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    • Honestly you are all amazing on this site, thank you so much for your help and time. ill keep an eye out and only return when i receive a claim letter for sure also, i updated my address with amex and tsb before i even missed payments. the initial address was my family home but i dont reside there. to avoid a bombardment of letters there i have now updated my address, will they send all threats etc to the new address? Or old address?   do you reccomend i send both tsb and amex my update in address via a letter?
    • Your point 4 deals with that and puts them to strict proof .....but realistically they are not in a position to state that within their particulars they were not the creditor at the time of default but naturally assume the OC would have...so always worth challenging and if you get a DJ who knows his onions on the day may ask for further evidence from the OC internal accounts system. 
    • I see, shame, I think if a claim is 'someone was served' then proof of that should be mandatory. Appreciate your input into the WS whenever you get chance, thanks in advance
    • Paper trail off the original creditor often confirms the default and issue of a notice...not having or being able to disclose the actual copy or being able to produce a copy less so. Creditors are not compelled to keep copies of the actual default notice so you will in most cases get a reconstituted version but must contain accurate figures/dates/format.     .    
    • Including Default Notice Andy? Ok, I think this is the best I can do.. it all makes sense with references to their WS. They have included exhibits that dates don't match the WS about them, small but still.. if you're going to reference letters giving dates, then the exhibits should be correct, no? I know I redacted them too much, but one of the dates differs to the WS by a few months. IN THE ******** County Court Claim No. [***] BETWEEN: LC Asset 2 S.A.R.L CLAIMANT AND [***] DEFENDANT ************ _________________________ ________ WITNESS STATEMENT OF [***] _________________________ ________ I, [***], being the Defendant in this case will state as follows; I make this Witness Statement in support of my defence in this claim. 1. I understand that the claimant is an Assignee, a buyer of defunct or bad debts, which are bought on mass portfolios at a much-reduced cost to the amount claimed and which the original creditors have already written off as a capital loss and claimed against taxable income as confirmed in the claimant’s witness statement exhibit by way of the Deed of Assignment. As an assignee or creditor as defined in section 189 of the CCA this applies to this new requirement on assignment of rights. This means that when an assignee purchases debts (or otherwise acquires rights under a credit agreement) it also acquires certain obligations to the borrower including the duty to comply with CCA requirements (such as the rules on statements and notices and other post-contractual information). The assignee becomes the creditor under the agreement. This ensures that essential consumer protections under the CCA cannot be circumvented by assigning the debt to a third party. 2. The Claim relates to an alleged Credit Card agreement between the Defendant and Bank of Scotland plc. Save insofar of any admittance it is accepted that the Defendant has had contractual agreements with Bank of Scotland plc in the past, the Defendant is unaware as to what alleged debt the Claimant refers. 3. The Defendant requested a copy of the CCA on the 24/12/2022 along with the standard fee of £1.00 postal order, to which the defendant received a reply from the Claimant dated 06/02/2023. To this date, the Claimant has failed to disclose a valid agreement and proof as per their claim that this is enforceable, that Default Notice and Notice of Assignment were sent to and received by the Defendant, on which their claim relies. The Claimant is put to strict proof to verify and confirm that the exhibit *** is a true copy of the agreement and are the true Terms and Conditions as issued at the time of inception of the online application and execution of the agreement. 4. Point 3 is noted. The Claimant pleads that a default notice has been served upon the defendant as evidenced by Exhibit [***]. The claimant is put to strict proof to verify the service of the above in accordance with s136 and s196 Law of Property Act 1925. 5. Point 6 is noted and disputed. The Defendant cannot recall ever having received the notice of assignment as evidenced in the exhibit marked ***. The claimant is put to strict proof to verify the service of the above in accordance with s136 and s196 Law of Property Act 1925. 6. Point 11 is noted and disputed. See 3. 7. Point 12 is noted, the Defendant doesn’t recall receiving contact where documentation is provided as per the Claimants obligations under CCA. In addition, the Claimant pleads letters were sent on dates given, yet those are not the letters evidenced in their exhibits *** 8. Point 13 is noted and denied. Claimant is put to strict proof to prove allegations. 9. The Claimant did not provide a true copy of the CCA in response to the Defendants request of 24/12/2022. The Claimant further claims that the documents are sufficient to pursue a Judgement and are therefore copies of original documents in their possession. Conclusion 10. Without the Claimant providing a valid true copy of the executed Credit agreement that complies with the CCA, the Claimant has no grounds on which to enforce this alleged debt. 11. The Defendant was not given ample evidence to prove the debt and therefore was not required to enter settlement negotiations. Should the debt be proved in the future, the Defendant is willing to enter such negotiations with the Claimant. On receipt of this claim I could not recall the precise details of the agreement or any debt and sought clarity from the claimant by way of a Section 78 request. The Claimant failed to comply. I can only assume as this was due to the Claimant not having any enforceable documentation and issuing a claim in hope of an undefended default judgment.   Statement of Truth I, ********, the Defendant, believe the facts stated within this Witness Statement to be true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in it’s truth. Signed: _________________________ _______ Dated: _____________________
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Loans to pay off overdrafts & cards ???


