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    • Update: This afternoon I got a letter from Drydens (on behalf of their client Erudio) that says: Please find enclosed, by way of service, a copy of Notice of Discontinuance sent to the Court under cover of our letter of today's date. The enclosed Notice of Discontinuance has - for all of this claim - ticked. I'm clueless about legal stuff, but I assume that means they have withdrawn their Claim?  Should I celebrate? During my hearing, when adjourning the court date, the Judge ordered that no more evidence is to be handed in by either party. I assume that they did not think they would win, therefore filed for Discontinuance.  I'm just confused how this is in their favour as they will lose the money they spent so far.  What I'm also unclear about is - does this mean that they can submit another Claim with different evidence? Or once they Discontinued they can't sue me again for the same reason?  Let's see what their next move is. Can't thank you enough for all your help!  
    • Couldn't get back to you this afternoon I will tidy it up in the morning ready for the deadline Andy  
    • @jk2054 Received the order of judgement today and Evri have also paid. @BankFodder and JK - I've recently sold an item on Ebay and this time, I did not use Packlink or Evri to send the item to the recipient (used Royal Mail and item successfully delivered). However, I took screenshots of the process to go through Packlink to book a delivery service such as Evri, as i thought it would be useful for you and other members of this forum to see how someone would choose a delivery service through Packlink, and the information that's available about the parcel value, delivery service, compensation etc.  It may also be helpful in future WS / Bundles as an example to show that Packlink is an intermediary / comparison service which provides users with a list of services of delivery companies and the user selects the option that best meets their needs. The screenshots are in the attached pdf. You'll note that A lot of the information is pre-populated such as the order value (which cannot be changed), recipient's address etc. and there is a list of different couriers / delivery services, the compensation they offer, and the price of using 1 of the couriers/delivery services. Towards the end, there is an option to select full compensation coverage from Packlink, and proof of delivery, and the costs for each of these services. In each of the screenshots, there is a prominent message that by clicking "purchase postage label", the user is acknowledging and accept that their purchase will be subject to Packlink terms and conditions - these are the Terms and Conditions that Evri provided in their defence witness statement in my case, and that I used to explain to the judge that under these T&Cs, there is a contract with the delivery company. Delivery service selection on Packlink (redacted).pdf
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    • Hello,

      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

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    • Housing Association property flooding. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/438641-housing-association-property-flooding/&do=findComment&comment=5124299
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    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

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      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
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      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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Evaded fares on the bus


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Apologies if this post comes off blunt, I just want to lay out the main elements. I've been caused a lot of stress by this, I'm very worried that this'll damage my job prospects, and I was stupid not to have paid that bus fare. I'm a student on my gap year, and will be going to uni next year. I'm direly low on money, and that's part of the reason I evaded the fare. Sorry to all the hard working paying customers of TfL for that

 

First off, about me, 18yo, just left school (ie had free bus travel up until two weeks ago), no criminal convictions, never in trouble with the police, etc. Also I know what I did was wrong, and I really really won't be doing that again ever.

 

Recently I evaded a fare (purposefully). I'd used my partner's Oyster Card, with student rate (ie free bus travel), and this was the first time I'd borrowed somebody's Oyster Card in my life, I'd done it so I could go home to get my work uniform and then return to hers.

 

I took two buses home, couldn't find any money at all and my mum wasn't in, and so I took two buses back, and of course as always in life on the last bus I got caught, so I'm guessing that 4 journeys in total exacerbates things. I originally lied about my address, but quickly admitted to a ticket inspector I'd done this, he changed it, offered me a £40 fine (which I couldn't pay, cause I had no money, hence using my girlfriend's Oyster) and sent me on my way after confiscating my girlfriend's Oyster card.

 

I received a letter from TfL today saying that they would like to accept my comments within 10 days, and then the line that worried me the most - "You do not have to say anything, but etc etc". I've only not had free travel for 2 weeks, so I couldn't have abused the system repeatedly, no past convictions, nothing apart from this one mishap.

 

Does that mean they're going to take me to court? If so, what are they likely to charge me with, and will it be a permanent criminal record? What are my options, and how likely is it they'll have me up? I haven't stolen the card, so I know that works for me and against my girlfriend, who admitted that it was hers when the police found it.

 

Thanks for all advice, and again I know it was wrong, and I won't be doing that again, so moral advice isn't needed!

 

Also, 23 people viewing and no replies? Please help, need this advice as soon as I can!

Edited by nicktflll
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I was in the exact same situation. Luckily for me the Inspector didn't take my address but confiscated my Mothers oyster card and forced me to pay for the bus fair.

 

 

Did they send a letter to your girlfriend or are they not going to charge her for giving away her oyster card?

 

Your best bet would be to send a grovelling letter of apology, explaining your situation, how this was your first time and how your future career prospects would be damaged by a criminal record. You will probably get away with just a fine, considering its your first time.

