Cap1 & CCA return

[humbleman]

sorry to intrude, would appreciate some help on my thread its to do with a hire agreement regulated by CCA 1974, Thanks

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legalities/62237-personal-guarantee-ltd-co.html#post526060

[humbleman]

Hi

Dont want to hijack this thread but just need a pointer.

 

Last week sent a CCA request to MG, this morning received a letter stating

 

I confirm receipt of £1.........., as requested please find enclosed a certified copy of your application form and copies of T&C that we would have provided you with at the inception of your account.

 

Then goes onto.. if you are not happy blah blah and ICO contact etc.

 

But there was nothing enclosed with the letter and see how they have worded the bit about the T&C.

 

Any comments how one would respond to this.

[humbleman]

Does it say application form or agreement?

 

it says application form

[humbleman]

In general where a valid request has been made to a creditor under Section 77,78 of the Act and the creditor has failed, within the prescribed 12 day period, to supply the requisite information then the creditor is not able to take steps to enforce the debt with or without a court order. The commission of (They commit) an offence, should the failure to supply the documents continue for a month, does not affect the long term enforceability of an agreement as far as the Act is concerned. Once the creditor does comply with the request, whether beyond the prescribed period or not, he will be able to enforce the agreement again.

 

Peter

 

they might aswell say that the creditor cannot enforce an agreement without providing the same. I really dont know how the 12 days and 30 days make any difference. even if they commit an offence who's going to prosecute them.

[humbleman]

You have to accept the fact that the personnel at ICO, TS, the Ombudsman, have not had to deal with such complains or issues, in the past. Therefore their training is limited to writing standard letter/templates etc. Now inorder for them to deal with these complex issues they need to a higher level of training. For example in the past TS used to mainly deal with compalint about rogue traders, trades description etc, but when it come to finance, white collar etc, thats a different ball game altogether.

[humbleman]

hi

Recently sent a CCA req. to HFC, last day today got a letter stating

 

sorry for the delay, as req. pleae find enclosed copy of legal agreement for this account. We note that the copy is not too clear, since we had to obtain this form our Archives as a/c opened in 1998.

 

We also return your cheque for £1 as there is no charge for this service.

 

There was a 1 page copy with this letter apart from my writing (like name address employer tel. no. etc)and signatures and dates, 95% of the pre-printed stuff is illegible. No T&C, no interest rates. at the top of this paper I can just about make out credit agreement regulated by cca 1974 but half of it is missing.

 

Any comments whether this is acceptable.

[humbleman]

But if they cannot show terms contained in a document where you gave your express permission to process your data, surely thats enough?

 

At the moment all we could do is debate amongst ourselves and explore various scenerios. But unless someone is brave enough to drag one of these companies in front of the Judge and test it, its all academic. With respect to some post taking the stance one way or the other I personally don't think there is a clear cut answer to this as yet, unless of course someone knows otherwise.

[humbleman]

Battleaxe

 

hats off to you for even been able to get a reply to your letters from these 2 companies.

 

I have infact saved my mailer they have sent with replacement credit cards and see if I can dig them out and check the contents.

 

One way of catching these companies out is, ask them to send you a replacement card since your card is misplaced and see what you get with it.

[humbleman]

Any chance of scanning one of these and emailing it to me please ?

 

AS soon as i have located, will fax it to you

[humbleman]

Hi

Dont want to hijack this thread but just need a pointer.

 

Last week sent a CCA request to MG, this morning received a letter stating

 

I confirm receipt of £1.........., as requested please find enclosed a certified copy of your application form and copies of T&C that we would have provided you with at the inception of your account.

 

Then goes onto.. if you are not happy blah blah and ICO contact etc.

 

But there was nothing enclosed with the letter and see how they have worded the bit about the T&C.

 

Any comments how one would respond to this.

 

After the post above I sent them a letter stating there was no agreement with the letter, today received a sorry letter and

 

Please find enclosed a copy of your signed credit agreement and a copy of T&C issued at the time your account was opened. The template supplied to you contains the required information as it was sent out to you. This information is all on file and can be used to evidence that we have acted fairly and correctly and in accordance with the terms of the Act.

 

First of all I never told them that they have acted unfairly and note that in their first letter they refer to a certified copy and in the next letter they say copy of your signed agreement.

 

Now this is the inetersting bit, I have since located a copy of the T&C, they sent me at the commencement of my contract and those T&C are different to the once they have supplied with this letter. Not only that, but the alleged agreemnet is headed

 

CONFIRMATION FORM

Credit Agreement Regulated by the CCA 1974

Name

address

protecting your card

additional CArdholder

By signing this agreement, you confirm.......true info etc

Your right to cancel

my signature and date

 

What do you think.

