Cap1 & CCA return

[andrew1]

Statutory Instrument Practice

 

Statutory Instruments (SIs) are the commonest form of subordinate legislation (also known as secondary or delegated legislation). They are made by or under powers conferred by or under statute on Her Majesty in Council or on a Minister, the National Assembly for Wales or other body or person, and provide the detailed regulations which implement Acts of Parliament. As such they must always be intra vires, that is, they must be within the scope of the enabling power in the parent Act.

 

Which in laymans terms relative to meagain's post means............?

[andrew1]

I just had a copy of a credit Agreement duly signed by both parties ( T&C's omitted) but referred to as 'on the back' relating to a rather large debt sold by a bank to a DCA. I cca'd them in July 2006 - I received the copy today 31st Jan 07. Now the agreement looks bone fide enough, but what do you think I should do with it now it's 6 mnths late? I know they will need a court order to enforce it but what actually happens when it's a dca?

[andrew1]

Hi

 

If the T&Cs are a separate document but make up part of the agreement then they must be sent as well. This should be the T&Cs that were in force at the time the agreement was executed.

 

Regards, Pam

 

They were on the back of the original customer copy we had at the time ( unsigned)( It was arranged over the phone) but I only got a photocopy of the document face not the t & C's on the back.

[andrew1]

hi

The agreement is enforceable albeit with a court order with only the debtors signature and the prescribed term. Section 127(3)

 

 

So, if the face of the agreement has been sent, no t & c's or statement of account by the dca who bought the debt and sent it 6 months late from expiry of cca request, what do I have to do now? and how does the court order kick in?

[andrew1]

oops double posted sorry...

[andrew1]

.There are two other issues that I brought up and im reading from the notes I made.1) A DCA cannot issue a default notice wither they are acting for a creditor or not.The default notice must be served by the creditor as the agreement is between the creditor and the debtor not the DCA and the debtor..

 

Hi Terminator, I just came across this post 31 25th September and I really don't know if you have covered it later in the thread, but can this statement be substantiated?

Cabot, for example default the minute they take over a debt and I gather the bank then removes theirs. Can you point me to where this is caste in concrete?

[andrew1]

Could I just ask something please, I have an agreement document which appears to have all the prescribed terms and signatures, but I read previously somewhere that the particulars of the loan had to be in some specific order with interest shown before or after the loan figures, not sure which. anyway, this is the order which is on my agreement document and I wonder if someone might confirm this is correct or not: thanks

 

Order on agreement went:

Advance 13k

Credit Care Gold - 5956 ( insurance)

Amount of credit - 18956

Interest - 5296

Total amount payable 24253

 

followed by APR 9.9

 

 

also, this agreement was set up on the telephone, the documents were sent by courier and we signed them on the doorstep whilst he handed over the cheque. Is that okay ?

[andrew1]

Can anyone on this forum spread some light on the legality of Citicards action please? They are saying that they no longer have a "contractual relationship with me" and my right to be provided with an executed copy of my agreement ended with the closure of my account. Cheers ROS

 

 

Citicard refuse to comply with CCA request - what now?

Hi guys I paid of my Citicard debt two years ago and I recently sent them a request for a copy of my executed card agreement and Mr Clibbens has written back stating that as I have settled my account they are no longer under any obligation to provide a copy of my executed agreement under a CCA 1974 77/78 request. Is this true?

Your help on this one would be appreciated. I had previously submitted an Data Protection Act request and received copies of statements but no credit card agreement. Should the card agreement have been supplied under a Data Protection Act request, please advise?

Cheers ROS

__________________

RiPoFfStOpPeR

 

 

I don't know the exact answer to your question, suffice to say that if they are saying they no longer have a contractual arrangement with you they might like to answer why they are continuing to process your data for 6yrs from conclusion of that agreement by providing it to the Credit Reference Agencies every month as they do.

 

Under a DPA SAR request they should I believe, supply you with ALL the data they have and that should include a copy of the agreement.

