as possible and to discourage the use of solicitors.  Even if you win you're only allowed to claim a very small amount of legal costs from the other party, certainly not enough to pay for a solicitor.  Unfortunately for PE, while they are very experienced at bullying & threatening, they know sweet FA about the law and so invariably do go running to a local solicitor.  So even if they win the case they lose IYSWIM as what they win is a lot less than they have to pay in legal costs.

 

On the other hand if they never do court then the word will get out that they're paper tigers, so sometimes they do start court cases.

 

Conclusion - it's unlikely, but not impossible, that they would take you to court.

 

The sort of motorist they take to court is the type that takes their stupid procedures seriously or shows ignorance of the law or doesn't reply to an LBA (so might have moved and in any case may not defend a claim).  So to increase the odds further we recommend ignoring their drivel up to LBA stage and then giving them both barrels to let them know you know their signage is illegal and you were within a grace period and they would have a load of hassle with a defended court case.  At that point they nearly always go scurrying back under their stone.