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      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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Interesting Packlink / Hermes / eBay claim - where does the liability lie? **WON**


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Hi all

 

First, I have to say, this is an excellent forum. I have already learned so much just reading some of the posts, and I am glad I stumbled across it!

 

I am after some honest advice on the merits of a potential claim. It will be a familiar story, but with some (I think) interesting complications, which muddy the waters. 

 

December 2019 - I received a Google Nest Hub Max (worth £219, in John Lewis). An unwanted gift, so I listed it on ebay, and sold for £150 ish. I am a private seller.

20 January - sold the item for £150 ish. Offered the buyer multiple postage options - Hermes without compensation, or Royal Mail with insurance. Buyer opted for Hermes without compensation.

20 January - I contacted buyer to confirm that this option had no compensation, and please could they confirm they were happy

22 January - I received to response, to contacted buyer again to say that unless they confirmed otherwise by the end of the day, I would send using Hermes without compensation, but that this would be at the buyer's risk.

23 January - dropped off package at Hermes drop off point. I did not purchase extra compensation.

29 January - buyer contacted me to say package had not arrived 

29 January - spoke to Hermes online chat, they launched a 48 hour investigation

31 January - no response, so spoke to Hermes online chat, they launched another 48 hour investigation

31 January - I had lost faith in their online customer services, so wrote complaint email to CEO specifying the above, asking for confirmation of status of package, and that if lost, Hermes will compensate me for full value of item

2 February - receive response from CEO office to apologise, confirm that parcel is "the parcel is lost in our network", and to wash their hands off the problem, because: "There are some ways that parcels can go missing which we have no control over e.g. Parcels can get damaged and items of the parcel can be miss placed, parcels can be miss sorted into incorrect trailers without a scan, or labels can fall off while going through our machinery", and "Please contact Packlink as the parcel was booked through them therefore they will be able to discuss with you the claims process as you have paid them for the service not us, therefore this will need to be done on their system"

2 February - reported the item lost to Packlink, and ask for compensation for full value 

 

My position:

 

I know that some might say it it is "only" £210, but I would like to fight this as a matter of principle.

 

I think that the buyer implicitly accepted the risk of the package getting lost by paying for the cheaper option, and by not responding when I offered the more expensive one. However, I suspect eBay will side with the buyer, and I will be forced to give a refund. If so, Hermes have already washed their hands of the problem, and passed me to Packlink. I think this is wrong: even though I purchased it from Packlink, I chose Hermes from the options they presented, and I understood that my contract was with Hermes, not some intermediary. In any case, Packlink will refuse to compensate me for £210, as I didn't purchase the compensation. I think that is wrong on principle: just as I should not have to purchase insurance against food poisoning when I eat in a restaurant, I should not have to purchase compensation protection when sending a package.

 

My plan is:

 

1. Await response from eBay.

2. If eBay force me to refund the buyer, despite buyer implicitly accepting liability, I will await response from Packlink.

3. If Packlink don't compensate me for the full value...then?

 

My questions:

 

1. Should I make a claim against Hermes, or Packlink? I am very happy to launch a UK Small Claims Court case, or the EU equivalent if I have to go to Packlink (I understand that Brexit doesn't affect that, as we're still in the transition period)

2. What is my strongest argument to make in my claim form, and how should it be worded, i.e. what are the key words to include / references to relevant legal issues (is this negligence by Hermes? Implicit contract with Hermes? Is Packlink liable beyond the compensation cap of £25 or something?)

 

Thank you so much in advance for your help!

Edited by david_v_goliath
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9 minutes ago, Hannya said:

 

Your biggest mistake was to offer your buyer a cheap postage option with inadequate insurance. Obviously they're going to go for the cheaper option because they're covered by both ebay's Money Back Guarantee, PayPal Buyer Protection and their card.

 

Insurance is to protect you, the seller, and all packages should be sent by the appropriate postage method with adequate insurance, because you're the one that's going to lose out here. It's the seller's responsibility to get the item to the buyer.

 

eBay won't reimburse you.

 

Hermes/Packlink may reimburse you the amount of cover you did have for that postage method, if any.

