Cap1 & CCA return

[Chalkitup]

Hi Paul.... I'm sure that this hapens in a lot of cases......we need to educate people.

 

I am in the process of having a go a over 5-7 creditors.....none of them seem to have a decent cca agreement. I am refusing to pay anything until I see a copy of the original, if they want to take it to court, that is their problem. they can explain to the judge why they didnt supply me with the original copy. The worst that can happen is the judge bollocks them and I get on a payment plan....the best is they dont have the agreement and the judge bollocks them and I walk away smiling. either way its a sort of win / win

 

you pays yer money and you takes yer chance

 

Dave

 

Well Put Dave:)

 

I am doing the same.

 

HAK

 

Me too:D

 

Me too!

 

Maybe we should start a club!?

 

 

Is this my mistake????

 

I have received no agreements from the creditors I have sent CCA requests. Other creditors are being very unhelpful with various requests.

However I am in a DMP with CCCS and have been paying it for over a year now !!!

Perhaps I should stop all payments and then perhaps I might get replies and results?

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collectors-debt-collection/107261-chalkitup-dcas-4.html

 

Onwards and Upwards.

 

Chalkitup

[Chalkitup]

Hello andrewman,

 

You want Post 1 on the link citizenB gave you .... which is Create a new thread:

 

 

Onwards and Upwards

 

Chalkitup

[Chalkitup]

I have copied it to that thread but I dont know how to go about doing a link?

 

 

Here you go:--

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/barclays-bank/139728-my-mum-barclaycard-x.html

 

 

Onwards and Upwards

 

Chalkitup

[Chalkitup]

Hello All,

Been following this assignment chat as Moorcroft have been instructed to collect my debt .... and today I got the Notice Of Intended Litigation letter from them ..... where they list the extra charges that I will have to pay if it goes to court ..... am I right in saying they can not bring legal action against me and what is the best reply to their threat.

Thank you

 

 

Onwards and Upwards

 

Chalkitup

[Chalkitup]

Thank you Dave,

 

As I suspected .... but always best to check.

Not had the doorstep call threat yet.

Mind you the letter was in a very pretty yellow envelope.

 

 

Onwards and Upwards

 

Chalkitup

[Chalkitup]

Hello Magda,

 

First National might well have shot themselves in the foot there as it is my understanding that by not keeping the relevant paperwork for a minimum of six years after the account is paid up or assigned they are breaking various anti money laundering regulations which is VERY serious stuff.

 

Not dealt too much with this myself but good thread here...

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/93884-wescot-rbofs-oh-dear.html

(especially posts 32 and 67) .... .by Rory32 ..... where he actually got the balance discharged by bringing this point to creditors attention. (However they did not have agreement).

 

As Rory says ....

"The relevant Acts and regulations relating to money laundering (and record keeping accordingly) are along the lines of The Money Laundering Regulations 2003, The Proceeds of Crime Act and The Anti Terrorism Act. I think it's also in one of the drug enforcement acts as well and probably a few others. Each of the offences can lead to up to a 2 year jail sentence and/or a fine. The exception being the anti terrorism act which can lead to a four year sentence and/or a fine (a little more serious than not providing an agreement).

Also please be aware that The Financial Crime Branch of HM Treasury are the gestapo of the regulatory world."

 

Posts 9239 / 9246 in this thread might help also.

 

I hope this is of help or at least points you towards more ammo for your battle.

 

Onwards and Upwards

 

Chalkitup

Edited July 17, 2008 by Chalkitup
Broken link .... getting too old for all this!!

[Chalkitup]

Hello angry_cat and pt2537,

 

I have to say (and I do not like admitting it) but that DCA has actually come up with a very clever paragraph there. It is written in such a way that two people reading at it can come up with two different meanings.

 

I can actually see how someone can think it is an Equitable assignment and another person an Absolute assignment ...... it is all in the sentence "As the original lender holds the legal right to collect the debt, they also hold the right to assign their rights to XXX." ...... Does it mean they still hold the right at present .... or does it mean historically they held the right?

 

As normal a statement meant to mislead and confuse ..... but this time the DCA put some thought into it ......... Oh Dear ....... a DCA with brains ......

 

angry_cat ..... POST 11999 on this thread might be of interest to you re the CRA problem and getting compensation.

 

Onwards and Upwards

 

Chalkitup

[Chalkitup]

Hello Goldlady,

 

You probably are already aware but by not keeping the relevant paperwork for a minimum of six years after the account is paid up or assigned they are breaking various anti money laundering regulations which is VERY serious stuff.