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Has anybody else been in the position of taking out loans to pay off overdrafts...or even credit cards.....the level of which themselves have been caused in great part due to bank or card default charges !!

 

Surely in this scenario, then you should be able to claim back the interest portion of that loan that relates to the paying back of the charges portion of the original overdraft ???

 

ie; You would not have taken out such a big loan in the first place had you not had all the original charges !!!

 

You are in effect taking out a loan to repay the charges which were wrong in the first place, and then paying additional (often much higher) interest !!!:-x :-x

All opinions and advice I offer are purely my own, and are offered without any liability. If unsure seek the help of a licensed professional

...just because something's in print doesn't mean its true.... just look at you Banks T&C's for example !

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Gizmo. Read your thread and sounds like they are using the loan portion of claim as a stalling tactic. I gather this has been made doubly difficult due to the Joint account issues. Myaccount is just my own, but My thinking now is that I put in the standard claim for charges on that account over period, and then a second claim later for the interest on the loan axccount once first resolved? I wonder if this would be possible and work ?

All opinions and advice I offer are purely my own, and are offered without any liability. If unsure seek the help of a licensed professional

...just because something's in print doesn't mean its true.... just look at you Banks T&C's for example !

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  • 3 months later...

I have today just sent a PM to some of the members I discussed this issue with before.

They had then had some ideas about working on a spreadsheet to help in working out reclaiming loans due to charges.

Hopefully, they may have made some progress, or have some further comments now as a result of reviewing the matter.

I will keep you all posted as and when hear back from them.

 

Snnopsmum

Thanks for joining in !!

Do you know how to put a link to this thread into your signature?

Might help to encourage more to join in the debate.

Regards

PM

All opinions and advice I offer are purely my own, and are offered without any liability. If unsure seek the help of a licensed professional

...just because something's in print doesn't mean its true.... just look at you Banks T&C's for example !

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Can't see that my sig has changed yet- do I have to do a new post before it shows? Guess i'm about to find out!:rolleyes:

 

Aargghhh, not working!!

 

Snoopsmum

I think the general rule with sigs showing up on threads is:

a/ Your sig only show up the first 3 posts you make on that particular thread (you've made 4 or 5 here already)

b/ I think you have to type in a minimum number of characters,,otherwise everytime someone just types something like "i agree" or "bump" etc then their sig will show.

c/ Only good looking people are allowed to have sigs...........okay I made that last one up !!!

 

Try posting on another thread, and see if your sig shows up there?

 

Regards

All opinions and advice I offer are purely my own, and are offered without any liability. If unsure seek the help of a licensed professional

...just because something's in print doesn't mean its true.... just look at you Banks T&C's for example !

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We took out our first loan because of charges, now you have me thinking. Long story but I think I will throw this into the ring to keep them on their toes.

 

 

Good move Battleaxe

Your very very welcome here.

I think the time is ripe to now really bring this issue to the forefront, as it is yet another way they they have sneakily taken advantage of us !