 

Thanks Hannya - I think you're right about my mistake, I won't even offer those non-compensation offers again. But I also think that by choosing those options, the buyer accepted the risk. I think that I cemented that by explicitly telling the buyer this. 

10 minutes ago, BankFodder said:

Are you an eBay trader or was it a private transaction?

 Hi BankFodder - it was a private transaction. I'd missed this point on my first post, so just edited it!

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Thank you, I agree with @Hannya that it was foolish. Never again!

 

@BankFodder, as to what I declared to Hermes, I don't recall being asked to declare the value at all (although if there was such a box, I would have entered £150, or probably the £210). The process was very similar to that described here: (https://support-ebay.packlink.com/hc/en-gb/articles/360006149780-How-do-I-purchase-the-postage-label-). That said, because I purchased the postage from Packlink via the eBay system, presumably the value of the item was known to eBay. I don't know if that information is automatically passed on to Packlink, and eventually to Hermes.

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@Hannya, thanks for this: as you predicted, eBay are sticking rigidly to their rule that if there is no tracking number confirming delivery, they will side with the buyer (even if the buyer explicitly accepted the risk). I am minded to just offer the refund, and pursue Hermes.

 

@BankFodder, I think it is time to pursue Hermes. I wrote to them yesterday, as you suggested stating simply the following: 

 

"Dear Mr XXXX,

Thank you for your email. 

You have confirmed that Hermes has lost my parcel in its network. 

I am holding Hermes responsible for the loss.

I would like compensation for the value of the item: £219.  

Please confirm that Hermes will provide this compensation, within 7 days (i.e. before 9 February 2020).

Kind regards,

XXXX"

 

I have just had a call from the CEO complaints department stating that Hermes will not consider compensating me, because I purchased the shipping from Packlink, and my contract is with Packlink. I maintained my position that I am holding Hermes responsible, and that I would proceed to a legal claim against Hermes. I also asked for Hermes to email me to confirm that it is refusing compensation, by email.

 

What would you advise that I do next? Should I send a formal letter before action, and provide 7/14 days for a response? Or is my verbal conversation (which I did record) sufficient for that purpose?

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Thank you both for your responses.

 

@Hannya, I think I have learned my lesson! 

 

@BankFodder, ditto. Apologies - I did not mean to ignore your advice. There was some uncertainty (at least in my mind) as to what the correct value of the claim should be. I put £219 on the email as I would need to pay £219 in order to replace the item that Hermes lost. That is the figure that I have quoted in all correspondence with Hermes (i.e. all chats and emails post the buyer telling me that the package had not arrived yet). That is the replacement value. If you think I am only entitled to the approx. £150 (being the amount that I sold the item for on eBay), then I am happy to state this figure in any subsequent letters / claim, with a corrective statement if needed. 

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Thank you for your detailed reply @BankFodder.

 

You make an interesting point of law, regarding the different approach to assessing loss and damage under an action in contract versus an action in negligence. The geek within me wants to explore this, before settling on a strategy. Indulging that geek for a moment (even if it is potentially academic!), I understand that:

  • an action in negligence is intended to put [me] back into your starting position as if the breach of duty had never occurred”;
  • the alleged break of duty in this case is Hermes’ “negligent handling of [my] goods”; and that
  • the purpose of an award for compensatory damages, in general, and also in negligence is to return me to the position I would be in but-for the wrongful act (which in this case, is the act of negligence / breach of duty.

If I have understood this all correctly, then it seems to me that in order to bring a successful claim for £210, I would need to establish that but-for the breach of duty, I would not have sent the package at all (i.e. I would have retained an item worth £210). Is that correct, or is my logic wrong? Testing this to the limit, if I had for some reason sold the item for £1, would I still be entitled to the “return of your item or the return of its full value”?

 

Anyway, unless you think that a claim in negligence is likely to have merit, or that I can feasibly, sensibly and cleanly hedge my bets by suing in negligence for £210 and alternatively in contract for £150 plus costs, I will follow your advice that the safest thing to do is “sue in contract for £150 or alternatively in negligence £150 plus interest plus costs of the action”.

 

And if that is the case, would you be able to point me to any existing claim forms on this website that have made a similar claim under Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act? If no such templates exist, I’d be happy to have a go and share for others’ benefit!