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Hello and welcome to CAG. I'm sorry you didn't get immediate replies, but it was Saturday night after all. Also, as this is a voluntary website, weekends can be quiet here.

 

I expect the transport guys will be along later with more advice for you. My understanding is that TfL are asking for your version of events. I think expressing regret and promising never to do it again is the way to go, and be truthful.

 

Depending on what they think of your letter, you may need more advice from the guys here. In any case, it would be good if you come back an tell us what happens, as this will help future caggers with the same problem.

 

My best, HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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Sorry for being so demanding, this situation's had me losing sleep, but thank you all so much so far! I've written a grovelling and truthful brown-nose letter because I truthfully do not wanna go through all this, £xxx AND a criminal record for a bus fare isn't really something I wanna risk, not to mention it's a bit unfair to those who've paid everyday, I know how much of a drain it is myself even just over the last few weeks, and if everybody else has to pay I should too.

 

The letter I wrote I won't c&p onto here because that could be a rather stupid thing to do considering this is an open legal case, but it follows this structure, with a bit more meat and enough sorry's to make me sick of the word:

 

(tl;dr - apology, explain how good I've always been, was going work, no money, used gf's oyster, never do it again, happy to pay all fees, criminal record will hurt my job & future jobs, understand how severe it is now, never do it again)

 

> Apologetic start, explaining my current situation as an A-grade student whose just left full-time education and is searching for full-time work for my gap year, with no criminal convictions ever and no sort of history of any transport offences ever;

> Explained my situation and that I need it to get to work, so I felt I had no option, and it was very stupid judgement on my behalf;

> That this was the first time I did this, that reinforced by the fact I had free travel up to 30th Sep '12, and also that I have another Oyster card which has been frequently used;

> Told them that I had no access to money that day as my mum was working herself, and that I was being paid the next day;

> Explained how I will not ever consider doing this with any form of transport ever again, and that it was an incredibly stupid thing to do considering the consequences, which I was not aware would be so serious;

> Made it very clear that I understand that I will, and will happily, need to pay any fines, administrative costs and compensation for the bus fare I evaded that day;

> Also that the punishment of a fine, as well as being banned from future concessionary bus passes during my time at uni that will amount to thousands more spent, is a punishment I would consider very fair, and that a criminal record would severely damage my future prospects for a job, and how truly I do not want to damage my current career or future jobs because of incredibly poor judgement on that day;

> Reassurance I understand that the consequences of doing this again would inevitably land me in much more trouble than the first time, and how stressful this experience has been has made me very aware of how severe a crime it is to evade a bus fare and I will certainly not consider attempting to evade a fare ever again. (

 

No lies in that letter, it is as honest as I can be, but is there any improvements anybody could suggest? It seems they are persecuting me for the one fare only, and I would like to keep it that way, so I am avoiding mentioning the number of times I have evaded the fare, but they can be sure this has taught me my lesson either way.

 

Hopefully they'll slap me on the wrist and take my money! Waiting nervously for comments :!:

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TfL Prosecution Dept aren't interested in money to be frank. People have offered £500 to them and they still prosecute, even though the fine is smaller.

 

Frankly, I don't rate your chances of avoiding court. The only blessing in your case is that a Freedom Pass is not involved.

 

Your letter is fine, just make sure you are still prepared to deal with the consequences of them prosecuting you, if they decide to do so.

 

If they do decide to proceed, they will prosecute under Section 7(1)(b) of The Public Service Vehicles (Conduct of Drivers, Inspectors, Conductors and Passengers) Regulations 1990.

 

No passenger on a vehicle being used for the carriage of passengers at separate fares shall use any ticket which has been issued for use by another person on terms that it is not transferable...

 

If convicted, probably around £250 fine, £100 costs, £25 surcharge. A criminal record would be generated, but would only appear on an "enhanced" disclosure, (required for lawyers, accountants, bankers, police, doctors, nurses, teachers, carers, army, working with kids or the elderly etc).

Edited by firstclassx
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TfL Prosecution Dept aren't interested in money to be frank. People have offered £500 to them and they still prosecute, even though the fine is smaller.

 

Frankly, I don't rate your chances of avoiding court. The only blessing in your case is that a Freedom Pass is not involved.

 

Your letter is fine, just make sure you are still prepared to deal with the consequences of them prosecuting you, if they decide to do so.

 

If they do decide to proceed, they will prosecute under Section 7(1)(b) of The Public Service Vehicles (Conduct of Drivers, Inspectors, Conductors and Passengers) Regulations 1990.

 

 

 

If convicted, probably around £250 fine, £100 costs, £25 surcharge. A criminal record would be generated, but would only appear on an "enhanced" disclosure, (required for lawyers, accountants, bankers, police, doctors, nurses, teachers, carers, army, working with kids or the elderly etc).