 

I would imagine that as the credit agreement has now been satisfied, under a cca request they are probably correct, but not the DPA.

 

 

Edit: Sorry, Mike and I must have been at the keyboards at the same time!

[andrew1]

Angel, I think it far more likely that the contract is unenforceable for something other than the 20p.

I know there is a site that specifies all the prescribed terms, but I cannot

locate it at the moment. Perhaps someone else reading this can point you

to the correct site.

 

Financial Agreement Solutions

 

you've had a long night LFI -

[andrew1]

np but its gettin me going because if you read there letter she is saying she is above the law and if my facts are correct i need them investigated for fraud and the criminal offence. I will want the OFT to know werther they can still hold a credit license fafter writing a lettor like that also, along with the suspected fraud.

 

What you'll find is that they, like Cabot DCA, are saying they are using the purchase of the account as being under the Law of Property Act 1925 where they say they buy the Rights and not the Duties of the agreement. If you search the Cabot threads you'll see what I mean. Trouble is the Consumer Credit Act was brought in to protect the consumer and they seem to ignore this. Also, if you go through all the documentation you have silly things, like Thames Credit being registered under the CCA, so why register if you are not subject to its' laws?

 

Thames Credit have been ' introduced ' to the Cabot Fan Club their Director Mr Lunn having been informed they will be subjected to what Cabot has been if they practice 'bad Practice' - if you are writing you might like to remind him of that. Report everything to the authorities, helps keep them focussed on change.

[andrew1]

Peter, two things:

 

1 - if there is no 'credit' as such, then how can a DCA register defaults or change your credit file through a CRA? Surely they shouldn't be able to have any access to that file what-so-ever?

 

2 - if the DCA are in effect saying they only own the money, not the actual credit agreement, but are adding their own interest, whether based on the original APR or not, wouldn't there need to be some form of CCA between the person and the DCA? How else could they apply interest of any kind to the money...unless they have taken over the original CCA (which is what it always says in the Banks/CCards T&Cs anyway!)

 

My head hurts now!

 

Peter

 

 

Now, you are going to get me going - Interest and a dca's right to it.

 

Consider this: DCA buy a debt from say (x) bank at somewhere between 7 and 12% of its face value - not supposition - FACT.

 

So a £1000 debt is bought for £100 ( lets keep it simple @ 10%)

 

The DCA then writes to you asking for the £1000 so please pay up or make an arrangement. You make an arrangement. £5 a month for ( ever! ) You forget to pay one month or you are skint and don't pay. DCA charges you 12% interest on full £1000.

 

 

Their outlay and cost £100

 

This to me is immoral. The DCA never financed £1000, lent you £1000 or borrowed £1000 to give to you, but they charge you interest on £1000.

 

Figure out what to do about that? Where in the CCA either the Agreement or the Act does it entitle them to do this?

[andrew1]

see? ... you're not as mad as you make out!

[andrew1]

I have had a mortgage with Abbey for nearly 20 yrs. Because all this data processing malarky hadn't been in operation at the time my mortgage repayments were never recorded at the CRA's, so when business began to get tough and I didn't make my payments on time nothing was in the public domain through the CRA's. That was until I took advantage of a better interest rate package and I had to sign the new agreement, but hadn't noticed the processing of data part. I thought all that had changed was the interest rate. Now they process the data through the cra's and they will not rescind it back to the way it was. I argued that only the rate changed, but they say it's a new mortgage and your data is going to be processed. Would a SurelyBonds s.10 get that changed do you think?

[andrew1]

HI A

 

I think that unfortunately you will be bound by the terms of the new agreement you signed.

were you given the statutory cooling off period as per section 58 prior to the agreement being executed if not then perhaps you could use this to argue that this was not infact a new agreement,maybee?

 

Regards

Peter

 

Yes maybe, but I wasn't getting my CRA reports at that time and I only noticed it way after that period.