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Thanks @BankFodder, from reviewing the other threads, it seems the next step is to write a formal letter before action, and then prepare my claim form. Here is what I intend to send for the former. Would be grateful if you could let me know if there's anything missing or glaringly wrong!

 

I'm also planning to prepare the small claims court form in the coming days. Are you aware of any posts on here, or templates, that make reference to the same points of law / arguments relating to the right of third parties act, and / or negligence that I could adapt? I've had a search, and could only find the one case (in which the claimant unfortunately lost, given the judge's determination that the claimant had accepted the £25 cap on the courier's liability). 

 

Finally, Packlink have also finally replied to me too, asking me to submit a compensation claim form. I am wondering whether I should: (a) submit a compensation claim to them and accept the inevitable £25 payout, and risk undermining my position that Hermes is liable for the loss, or (b) ignore it, and risk being accused of failing to mitigate the loss that I consider has been caused by Hermes, and have any potential award knocked down by £25 as a result. Thoughts? 

 

Thank you in advance - again - for your help.

 

By email: [Hermes CEO complaints address with which I have been corresponding] [Does this need to be served in post, or will email suffice, given there is already an active exchange?]

 

Subject: Letter before action

 

Dear Sir / Madam,

 

I refer to my emails of 31 January 2020 and 2 February 2020, and the summary of my complaint contained therein.

 

I also refer to your email replies on 2 February 2020 and 3 February 2020, in which you

confirm that Hermes has lost my parcel in its network, and refuse to compensate me for my loss, stating that “as you had not booked the parcel directly with Hermes and booked the parcel through Packlink, you would need to submit your claim with Packlink as this is who your financial agreement is with”.

 

I do not accept your position. I continue to hold Hermes responsible for my loss. [Should I be stating why, i.e. by reference to the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act, and or an accusation of negligence in the alternative? Or is this to be reserved for the claim form? If not, is there any particular wording I should use?].

 

I am claiming compensatory damages from Hermes, of £149.02. I have calculated this amount as follows:

 

The item contained in the package has an RRP £219. I sold the item on eBay for a total consideration of £141.73. I paid £7.29 for Hermes to deliver the package. Hermes’ failure to deliver the package has caused me to suffer a loss of £141.73 + £7.29 = £149.02

 

If I do not receive a satisfactory response to this letter, by email, within 14 days, I will bring court proceedings without further notice. I refer you to the Practice Direction on pre-action conduct under the Civil Procedure Rules, and in particular to paragraphs 13-16 which set out the sanctions the court may impose if you fail to comply with the Practice Direction.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

 

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Thanks again @BankFodder. As you sugested, I have reviewed the small claims process, but before I push 'go', I want to be sure of three things: (a) whether I should be seeking compensation from Packlink (per my question in post 18); (b) the wording of my letter better action (and in particular the two questions I flagged in red font in post 18), and (c) the legal grounds of my case.

 

What do you think about (a) and (b)?

 

On (c), i.e. the legal grounds of my case, here is my understanding. Would appreciate your (any anyone else's) thoughts!

 

I understand that Hermes will refuse to compensate me fully on two grounds: first, that my contract is with Packlink, not Hermes; and second, that I chose not to purchase the optional compensation, from Packlink and in doing so, I accepted a £25 limit on compensation / liability. They have only asserted the former so far, but I expect that they will also assert the latter in due course.

 

I’m going to address these in turn.

 

On the first, I understand that your advice is that I assert that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act, as this gives me the same rights as a contracting party (which I think would by Packlink). Are you aware of any such actions being brought against Hermes (or other couriers)? Do you know what sort of defences they are likely to assert? You have already mentioned they could assert that the agreement between Packlink and Hermes specifically excludes third parties from bringing an action against Hermes. To me, this seems quite likely, especially if the agreement between them was drawn up by a competent lawyer. I assume that the agreement is private, and so I have no way of knowing whether I am on solid legal ground, or not. Is that correct? Can I request the contract somehow, either through some sort of subject access request, or by mentioning it in my letter before action, and / or as part of any available disclosure in a small claims court case?