If you think about it, it really amounts to much the same principle as the extra overdraft interest we reclaim in our standard claims, and we are all winning on that front.... so I think it really is reclaimable on the same principle.

Please spread the word !

All opinions and advice I offer are purely my own, and are offered without any liability. If unsure seek the help of a licensed professional

...just because something's in print doesn't mean its true.... just look at you Banks T&C's for example !

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Elizabeth

Words fail me about their behaviour !!

Hell has a special corner set aside for these people !!!

Which Bank was it ?

Please post a link to your thread when you start to kick butt over this one !!

All the best

All opinions and advice I offer are purely my own, and are offered without any liability. If unsure seek the help of a licensed professional

...just because something's in print doesn't mean its true.... just look at you Banks T&C's for example !

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If there are any moderators looking in here, I think there are some stories of Bank behaviour that various Press organisations might be interested in?

Would it be worthwhile drawing this threads attention to Bankfodder and Dave?

PM

All opinions and advice I offer are purely my own, and are offered without any liability. If unsure seek the help of a licensed professional

...just because something's in print doesn't mean its true.... just look at you Banks T&C's for example !

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YES........BUT !!!!

 

This is all presuming it was a consolidation loan taken out with the same lender (bank) in order to pay off borrowing on several accounts (eg, a personal account and a Credit cards) with them, is it not ?

 

What if the loan was taken out to pay off several lenders eg, bank overdrafts and cards with several providers, each of which had imposed charges?

 

How then do you aportion liability for the extra interest you end up paying on a consolidation loan ?

 

Would you have to take seperate actions against each of the lenders for the extra interest incurred as a result of a consolidation loan ??

All opinions and advice I offer are purely my own, and are offered without any liability. If unsure seek the help of a licensed professional

...just because something's in print doesn't mean its true.... just look at you Banks T&C's for example !

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But if these accounts had charges, would you not be in the process of taking action against them already?

 

Yes hopefully you would.

But what I am saying is this;

If you had taken a loan elsewhere to repay the borrowing you owed them, some of which was due to their charges.

You would be paying interest on that loan to your loan company.

The loan company would not be liable for the extra interest you were paying due to charges you had incurred with another lender. the original lender would.

So, how would you approach this? Would you then have to take a seperate action against the original lender for the extra interest you had been put to by borrowing elsewhere?

This could be a real tricky one?

(PS: I am not fortunately in this situation, I am just throwing this in for debate for the benefit of those viewing this thread)

  • Haha 1

All opinions and advice I offer are purely my own, and are offered without any liability. If unsure seek the help of a licensed professional

...just because something's in print doesn't mean its true.... just look at you Banks T&C's for example !

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  • 2 weeks later...
thanks for the thread Photoman. Reminds me of how my downward spiral started reading some of the distressing posts.

 

o.K NOW for a question. What if you get a consolidation loan over 5 years to pay your debts but then pay it off say after a year (with another consolidation!) How do you go about calculating interest aportioned to paying off your debts on the first loan if you haven't incurred 5 years worth of interest?

 

Might be being thick here by the way cos not thought it through but comments appreciated .

 

Halibunny

In simple terms, the way I see it is, that the Bank that gave you the original charges are responsible for all and any susequent additional interest you paid elsewhere, and anywhere, as a result of any additional borrowing you made to repay those charges. You need to work out what interest liability you incurred, wherever it may be, as a result of repaying those charges. Hope that makes sense.

All opinions and advice I offer are purely my own, and are offered without any liability. If unsure seek the help of a licensed professional

...just because something's in print doesn't mean its true.... just look at you Banks T&C's for example !

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Pen,

Which bank was it with ?

Is the account still active ?

See this thread:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/80683-please-post-how-far.html

 

The Banks are all desperately trying to tell us one thing, whilst the law is telling us another. It appears that they are trying to imply that data gets destroyed after 6 years...... however, there seems to be some debate about how legally they re obliged to hold onto stuff much longer, as a legal requirement regards actions upon money laundereing etc.