 

 

[humbleman]

what might help is, if someone cleared all the crap posts that are irrelevent to the topic and that way you might be able to use this as a reference and avoid repeating. for example there must be no. of post referring to the time for producing CCA 12+2+month and so on

[humbleman]

I asked for "A true copy of the original credit agreement" as mine was BOS bought out by MBNA in approx 2004.

 

dpick:-x

 

In the same situation this is what they sent me

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/74733-credit-agreement-application-14.html#post698713

[humbleman]

1-1 Draw

[humbleman]

Okay,

 

So I got thinking about 'further action' and looked again at my agreement. According to my agreement it's between 'us' and Lantana. 'us' isn't defined on the agreement, though the card issuer is defined as 'MINT, PO Box blah...' I've written to the OFT to see if MINT has a credit licence.

 

Now I know that MINT is a businress name of Royal Bank of Scotland (that's what their website says), but surely the agreement should say so (e.g. Royal Bank of Scotland t/as MINT). What I'm saying is, presumably MINT cannot take me to court because MINT is not a legal entity, only a registerd business name. And Royal Bank of Scotland can't have me either because the agreement doesn't say it's with them! In effect, I think the agreement may be unenforceable.

 

I'd be interested in my fellow CAGer's thoughts on this.

 

Regards

 

Lantana

 

EXCELLENT observation.

[humbleman]

Would appreciate if someone can clarify for sure

 

If a trader (finance co.) hires to a Ltd. Co. under a Hire Agreement regulated by CCA 1974, accorded the same protection as a individual.

 

When i was looking for this clarification couple of months back I am sure I came across a site which stated that if the hire agreement is titled HIRE AGREEMENT REGULATED BY CCA 1974, then it is covered under the act provided it is under 25k and over 3months. I just can't seem to find this reference again.

 

All the references I have come across, does exclude Ltd. Co's.

[humbleman]

Thanks Smoothy

I came across that aswell and it doesn't mention a Ltd. Co. under exempt agreement, therefore one would assume that this are covered.

[humbleman]

15 Consumer hire agreements

 

(1) A consumer hire agreement is an agreement made by a person with an individual (the “hirer”) for the bailment or (in Scotland) the hiring of goods to the hirer, being an agreement which—

 

I think the crux of it lies with the word in bold above. An Ltd company is an entity in its own right but isn't an individual. Therefore they didn't put exemptions in the latter part to cover Ltd companies.

 

But most lenders are Ltd. Co's, but it says made by a person with an individual.

[humbleman]

Smoothy

 

I have noticed that the credit agreements and hire purchase agreements make a particular reference that Ltd Co's are excluded but no such reference in made as regards Hire Agreements

[humbleman]

As I said before, a LTD company can never be called an individual, it is a legal entity, but it is not an individual. If you've got an HP agreement that says it is regulated by the CCA 1974 and it lists a Ltd company, IMO they have the ultimate get out clause.

 

Thanks

 

This is a Hire Purchase Agreement as opposed to HP Agreement, 2 different things.

[humbleman]

[/font]

 

But this example only explains what happens if the hirer becomes an incorporated body

 

Ill keep looking though

[/font]

 

Thanks for that, what does that imply in simple terms

[humbleman]

In simple terms, if you've got an original agreement that is regulated under the Consumer Credit Act and the hirer is listed as an Ltd company, unless the Ltd company assumed the rights of one or more individuals and therefore 'inherited' the agreement, the Ltd company will not be able to enter into an agreement regulated by the CCA. It is commercial.

 

Ahh what I thought, and thanks for clarification.

 

But I ask why would the lender use such an agreement, this could be construed as misleading the hirer, Surely the lender knows the law and the hirer is no expert to think otherwise.

[humbleman]

This is an agreement between a finance house and hirer which is a Ltd. co. for some equipment over 3 year period and the agreement is titled - Hire agreement regulated by CCA 1974.

[humbleman]

Don't know if this has been covered, but this morning I have got a copy agreement that CAP 1 are going to be using form June 2007, now this is an agreement.They seem to have gone through the thread and CCA 1974 and adressed all the concerns that have been raised so far.

[humbleman]

A question for anyone for the benefit of everyone.

 

What should one do, if the credit card company issues a default notice whilst they themselves are in default for providing the CCA.

[humbleman]

Interesting development regarding my section 85 claim. I've just received a phone call. The cheque is on its way.

 

Paul

WOW tell us more