 

On the second, I understand that your advice is that the requirement to purchase compensation is an ‘unfair term’ under the Consumer Rights Act (2015). Having reviewed that legislation, it seems I need to argue that the requirement to purchase compensation causes a significant imbalance in the parties’ rights and obligations under the contract, to the detriment of the myself. It seems to me that I am on very solid grounding here – unless you know of any likely defences that I have missed? 

 

  • According to the CMA’s guidance on unfair terms: “If wording could be used to reduce or remove consumers’ ability to seek redress to which they would otherwise be legally entitled, it is likely to be considered unfair, even if that was not the intention.” (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/450410/Unfair_Terms_Explained.pdf)
  • The CMA’s more detailed guidance states that: “5.6.1 If a contract is to be fully and equally binding on both trader and consumer, each party should be entitled to full compensation where the other fails to honour its obligations. Clauses which limit the trader’s liability are open to the same objections as those which exclude it altogether. See paragraphs 5.2.1 to 5.2.10 regarding disclaimers generally. 5.6.2 Use of a term restricting liability for breach of consumers’ rights under Part 1 of the Act is very likely89 to be blacklisted as well as unfair (see above, paragraph 5.2.4), and as such its use may give rise to enforcement action as a misleading commercial practice (see part 1 ‘other legislation’ on the CPRs) in the same way as terms that exclude liability in full.” (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/450440/Unfair_Terms_Main_Guidance.pdf)

 

Finally, how do I show that Hermes has failed to honour its obligations (or been negligent), when I don't have access to the Packlink/Hermes conract in which the relevant obligations are likely set out?

Edited by david_v_goliath
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Thanks

- I had not formalised the claim with Packlink, as I understood that they would simply pay max £25, and take ages to do it, and that I'd end up having to go to Hermes anyway.

 

I have just today filed the "Insurance Claim Form" with Packlink.

They say it could take up to 90 days for a resolution.

 

I have sent them an email asking for a response within 14 days (which I think is reasonable).

If they do not fully compensate me within 14 days, I intend to send a letter before action to Hermes, asking for compensation for the balance (i.e. the total amount, less anything that Packlink have provided by then).

 

Will keep this thread updated. 

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A quick update: as expected, Packlink have sent me a default settlement letter, paying £25 compensation only, and refunding my shipping fee. They state in this letter that:

 

"The compensation claim for loss of the shipment XXX has been accepted. Please remember that shipment was covered only with standard compensation. No enhanced compensation was purchased with the postage label....With this settlement letter, all future legal obligations against us are satisfied."

 

I have therefore sent a letter before action to Hermes, giving them 14 days to pay the balance of compensation. 

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@BankFodder, I have registered with MCOL, and am preparing my claim form.

I have ticked the 'will send detailed particulars of claim' option, and the 'I'm claiming interest at the statutory 8% rate' box.

 

In the brief, POC box, I am stating the following:

 

1.       On 23 Jan, I sent a package using the Hermes delivery service.

2.       On 2 Feb, Hermes confirmed that “the parcel is lost in our network”, but refused to compensate me, “as your parcel was booked through Packlink”.

3.       On 9 Feb, I issued a claim for compensation to Packlink. I received £32.29.

4.       On 11 Feb, I issued a letter before action to Hermes, requesting compensation for the balance of my loss.

5.       On 12 Feb, Hermes again denied any compensation.

 

This just about fits! I have few questions:

 

a) Should I be making reference to the grounds of my case here,  i.e. by reference to the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act, and or an accusation of negligence in the alternative, or should I just detail that in the detailed particualrs of claim

 

b) Disclosure. How can I get access to the contract between Packlink and Hermes, to ensure that there is no third party exclusion clause?

 

c) Have I missed anything else (I've followed your guide on this forum, and also the user guide on MCOL)

 

 

 

 

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Thank you @BankFodder for that suggested wording, and @dx100uk for confirming.  I had forgotten about the possibility of serving a witness statement. Presumably I will get an option to do that if and when Hermes files its defence, and the Court orders standard disclosure?

 

The only other reason I can think of to file detailed particulars of claim is explain how I have quantified my claim - as attached (as the calculation is not otherwise obvious).

 

Should this go in the WS too?

 

 

Calculation of loss.PNG

Edited by david_v_goliath
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  • 2 weeks later...

Served on 16 Feb.