I think you need to put some serious pressure on them to provide you stuff, threaten Information Commisioners office action, or court action.

Also, if they DO try to tell you stuff is destroyed ask them for:

1/ The reasons why?

2/ When

4/By whom

3/ How

 

Then ask them to provide certificates of destruction, and a signed statement from the data controller specifying all the details in those 4 questions.

A data controller can personally get into a lot of trouble for incorrectly handling data (even prison)...... so lets see how far they are prepared to put their necks on the line for their darling employers !!??

All opinions and advice I offer are purely my own, and are offered without any liability. If unsure seek the help of a licensed professional

...just because something's in print doesn't mean its true.... just look at you Banks T&C's for example !

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Hi PM,

Its my account with the TSB, I can not get any information from the for either mine or O/Hs account.it's been quite complicated. I have issued proceedings with lloyds for the SAR details going back to all my banking history even micro finch.

 

however they took OH to court for his loan and have never ever sent him his agreement, we have put in our defence, the 12 days for CCA has well and truly gone by and we are nearly reaching the 30 day point, yet still no corrispondence they just have not got the agreement. the forced OH to take a consolation loan but he refused to sign it so in their wisdon they gave it to him anyway without his knowledge.

 

My loan however is a different matter, they have sent me a copy of the agreement. in relation to my CAA i have a court date in may for claiming back some chargers as I cannot get all my account details hence the SAR proceedings. my claim for chargers is £6,800 my loan was for 11,000 but i still owe them 7K the payed of my first loan for which was for 5 K but i had already paid 3k, and only had 2 yrs left to pay, plus chargers plus overdraft and OD interest with it. I only hope the court demands they provide me with the info i need as i was also missold peps. but TSB have wrote to me in the past to say they have destroyed all post 6 yrs and said they cannot find pre 6 years except for my loan agreement, funny or what. just how would i proceed if they do not comply with the court in relation to the SAR. and since i am in court proceedings for the chargers i am not sure what i can claime from the loan, as far as I am concerned it would have been paid by now if they had excepted smaller repayments instead of piling more debt on to me over a much longer period

 

Pen.

 

very complicated

 

Pen

Pen,

I am not an expert regards CCA agreements. I gateher though that if they cannot find your original agreement, it is unenforcable. There are some threads on here that help yopu deal with that. Use the search facility, and hunt them out. This should help your O/H.

Data Protection Complaints – Information Commissioner’s Office (ICO)

 

However regards your own situation, all I can say is that you really have to keep at them about evidence and proof of the information. If it is not available, then you must insist on the information I posted above. If need be visit the Information Commisioners website, and you can get infor on how to force compliance. If that does't work, then you ned to threaten them with court action to comply with your SAR. Agin there are threads on here by people in the same situation, and these can guide you in how to issue proceedings for SAR non-compliance.

I suggest you maybe send a PM to one of the site helpers or Moderators for help here, as it sounds like time is short?

All opinions and advice I offer are purely my own, and are offered without any liability. If unsure seek the help of a licensed professional

...just because something's in print doesn't mean its true.... just look at you Banks T&C's for example !

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  • 2 weeks later...
Hi PM, Lloyd's did not acknowledged my service of the N1 for the SAR so the court has issued judgment for the claimant (little old me):p.

 

It is ordered that the defendant must pay the claimant a amount which the court will decide and costs. A disposal hearing will take place on the 25th June.

 

Hopefully the judge will then order Lloyd's to comply with my SAR and i will get all the information I need to claim the interest on my loan and pre 6 yr chargers.

 

I will keep you all informed of what happens in court.

 

pen

 

Very exciting !!

 

I hope that everyone here is taking note that this can be done, and how to go about putting pressure on them.

 

Well done Pen !!

All opinions and advice I offer are purely my own, and are offered without any liability. If unsure seek the help of a licensed professional

...just because something's in print doesn't mean its true.... just look at you Banks T&C's for example !

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  • 1 month later...

Just wanted to revive this thread.

 

The original intention of this thread was to bring to peoples attention the additional hidden manner in which Banks then go on to further profit from their original unlawful acts.