[andrew1]

 

Paul,

 

you need to give up on this lot

 

The only way you will get a satisfactory response is via the courts

 

That info from the OFT totally contardicts what theyve emailed me in the past:

 

And I quote:

 

" However, the copy must be a copy. It need not be exact on immaterial points, but it cannot be a conjectured reconstruction. "

 

Which if you look is the complete opposite to what you have been told

 

But more to the point I have been told in court that the only way they will satisfy requirements there is via the original documents

 

 

 

 

 

I must agree I'm afraid Paul,

 

If you look at some of the work being done on dca's via the courts, the way we get them every time is by asking for a copy of the original agreement. Most of the time they don't have them or can't get them from the OC - simple - it gets thrown out. Keep it simple. No CCA - No contest

[andrew1]

Contents of a leaked internal document of an High street bank date June 07.

 

Recreating lost CCA Agreements.

 

Under current legislation a Customer can request a "true copy" of their CCA Agreement - failure to do so within 12 days could lead to difficulty enforcing the agreement and more worrying if we fail to do so within 30 days the bank is breaking the law.

 

On occasion the CCA Agreement cannot be found quickly and in the past this led to the debt being written off. On identifying this problem ------- -------- introduced a new process whereby if the CCA cannot be found quickly ----- is able to create a "true copy" using data keyed at the time the loan was granted and the "style2 of the agreement used at that time- this can go back a number of years.

 

65 agreements have been recreated so far involving £250k of debt.

 

A classic example of thinking under pressure and adding real value to the bottom line.

 

I would just add that i am one of those 65 but unfortunatley for the bank i already had in my possession the carbon copy of the original.

 

Paul

 

If this is true, and I have absolutely no reason to believe otherwise Paul, then this hits me as Fraud and needs exposing to the Police apart from regulatory bodies. This is a criminal offence in the making. I cannot believe what you are saying it is an astounding revelation. I sincerely hope with your track record on here that you are prepared to expose this.

[andrew1]

Today received the application form with T&C's on a seperate sheet for a NWS Preference Account Card dating back to 1995.

 

Now I think I have said previously that this account was a card that also came with cheques. It had a limt of £2000 and you paid interest on the debit balance via a minimum payment on a monthly statement.

 

Now you may think as I do that this is a credit card account but looking at the application form that has come nowhere does it say it is regulated by the CCA 1974.

 

My obvious suspicion is that BoS will say this is a current account but the whole concept of the card was to use the limit given so therefore they are giving you credit to use as per a credit card.

 

Nowhere is there any reference to having a credit balance on the account.

 

I would urgently like your opinions on this.

 

 

 

Not sure what NWS means, but I had a BOS preference account attached at the time to a BOS Loan. On the Loan Agreement document there were all the prescribed terms, but the details for the Preference Account ran down the right hand side of the document with all the terms & Conditions on the back. If you PM me your email address I'll send you a copy. I had the cheque book and a card and it gave an additional £2k at the time over and above the loan. bit of a sharp practice when you think about it..

[andrew1]

Tide is right Willy. Also take a look here: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/113941-creditor-recreating-cca.html

 

if this is recreated they could be in for some trouble.

[andrew1]

hi tide,

The fear was that information, in particular databases containing large amounts of information could be made readily available to all and sundry, and could be used to their detriment.

this is what has happened to loans .co.uk...it seems they have information about people who have had absolutely no connections with thejm,i suspect that it could only have come from experium and the like,but what has the Information Commissioners Office done about this sod all their should be an imediate closure of the company and all records audited to find out where they got their info from instead the Information Commissioners Office is still allowing them to trade,so what chance do we have when blatant abuse is going on like this (i know that L.uk are blaming one member of their staff,,this does not wash the important thing being where did they get some of the info from

 

What would happen if you sent in a Subject Access Request under the DPA, surely then you'd know where the info came from? I just got a mailer from The Money Group in Falmouth, having been in arrears with a few payments recently this is a little too co-incidental and I'm going to send them one. A look over their history in Directors, company names, switching of company names, other directorships, accounts etc ( I'm doing a Cabot Fan Club exercise on them for which they'll be sorry !) tells me they might not be exactly what appears on the tin (we'll see ) so following the SAR route might be worth considering Patrick.