 

On reviewing the MCOL website today for an updated, I noticed that 1) Hermes has aknowledged the claim, but not yet filed a defence, and 2) that I there was a glitch / error on the form. Essentially, it looks like I had accidentally left the "I will send detailed particulars of claim" box ticke (I thought I had unticked it), with the result that the claim section has been truncated, and some extra text has automatcially been added - in red below):

 

"...Claimant seeks £XXX, plus
I will provide the defendant with separate
detailed particulars within 14 days after
service of the claim form.

The claimant claims interest under section 69
of the County Courts Act 1984 at the rate of..."

 

This is obviously not ideal. Is it better to try to amend the claim somehow, or to just submit a brief POC that a) clarifies that I am seeking £XXX plus costs (which was automatically truncated), and b) sets out my calculation of the £XXX?

 

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  • 4 weeks later...

Hi @BankFodder - I hope you are keeping well!

 

I have finally received a response from Hermes to my claim. It is a full defence. Hermes admits that it has lost my parcel, puts me to strict proof as to the value of the claim, but denies that it is liable to pay damages claimed for break of contract and/ or negligence. It asserts that there is no contract between Claimant and Defendant, and that Claimant enterted into a contract with Packlink, which was made very clear during the order process, and that Claimant should desist with this claim and contact Packlink. Hermes does not ever aknowledge that I rely on the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999.

 

I am hoping for a mediation (although I have not yet been contacted). If not, I suppose I will receive a directions questionaire next, and will need to prepare for a hearing.

 

Would it be helpful for me to upload the defence (or an anonyised version of it) here?

 

Also, in one of the FAQs on this website, you suggest that I could write to the court and suggest some directions, if, for instance, I feel that the defendant has been withholding evidence. Do you think Hermes ignoring my claim in relation to the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act warrants requesting disclose of the contract between Hermes and Packlink - with the purpose of verifying that there is no explicit exclusion that would warrant this act inapplicable? 

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@dx100uk - attached now. I have copied the wording into a new document, anonymised it, and added a couple of notes of my own (all highlighted yellow) including for ease of reference to relevant sentences in my claim. I'd welcome your and BankFodder's thoughts and advice!

 

@BankFodder - they refer to being a subcontractor to Packlink, at paragraph 4. CPR 31.14 seems to relate to "Documents referred to in statements of case etc....(1) A party may inspect a document mentioned in...(a) a statement of case". I wonder whether Hermes' wording is sufficient to make a request? And your latter two points make perfect sense to me! 

 

 

Hermes' defence - anonymised.pdf

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Thank you for your thoughts and advice! I will do as you suggested.

 

A have a couple of questions on timing and format.

 

On timings:

 

I am still waiting for a mediator to contact me, and to receive the the directions questionnaire. Should I wait on either / both of these before proceeding with the CPR31.14 request? The status of the claim is as below. This suggests to me that the DQ has only been sent to Hermes, and not to me, so I don't know if I'll ever receive it. It doesn't seem to be available on the MCOL website.

  • A bar was put in place for Hermes Parcelnet Limited on 20/03/2020
  • Hermes Parcelnet Limited filed a defence on 20/03/2020 at 14:05:15
  • DQ sent to Hermes Parcelnet Limited on 23/03/2020

On format:

 

Is there a prescribed form, or wording for the CPR31.14 request? Or do I just send a letter to the Court and Hermes, requesting disclosure of Hermes/PackLink contract under CPR 31.14, and make reference to this contract being relied upon in Hermes' defence? 

 

Sorry for what may be stupid questions - but I can't fine answers to these in the MCOl guide, or in your (generall very helpful) FAQ on this website!

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Thanks Andy. I have called MCOL, and their recorded message suggests that they are closed indefintely. I also emailed, and got an automatic response stating "Following continued advice from the Government, the County Court Business Centre is temporarily closed due to the Covid-19 outbreak". I guess my DQ has been delayed because of this...will wait and see, as it seems there is not much more that I can do at this point! 

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Thanks both. I received the DQ and have been advised to complete by 9 April and serve on defendant. So I will be sending it by email today - agreeing for referral to the small claims mediation service, and requesting a hearing venue near to my home (although I imagine all hearings will be held remotely for the foreseeable future anyway). 