They do this by dishing out consolidation loans to make us repay excessive borrowing. This original "borrowing" as often largely down to the fact that we've had to deal with their charges in the first place.

So, we often take out these loans at high rates and are in actual effect paying masses of interest ON TOP of the charges !!

 

I am now experiencing this first hand:

 

In response to my claim submitted, the Bank have tried to counter it with a defence claiming that there are some outstanding sums on a loan I took out with them some time ago.

 

They have now since filing this defence made an offer, and very kindly (!!) offered to waive the outstanding sums on the loan claimed in the defence as part of the offer.

 

I have written back stating that I am not prepared to accept the fact that they have any rights to use the loan as a bargaining factor, and that it should be discounted from any further negotiations.

 

The actual fact is:

1/ The loan account was actually settled some time ago by a large lump sum payment in leiu of the full sum.

2/ I was informed at the time that the lump sum was accepted as full and final payment, and I actually have written documents from them that prove that; firstly the account is closed, secondly that the closing balance is showning as zero, and also that any recovery actions had been recalled.

 

So, I've got them there. Hard evidence.

 

I then went on to state that should they still contend that there is in actual fact a sum outstanding on the account (despite what they originally told me, and despite all my hard evidence to the contrary), that I will be issuing a counter claim based upon the fact that the loan was used to repay borrowing on account, much of which (actually MOST of which) was due to their charges in the first place !!

I have informed them that if they maintain this attitude, that the counter claim I would issue wouldl actually be much larger than the sum they are trying to claim is outstanding !!

 

Anybody else out there with similar experiences ??

 

Regards

 

PM

All opinions and advice I offer are purely my own, and are offered without any liability. If unsure seek the help of a licensed professional

...just because something's in print doesn't mean its true.... just look at you Banks T&C's for example !

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  • 1 month later...

Pen

 

I wrote a formal "Defence to counterclaim" and filed it with the court, outlining the facts, and all the evidence I had in support of them, and also sent a copy to the solicitors....

 

I think it really spooked them !!

 

They quickly wrote back, contesting that it wasn't a "counterclaim", but was in actual fact a "set-off" claim, and protesting about how the two were distinctly different ....... mmmmmmmmm yeah right !

 

Such protestations about the terminolgy are irrelevent really. Regardless of what they try to now call it, the intent of their actions is what will really concern the courts most, and it was very very obviously a retaliatory gesture (without any grounding I may add, and they should have checked on that first), which the court will still take a dim view of.

 

They have dropped any attempts to claim the sums back in any way, and not mentioned them since !!

 

PM

All opinions and advice I offer are purely my own, and are offered without any liability. If unsure seek the help of a licensed professional

...just because something's in print doesn't mean its true.... just look at you Banks T&C's for example !

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  • 4 weeks later...

Just wanted to revive this thread.

 

The Banks are getting away with all these additional "secret" profits, from encouraging people to take out loans to repay borrowing.

 

In many cases, much of the "borrowing" is comprised of charges that have been wrongly applied to an account in the first place.

 

So in effect, we get clobbered with penalty charges and additional interest on the account they are applied to...... THEN ALSO.. we take out subsequent loans with the bank (often under great pressure from them to do so, or face dire recovery consequences),.... and these subsequent loans are also often at higher rates (because of poor credit ratings, again due to charges), which then add yet more interest onto the charges !!

 

I think this is an important issue, that we should all now start to address more seriously.

 

I am now working on further claims, which will include a portion for claiming the additional interest incurred through these loans.

 

I have been working on a spreadsheet to help calculate this, and plan to make this available to all, once I feel it is correct.

 

I am confident that it works, and it calculates the portion of interest upon a loan that can be attributed to the original penalties. It sits in and ties up nicely with existing spreadsheets, and carefully calculates only such elements without trying to claim for anything twice over.

 

I am quite excited by it, and hope it can start to be incorporated into a lot of claims as standard (or at least provide a basis for similar sheets).

 

First though I would appreciate if any Moderators, site helpers, or members with experience of prior claims including loans would take a quick look to see if indeed correct, and does the intended job.