[andrew1]

I had a ccj on a debt which I never defended and they wrote saying they have no Agreement after my CCA request. I have recently written to the solcitors Geofrey Parker Bourne asking them to provide me with the evidence upon which they relied in court. This ccj was back 4 yrs ago, but I've heard nothing since.....

[andrew1]

Makes you wonder what the OFT are for at all? :?

 

... also, as for re constructed agreements, as one person suggested, why not make one up and do it in the name of the Judge, make him/her realise how simple it is. Not sure they'd be too happy about it, but certainly proves a point.

[andrew1]

Jumping in a bit on this thread, but thought some might be interested in something posted by EDz11 on another thread ( Thank you Edz11)

Might help some on CCA's and agreements generally:

 

 

 

I was never quite sure what the term "if any" actually meant (copies of agreements). So I contacted the man who actually wrote the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and asked if he could explain what "if any" meant.

 

He said that that some of the terms of the "executed agreement" (definition at the end of the Act) may not be in writing. They may be verbal (or implied?) terms. So there can't be written copy of a verbal agreement.

 

Upshot of that is that if you're dealing with a Bank/Credit Card Issuer/loan company then you can delete "if any" when reading ss77 etc as there won't be anything agreed verbally with that type of company as far as an executed agreement is concerned.

 

 

.

[andrew1]

[email protected]

hi everyone i a back but not fully recovered from my operation (twin by pass)still have the heart by pass in the next three months so i still have to take things very slowly and no stress i put into the above fraud and what it is for uniboy see if that will shed some light before you do anything

patrickq1

 

You take care of yourself matey.

[andrew1]

Can someone tell me if the CCA would apply to this:

 

I have a mortgage and a property with a lot of equity. In 2003 I was in trouble and requested a further advance on my mortgage of another 50k. I had a Directors guarantee 2nd charge on the property for £13k and a Caution on the property (won't bore you with why, but I was going to leave it there forever) for £22k.

 

My mortgage company after a long fight to get the additional loan insisted I cleared the two charges before they would lend any more so they had a clear 1st charge on all borrowing - not unreasonable I guess, but I had no choice. Now the funds were consolidated into my mortgage but pushing the loan up by £35k

 

My question is that under the CCA an advance to discharge a debt should be treated as a separate regulated agreement for provision of a fixed sum, restricted use debtor creditor credit falling under sections 11 (1)c of the Act.

 

Does anyone think this additional lending should have been treated likewise rather than just lumped into the mortgage when there were strict conditions on clearing these debts built into the terms of the transaction?

 

I have also started my own thread on the mortgage section, but this is a CCA issue combined with a mortgage and I know mortgages are not covered by the CCA generally. heres the link: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mortgage-companies/119904-additional-mortgage-loan-cca.html

 

 

Sarah

[andrew1]

I think it section 16(6C) makes it an exempt agreement. 16(6D) allows for any part of the act to be otherwise used but only enforceable by the court (126).

The other problem is that the actual loan taken out was 85K. Although elements are for items under 25K I think it is the total that counts.

 

but doesn't the fact that there are 2 different areas here, restricted use and unrestricted use mean that it becomes a multiple agreement? I know that happens with loans and loan companies, but what I am not sure about is that it was an application to my 1st mortgage company (A high st bank in this case) to extend my mortgage, but they made restrictions stating I MUST clear the other charges and made it conditional. That makes part of the advance a restricted use of credit and the remainder unrestricted, therefore making it a multiple agreement ( if it applies to mortgages) if you see what I mean?

 

Sarah