 

I also managed to speak to MCOL on the phone. They didn't seem to know how I could make a request for the court to order the Defendant to disclose documents. They suggested I might file an N265 (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/form-n265-list-of-documents-standard-disclosure) or N244 (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/form-n244-application-notice) form. Neither of these seem appropriate to me. 

 

Can I just email the Defendant directly to ask for disclosure of the Hermes / PackLink contract? Or email the Court?

 

I think it might be helpful to have this document in advance of any mediation or hearing (or at the very least, a document showing that I have requested the contract, and that the Defendant has refused to disclose it)!

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Thank you Andy - that's helpful.

 

While I did not refer to the Hermes-Packlink contract, Hermes' defence does, and it does so quite explicitly: "Defendant also works as a subcontractor to provide delivery services to customers of PACKLINK Shipping S.L (“Packlink”) who are a company registered in, Spain with the number CIF B83357863 whose registered address is Calle Amaltea, 9 28045 Madrid pursuant to a pre-existing commercial agreement to carry out delivery services". So I think this means that Hermes should disclose this "pre-existing commercial agreement" in Standard Disclosure. 

 

It sounds like your advice is to wait for the process, and see if Hermes discloses the contract. I know you said disclosure happens after allocation - but do you know if there is typically a deadline on that disclosure? 

 

Essentially, I am wondering whether I will have enough time to review the contract (or to request its disclosure and inspection, if Hermes does not volunteer it as it should), before writing my witness statement. 

 

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Thanks Andy. Lower down in that link, it also suggests that:

  • I have a right to inspect the document since it is referred to in Hermes' defence (which I think fall sunder 31.14 (1) (a)),
  • that I must provide Hermes with written notice of my wish to inspect it, and
  • that Hermes will have 7 days to provide it. 

So I will serve notice under 31.14 and 31.15 to Hermes by email, and file a certificate of service with the Court.  I don't think I need to wait allocation etc. to make the request under these rules

 

Documents referred to in statements of case etc.

31.14

(1) A party may inspect a document mentioned in –

(a) a statement of case;

(b) a witness statement;

(c) a witness summary; or

(d) an affidavit(GL).

(e) Revoked.

(2) Subject to rule 35.10(4), a party may apply for an order for inspection of any document mentioned in an expert's report which has not already been disclosed in the proceedings.

(Rule 35.10(4) makes provision in relation to instructions referred to in an expert’s report)

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Inspection and copying of documents

31.15  Where a party has a right to inspect a document–

(a) that party must give the party who disclosed the document written notice of his wish to inspect it;

(b) the party who disclosed the document must permit inspection not more than 7 days after the date on which he received the notice; and

(c) that party may request a copy of the document and, if he also undertakes to pay reasonable copying costs, the party who disclosed the document must supply him with a copy not more than 7 days after the date on which he received the request.

(Rule 31.3 and 31.14 deal with the right of a party to inspect a document)

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  • 5 months later...

I wanted to provide an update to this chain. I have reached a settlement with Hermes.

 

For the benefit of anyone else going through this process, some notes:

 

The formal mediation process was delayed (I guess, due to Covid). I wrote directly to the relevant person in Hermes' legal department (firstname.lastname@hermes-europe.co.uk - you will get the names in your claim form, for anyone else going through this process)

 

I played hard ball - I maintained my position in my claim form, I did not give Hermes' (in my view, entirely without merit) arguments any attention, and I maintained the fact that unless Hermes' settle for the full amount claimed, I would pursue this to Court.

 

I also insisted on production of the contract between Hermes and Packlink, which was referred to multiple times in Hermes' defence. My understanding is that the wording in this contract - if carefully enough worded - might afford Hermes some protection against claims under the Right of Third Parties act. I never got sight of the contract, so I don't know. Read what you will into Hermes' refusal to provide the contract - either it is commercially sensitive (although it could be redacted to get around this), or the smoking gun sits within.

 

Hermes initially offered to pay only the amount of my claim, less costs. I insisted on the amount plus costs. They paid up.

 

Thank you to the moderators on this thread that provided me with candid advice along the way. It was very helpful, and I hope it helps anyone else in this position.

 

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