PCN received - unclear "no stopping" times - ** CANCELLED BY COUNCIL **

[Michael Browne]

1 hour ago, Jamberson said:

 

The sign must state the hours of no parking, and must be clear. So, the yellow sign says "No stopping 10 - 5am". Logically, that can't be 10am - 5am. So it must be 10pm - 5am. And then logically, it follows on, that you can stop to load after 5am, until 10am. If it means something other than that, it isn't clear.

On that basis, there is no restriction at all between 10am and 10pm, which on a taxi/loading bay is highly unlikely.

[Michael Browne]

Interesting that in their reply the council admit the sign says 10-5am and then go on to say that this means 10am-5am.  If that's the case, why doesn't the sign make that clear.

 

I think this gives you a fair bit of wriggle room at adjudication, that the sign is wide open to mis-interpretation and the council have as good as admitted that.

 

The sign should have said 'No stopping 10am-midnight and midnight -5am except taxis'

 

 

[Michael Browne]

 

Councils have a duty to ensure that the motorist is fully informed of the relevant traffic restrictions. The signs must operate in such a way as to provide reasonable information for the motorist concerning what is required in order to park lawfully, rather than the motorist having to guess.

[Michael Browne]

Zettai,

If you decide to take this further, rather than pay the discount, wait for the Notice to Owner..

 

Then post up your appeal here before submitting.

 

Bear in mind that you would almost certainly have to go to adjudication and although I think you have a good chance,  nothing's guaranteed and it's your money you're risking, not mine.

 

 

[Michael Browne]

2 hours ago, Zettai Baka said:

 

I've never been to court or an adjudication, so in my head I'm thinking judges with wigs, a jury and a prosecution like in the movies, but I'm guessing it won't be that dramatic...?

No,  your appeal would be heard by the Traffic Penalty Tribunal either on-line or as a telephone hearing

https://www.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/how-your-appeal-will-be-decided/

 

https://www.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/what-to-expect-at-a-hearing/

[Michael Browne]

That complicates matters.  Did you sign any form of courtesy car agreement?

 

As driver you cannot make representations to the NtO, only the registered keeper can do that.

 

The garage has to transfer liability to you by filling in the appropiate sction on the NtO and return it to the council, who will then issue an NtO in your name.

 

It would be best if you speak to the manager and explain, because otherwise the garage may well just pay the full penalty and bill you together with an admin charge. If that happens any right to appael is lost

Edited July 24, 2019 by Michael Browne

[Michael Browne]

Yes, on the NtO there is a tick box which says: 
 

Quote

 

We  are a hire and the vehicle in question was at the material time hired from the firm under a hiring agreement; and the person hiring it had signed a statement acknowledging liability in respect of any pnalty charge  involving the vehicle during the period of the hiring agreement.

You must include a statement of the name and address of the person to whom the vehicle was hired at the material time. Please also supply a copy of the hire agreement and the hirer's statement acknowledging their liability

 

 

The council is unlikely to send the NtO before the middle of August, so I would call the garage every 10 days after that   or so to make sure they deal with it

Edited July 24, 2019 by Michael Browne

[Michael Browne]

1 hour ago, Jamberson said:

Adjudication hearings aren't scary. You will sit at a table with someone from the council, and the adjudicator (who isn't a judge - he or she will just be in business dress) will ask questions to understand the issue and then decide who they think is correct. It could be a bit of fun if you look at it that way. Nothing to be intimidated by - worst possible outcome, you have to pay the PCN. The council don't like the hearings as they can affect many other PCNs they are processing (eg, all the ones they are continuing to issue right at that spot) and they will be more obedient and deferential than you need to be!

 

 

This is Oldham so the appeal will be at TPT and most likely be on-line/postal or a telephone hearing, rather than a personal hearing.

Edited July 24, 2019 by Michael Browne