 

Thank you for your response, not delighted with that but you live and learn, at least it's not a serious criminal record that I'd have to announce more often than not. I've spoken to a criminal lawyer and she said my chances of prosecution are low due to my age and my circumstances living in a lower class family (widow, debts, low income) as well as not earning much myself. She's also dealt with similar cases.

 

May I also ask why you think i'll probably going to court? From experience, knowledge, sector of work or anything, just so I can weigh up what I've been told

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Thank you for your response, not delighted with that but you live and learn, at least it's not a serious criminal record that I'd have to announce more often than not. I've spoken to a criminal lawyer and she said my chances of prosecution are low due to my age and my circumstances living in a lower class family (widow, debts, low income) as well as not earning much myself. She's also dealt with similar cases.

 

May I also ask why you think i'll probably going to court? From experience, knowledge, sector of work or anything, just so I can weigh up what I've been told

 

I am a Prosecutor for a Train Operating Company, dealing with many similar cases each day.

 

It is unfortunate that most criminal (or indeed civil) lawyers understand legislation surrounding public transport. More often than not they make things worse through their lack of knowledge.

 

Your circumstances are quite irrelevant to the matter of prosecution. Perhaps if you were travelling to see a sick relative with no money, and could provide evidence of that, then I may view it as an act of desperation. Perhaps if you had just been mugged and needed to get home, I could see merit in leaving you be. Had you of being suffering a mental deficiency or defect, I would be understanding. Yet:-

 

From a prosecutor's point of view, it is unfortunate that you had an element of premeditation in your offence, you consciously set out knowing you would be defrauding a company and would be evading your fare(s). You took the concession pass from your partner, who may well have needed it herself, knowing that it did not belong to you, and that you should not be using it. In addition, for someone who has just completed further education studies, it is apparent that you are somebody who would know the difference between right and wrong. You would have, at least for a minute or two, probably subconsciously, have weighed up the pros and cons of your actions, and calculated the risk.

 

Additionally, these concessionary passes are funded through taxpayer and public transport users money. You have caused the taxpayer to suffer a loss. It may not be a significant amount, but there has to be a deterrent and precedent set. Fare evaders put the future of these concessions at risk, meaning people who really need them may not be able to access them in the future.

 

Although proceedings should not be brought to "teach somebody a lesson", I am mindful that had you not have been stopped by an Inspector, on the balance of probability, you would have continued to take advantage of this concessionary ticket/pass - at least until such time as you were earning a good wage. I am thinking to myself, I wonder whether he has done this before, and got away with it.

 

Reading your posts, I do not feel any real sense of true remorse. You come across as someone who is worried about their future as a result of a prosecution, and is sorry they got caught. You are prepared to pay a "fine" to TfL, suggesting you do (and did) have money available.

 

For those reasons, I would now be in favour of prosecution. I now consider the consequences of doing so.

 

If convicted, you would receive a criminal record, which may affect your future adversely. However, such record would only apply to a very specific set of jobs, and would not be declared after a few years. On reflection, the criminal record is unlikely to be particularly damaging to your future career prospects. Ultimately it is a minor conviction, a misdemeanor, which most employers will not particularly fuss over.

 

If convicted, the experience of being prosecuted is likely to be a sobering one and may allow you to learn that we must carefully consider the consequences of our actions, however small. The financial consequences of a conviction may be paid within a few weeks, but the hearing itself will stay in your mind, with you forever.

 

Looking at the financial aspect in detail, if convicted, I would know that a court would consider your financial circumstances and sentence you accordingly, making special arrangements for repayment, if necessary. If I simply accept an out of court settlement, how do I know you are able to pay your rent or eat properly if I take your money? From what you say, your finances are fairly modest. Only a court can properly review your circumstances, whilst ensuring your well-being.

 

With the above in mind, I would authorise prosecution.

 

I hope this helps you get a better understanding of how a prosecutor may think. I've probably missed a few things out there, but it's generally how I work.

 

 

 

NB: Glad I've got AL this week, 4am, with a Morgans replying to posts :D Now to get rid of my flu...

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Having had thirty + years in prosecuting such matters, I tend to look at the wider aspects of what prosecution is designed to achieve. I disagree with firstclassx's explanation of the purpose of prosecution.

 

The whole purpose of prosecution actually is 'to teach someone a lesson'. Prosecution is meant to be a part of the re-education process when & where other remedies may not be appropriate, or have already failed.

 

I believe that what firstclassx is referring to is the fact that there are very strict guidelines that make clear that a prosecution is not to be brought unless it is justified.