 

If any of this group would please PM me with an email address I can send it to, I will forward for your trying out.

 

Regards to all

 

PM

  • Haha 1

All opinions and advice I offer are purely my own, and are offered without any liability. If unsure seek the help of a licensed professional

...just because something's in print doesn't mean its true.... just look at you Banks T&C's for example !

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PS: I would like to just add, that I have tried out this sheet myself in regards to some loans taken out for such purposes.

 

I was shocked at just how much additional interest has been paid due to these practices.

 

For anyone who may think the sums are trifling, and not worth the trouble...think again !!

All opinions and advice I offer are purely my own, and are offered without any liability. If unsure seek the help of a licensed professional

...just because something's in print doesn't mean its true.... just look at you Banks T&C's for example !

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  • 2 months later...

Right everyone

 

I'M BUMPING THIS THREAD !!!

 

I really think this is a very much overlooked area of claims.

 

A lot of people get themselves deep into debt with their Banks due in great part to penalty charges.

 

The Banks then "offer" (... more like "consolidate your debts into a loan, or we'll take recovery action) a loan !!

 

The simple act of matter in such circumstances is, that they are obviously profiting further in a material sense from the additional interest upon the loan that is due to repayment of the original charges !!

 

Now, the reason I am reviving this thread now, is I have two claims on the back burner that I am planning to start action on this week.

 

I have calculated the charges, and the interest levied upon the same account as per the usual format of claims.

 

I have also started calculating their subsequent gains from further interest upon consolidatio loans taken with the same bank over the period.

 

The results are quite shocking.... a veritable paper chain of :

 

penalty charges (and interest on account)....then loans to clear O/D incurring more interest due to charges.... resultant strain on finances giving rise to O/D on initial acccount... further loans to clear... further interest....further charges... another loan etc etc etc

 

The extra interest they are gaining just from the initial charges is not confined to just that on the account the charges were applied to... it snowballs.. and their gains are ever increasing.

 

I will not pretend that this is easy to work out, it is complicated and intricate, and their extra gains are sometimes hard to spot.

BUT.. I think that even in the course of settling our usual claims, they rely upon the fact that we have not accounted for these sums.

 

For all those who can be motivated to make the effort, I implore you to do so.... the results will shock you !!

 

PM

  • Haha 1

All opinions and advice I offer are purely my own, and are offered without any liability. If unsure seek the help of a licensed professional

...just because something's in print doesn't mean its true.... just look at you Banks T&C's for example !

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  • 1 year later...

This is the issue I am trying to bring peoples awareness to:

 

Consider an example scenario:

 

You have an account, and run up a £1000 overdraft.

Say for example £500 of that O/d is charges.

First off that means you pay for example 18.5% p.a. interest on the extra £500, (which we all do presently try to account for in our claims)

You then take a consolidation loan to repay the £1000, at say 15% p.a. which will be paid by monthly installments from the original account.

This means that you are paying an additional 15% p.a. (compounded over the course of the loan) on the initial £500 and also on the extra overdraft interest you've already given them.

PLUS... because you are repaying it each month from your account, this could mean, that because of all the extra interest, you are more overdrawn on that account than you should be, and so also end up paying yet another 18.5 % p.a (compounded over the period of the loan) o/d interest from your original account to cover the extra interest you are paying out on the loan.

 

So in short:

They give you penalty charges & charge you interest on them.

They then charge extra loan interest on these charges and interest.

They then charge you extra o/d interest on the extra loan interest.

 

This means they have hit you 3 times over with additional interest (all compounded) on the initial charges.

 

Then of course there is the increased repayment insurance, because the loan is bigger than you really needed... along with the extra interest on the bigger premiums you need pay for the insurance !!

 

.....It's not so obvious that all this is the case, until you start to analyse it this way..... and that's probably just the way they like it !!

All opinions and advice I offer are purely my own, and are offered without any liability. If unsure seek the help of a licensed professional

...just because something's in print doesn't mean its true.... just look at you Banks T&C's for example !

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