 

Good thread here...

Wescot/RBofS.....Oh Dear!!

(especially posts 32 and 67) .... .by Rory32 ..... where he actually got the balance discharged by bringing this point to creditors attention.

 

As Rory says ....

"The relevant Acts and regulations relating to money laundering (and record keeping accordingly) are along the lines of The Money Laundering Regulations 2003, The Proceeds of Crime Act and The Anti Terrorism Act. I think it's also in one of the drug enforcement acts as well and probably a few others. Each of the offences can lead to up to a 2 year jail sentence and/or a fine. The exception being the anti terrorism act which can lead to a four year sentence and/or a fine (a little more serious than not providing an agreement).

Also please be aware that The Financial Crime Branch of HM Treasury are the gestapo of the regulatory world."

 

Posts 9239 / 9246 in this thread might help also.

 

Onwards and Upwards

 

Chalkitup

[Chalkitup]

should I stay on this thread now to report my progress to date and request any help

 

 

Hello dvdriley,

 

Best to start your own thread as otherwise your posts may get overlooked on here.

 

 

Onwards and Upwards

 

Chalkitup

[Chalkitup]

part of the CPUTR 2008?

 

What does that stand for, how can I quote that to Mint

 

 

Hello,

 

The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008

 

 

 

Onwards and Upwards

 

Chalkitup

[Chalkitup]

The problem with asking for the original document in Court is that the creditor will often cite the Civil Evidence Act as allowing them to prove a documents existence through a copy. The CEA reads:

 

8 Proof of statements contained in documents

 

(1) Where a statement contained in a document is admissible as evidence in civil proceedings, it may be proved—

(a) by the production of that document, or

(b) whether or not that document is still in existence, by the production of a copy of that document or of the material part of it,

authenticated in such manner as the court may approve.

 

(2) It is immaterial for this purpose how many removes there are between a copy and the original.

 

 

It is then up to the Judge, and it is by no means certain that the Judge will demand that the original document is produced.

 

Hello ian1969uk,

 

I thought CPR Practice Direction 16 7.3 came into play here .......

7.3 Where a claim is based upon a written agreement:

(1)a copy of the contract or documents constituting the agreement should be attached to or served with the particulars of claim and the original(s) should be available at the hearing, and

(2)any general conditions of sale incorporated in the contract should also be attached (but where the contract is or the documents constituting the agreement are bulky this practice direction is complied with by attaching or serving only the relevant parts of the contract or documents).

 

Onwards and Upwards

 

Chalkitup

[Chalkitup]

I've read this on a couple of threads and just wanted to ask a question - where has the law changed?

 

Are we talking about the Rankine judgment? If so, the Judge said it wasn't an offence to fail to respond to a CCA request then to seek enforcement via the Court. I can't find the bit where he said it wasn't an offence to fail to reply in the prescribed period?

 

Surely, as the CCA was enacted by Parliament, the offence would stand until it is repealed, (or have I missed the repeal as well) by only Parliament can do that?

 

:?

 

 

The offence aspects of s 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 were repealed by Regulation 30, The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 ........

 

SCHEDULE 2 Amendments

 

 

PART 1 Amendments to Acts

 

Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

20. In section 78 (duty to give information to debtor under running-account credit agreement), in subsection (6), omit paragraph (b) and the “and” preceding it.

 

Which was .....

 

(6) If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1)—

 

(a) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement; and

 

(b) if the default continues for one month he commits an offence.

 

 

Onwards and Upwards

 

Chalkitup

Edited September 15, 2008 by Chalkitup

[Chalkitup]

Hello,

 

I must add that CCCS have given me very poor advice over the years and when I started to question them they did not want to know. They were firmly on the creditor side and would not listen at all about unenforceable agreements!!

 

Onwards and Upwards

 

Chalkitup

[Chalkitup]

Hi All

Does anybody know the exact date that a default notice went from 7 to 14 days.

Cheers

HAK

 

 

Hello HAK,

I copied this from a thread a few months ago…

Also as of 1st October 2006 (came into force on 19/12/08 - see consumer credit (enforcement, default and termination notices) regulations 1983 (s1 1983/1561) section 3(d) then look down further to the notes at the bottom and date in force para 3) the period of notice to remedy the breach was increased from 7 days to 14 days from the date of service of the default notice. The CCA quite clearly states that the creditor shall not take action such as mentioned in s87 (1) before the date so specified or before those 14 days has elapsed.