 

The transport providers can instigate a prosecution each and every time that someone breaks the rules if they wish to do so and because it seems that prosecution under some minor legislation is being over-used by some TOCs, there is currently a move to curb these powers by some influential lobbying groups. It is very important for prosecutors to ensure that the legislation remains available, but also to recognise that Courts should not be rammed full of undeserving cases.

 

As prosecutors we are not to consider ourselves judge & jury. Our role is to place the details of any allegation before a Court where the Magistrates will use the combination of their powers & discretion within the framework of legal guidelines to determine what, if any punishment is appropriate.

 

Where more serious matters are concerned, prosecution can be an inevitable consequence of the offenders' action, but we have to put some of these things into perspective. Your offence is not life-threatening.

 

If your letter is well worded and does come across to the person reading it as genuine, then you may be able to avoid a Court appearance. The summary that you produced in your post above certainly does not give that impression, it is just a list of bullet points and does not create any sense of remorse or any other emotion.

 

If you have no previous history of warnings, or penalties for similar fares irregularities you should not give up hope that you might be able to achieve a settlement, but you need to revise the way your mitigation is presented.

 

If the worst comes to it and you have to face a Court appearance, there is every chance that if you come over as genuinely remoseful in front of the Magistrates you may get away with a light penalty, or even a 'slap on the wrist'. Good legal advice might help, though the quality of paid-for representation can be appalling at times. I suggest you give some very real thought to improving your mitigation, I can see one particular avenue that might help you depending on what actually happened when you were reported, but I'll leave you to decide how best to present your case.

 

One thing that was abundantly clear to me was the fact that the tone of your original post wasn't helpful and if that is replicated in your correspondence, I doubt that you'll succeed. There may have been 23 viewers to the thread, but no respondents. How did you know that these viewers were not all seeking help just like you?

Edited by Old-CodJA
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Having had thirty + years in prosecuting such matters, I tend to look at the wider aspects of what prosecution is designed to achieve. I disagree with firstclassx's explanation of the purpose of prosecution.

 

The whole purpose of prosecution actually is 'to teach someone a lesson'. Prosecution is meant to be a part of the re-education process when & where other remedies may not be appropriate, or have already failed.

 

I believe that what firstclassx is referring to is the fact that there are very strict guidelines that make clear that a prosecution is not to be brought unless it is justified.

 

The transport providers can instigate a prosecution each and every time that someone breaks the rules if they wish to do so and because it seems that prosecution under some minor legislation is being over-used by some TOCs, there is currently a move to curb these powers by some influential lobbying groups. It is very important for prosecutors to ensure that the legislation remains available, but also to recognise that Courts should not be rammed full of undeserving cases.

 

As prosecutors we are not to consider ourselves judge & jury. Our role is to place the details of any allegation before a Court where the Magistrates will use the combination of their powers & discretion within the framework of legal guidelines to determine what, if any punishment is appropriate.

 

Where more serious matters are concerned, prosecution can be an inevitable consequence of the offenders' action, but we have to put some of these things into perspective. Your offence is not life-threatening.

 

If your letter is well worded and does come across to the person reading it as genuine, then you may be able to avoid a Court appearance. The summary that you produced in your post above certainly does not give that impression, it is just a list of bullet points and does not create any sense of remorse or any other emotion.

 

If you have no previous history of warnings, or penalties for similar fares irregularities you should not give up hope that you might be able to achieve a settlement, but you need to revise the way your mitigation is presented.

 

If the worst comes to it and you have to face a Court appearance, there is every chance that if you come over as genuinely remoseful in front of the Magistrates you may get away with a light penalty, or even a 'slap on the wrist'. Good legal advice might help, though the quality of paid-for representation can be appalling at times. I suggest you give some very real thought to improving your mitigation, I can see one particular avenue that might help you depending on what actually happened when you were reported, but I'll leave you to decide how best to present your case.

 

One thing that was abundantly clear to me was the fact that the tone of your original post wasn't helpful and if that is replicated in your correspondence, I doubt that you'll succeed. There may have been 23 viewers to the thread, but no respondents. How did you know that these viewers were not all seeking help just like you?

 

I know that my first post wasn't very helpful because I've been rushing about these last few days, and I've had to write everything on here very quickly and perhaps a bit too snappily, sorry about that, and that's usually not the tone I come off as (as in rushed or fast paced). I made it very apparent in my letter I was remorseful, because I genuinely am, and very true for saying that, I took it back because I realised shortly afterwards I was just being pushy and a poor member of the forum, the whole fluster made me a little rude, and I'm sorry.

 

Thank you for a more positive light on the matter, I took the time to handwrite them a letter, that whilst containing all those points, did so in a very flowing way. I apologised sincerely many times, and made it very clear I realised just how serious prosecution was, and how much it could affect my future career choices of being a teacher, so I conveyed that as best I could through being kind and apologetic, and I'm sorry the way I've posted has made me sound otherwise.

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