 

Hope it helps ….

 

Onwards and Upwards

 

Chalkitup

[Chalkitup]

Hi, I wonder if someone can help with this. We are being taken to court for an ex MBNA credit card which was assigned (as is the norm) to Cabot. The 'application' that Cabot has provided is for an upgrade to a Gold Account. However, just been speaking to MBNA and they told me that we actually had a platinum account and they would have required paperwork to be completed for this - they don't just upgrade automatically. It seems therefore that this would have been a modifying agreement (think that's the correct term:confused:) and this is the account that would have been assigned, not the Gold account. Does this make any difference in terms of what documentation Cabot need to provide to pursue their claim? Or would they need to provide the original, regardless of what account was held at the time of default. I believe Carey v HSBC stated that if the terms of the agreement had been amended at any point (which in this case they would have been by changing the card to a platinum one) then the agreement provided would need to be an actual copy of the original, not a reconstructed one? Also, does anyone know if these old MBNA agreements had the t&cs included as part of the agreement, from what I remember it would have been an application only (mailer type thing) and t&cs entirely separate, if at all.

 

 

Many thanks, Any help really appreciated, Magda

 

 

Hello Magda,

 

The same is happening with me .... MBNA keep sending an old account application to me and not the Platinum one that I signed when I upgraded.

And I did sign one on upgrade ......I keep copies of everything and have done since the year dot!!!!!!! Best of all I have statements and letters from some creditors actually saying that the old "standard, gold etc" accounts will be closed when I upgrade and the "completely" new Platinum etc account will be opened. So MBNA are sending me an old application (instead of the Platinum one) for an account that years later they put in writing that they have closed and has a zero balance and is no more!!! This has been going on for three years and I eagerly await my day in court but alas they never seem to humour me .... just pass it around the DCA's.

 

Years ago MBNA loved the mailer type thingy!! They use to add a few chosen terms on the back ..... not prescribed usually and the application was normally smaller than A4.

 

There is a good thread that citizenb put together showing loads of MBNA agreements / applications ... I believe in the CAG library.

 

Onwards and Upwards

 

Chalkitup

[Chalkitup]

trouble is you cant rely upon chalkitups recollections so hard facts will be needed if the court is to consider this as a triable issue

 

Hello Magda / PT,

 

Ummmm .... slightly more than just recollections!!!

 

For instance ..... I have just grabbed the first upgrade I can find from my rather large collection ...... and surprise it is 1996 .... MBNA .... I had a visa and Mastercard and MBNA offered Platinum Plus Visa ..... the MBNA letter states To enable us to initiate this change please complete the following sections of the enclosed application ....... Personal details / additional cardholder / PPI !!!! / SIGNATURE AND DATE OF SIGNATURE ... all other details will be transferred from your original application unless otherwise stated. When the new account number has been established we will contact you regarding the transfer of any balances from the old account to the new account.

 

I have copy of MBNA Platinum Plus application here .... NO prescribed terms .... infact no terms at all!!

 

My statements from then confirm the visa and Mastercard accounts were closed and a Platinum Plus opened up ........... I even sent a covering letter to them confirming the closure of the visa and Mastercard accounts on being issued a Platinum Plus card.

 

Hope this helps one way or another Magda.

 

Onwards and Upwards

 

Chalkitup.

[Chalkitup]

DiddyDicky ...... read your last post but confused with 1st Credit answer ...... are they actually telling me they have sent a true copy of executed agreement ......... (you may remember they sent two generic T&Cs with my name and addresses just typed on ..... they put in their letter the following.....

 

"The two agreements are reconstructed agreements using details taken from Citi computer records and which is regarded as a "true copy" of original. Where a creditor receives a request to supply a copy of the executed agreement, the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 apply. Regulation 3(1) sets out that "every copy of an executed agreement shall be a true copy".

Regulation 3(2) goes on to state that there may be various information omitted from this true copy. Details which are not required to be in the agreement by law include the signature box, signature and date of signature. Therefore the effect of Regulation 3(2) is that the creditor is only obliged to send out a generic copy of the agreement the debtor has signed up to. The creditor is not obliged to make an actual photocopy."

 

"The two copies sent to you refer to the original agreement with Associates and then the amended copy of your agreement with Citi"

"We would consider the documents provided are legally enforceable and will be prepared to place the matter before a Judge"

 

Thanks

Onwards and Upwards

Chalkitup