Ingeus

[Mr.P]

I did tell the woman on the phone that I had filled in the JSA28 form and she looked at my record/file and was happy to remove the report from Ingeus, but if it's so easily seen when they look me up, why can't they do that before sending me letters/text messages telling me that I need to contact them ASAP or my benefit will be affected.

 

It is probably an automated system that doesn't bother cross checking data before sending out the letters.

 

I'm 99.9% positive that my Ingeus adviser is doing this on purpose. She looked so snarky when she booked me in for four 2 hour long job searching appointments and now I don't have to go to them, she's ****ed off and wasting everyone's time to try and get back at me.

 

You need to start the formal complaints process in writing. You should have received a copy of the Ingeus complaints procedures, if not, ask this "adviser" for a copy to be posted to you as soon as possible. When you start the complaint, copy the DWP in on it so that they have a record to add to their list.

[Mr.P]

You should be able to claim JSA/UC whilst between courses, although how long it would take before receiving any benefits payments would depend on which one you get. UC is (I believe) around seven weeks, whilst JSA shouldn't be more than a couple.

 

If your referral to Ingeus was within the last two years, if you signed on again, they may well invite you back for one of their pointless sessions. How long it takes would depend on when they notice you are back on benefits.

[Mr.P]

Anyone recommend a good way to approach this. Obviously there is nothing I can produce in terms of evidence which would prove that I didn't receive the appointment letter.

As far as I can see, all I can do is state in writing that I did't receive the letter, and maybe draw attention to my previous good attendance record.

 

If you have had history of good attendance in response to all previous appointment letters from both Ingeus and the DWP, then emphasising that point is probably the best response. You could also put Ingeus to task and insist that they provide documentary evidence of posting (with the correct address) and not simply a record of the appointment being logged on a computer.

 

If your Mandatory Reconsideration fails, please don't be afraid to ask for further help. We can find some references to previous appeals in the Decision Maker's Manual that went in the appellants favour in similar cases should you need them.

[Mr.P]

No, appointment letters have always arrived in the past. And mail in general is fine.

 

Royal Mail delivered some 14 billion items in the 2014/15 year (1). In the same period, they received around 260,000 compensation claims and a further 230,000 complaints about lost mail. However, if one looks at the tabloids (the most recent one I can find is dated 2012), mail losses were running at around 0.07% (2). In other words, the likelihood of a letter failing to reach its destination is fairly low.

 

Asking Ingeus to provide proof of posting (i.e. Post Office receipt) should be enough to kill any claim that they sent the letter.

 

1) http://www.royalmailgroup.com/sites/default/files/annual%20complaints%20report%20for%202014%2015.pdf

2) http://www.standard.co.uk/news/fewer-letters-lost-more-parcels-pinched-6958454.html

[Mr.P]

A sanction may be imposed, in which case you should follow the appeal process. If you do have to go down that route, have a quick look at this thread: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?437927-Tribunal-for-a-JSA-sanction-for-not-receiving-a-MWA-letter

[Mr.P]

The harder you make it for them the more likely they are to sanction you.

Ingeus do not sanction people that is the DWP, also they lose the chance of a pay day when people are sanctioned and have less resources to find work, so its not really in their interest to do so.

 

Whilst Ingeus and all other Work Programme providers can not impose sanctions directly, they can raise benefit doubts. These can be for the flimsiest of reasons which then cause considerable anxiety for the claimant.

 

In response to LemonNews' question: No, Ingeus do not have a lawful right to see your job search records. However, they could raise a benefit doubt on the catch-all excuse of "failing to participate". In addition, if they have mandated you to apply for a particular vacancy, you should be prepared to provide evidence if/when required.

 

You could do what I used to do with A4e (be warned, a high risk strategy) and provide badly hand written notes littered with abbreviations and cryptic notes.

[Mr.P]

I received a text from Ingeus saying my appointment was set for the Monday at 10.30am - the same day as my signing on day and the time for that was 10.50am.

 

Mandatory appointments must be made in writing and the letter either handed to you or posted to arrive in good time. Text messages, emails, and telephone calls are insufficient: This is from section 28 of the DWP guidance: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/505310/wp-pg-chapter-3a.pdf

 

Note: Your signing on appointment takes priority over any/all activities arranged by Ingeus regardless of what an "adviser" tells you. If they insist you attend one of their appointments that clash with your signing on time, attend the Job Centre as normal and show the appointment letter to a line manager. Get a note made on the JCP computer and make a formal complaint.

[Mr.P]

Personally I'd say above all else is to keep clam. With you sitting there engaging them, keeping your composure & staying within all the DWP rules to which they are bound... it will inevitably drive them to anger or threats/intimidation. I've seen this happen & honestly it's not pretty, but they always ended up looking like the crazy/unhinged person...

 

If you are in the position to, I would recommend recording all conversations either openly or covertly. I used to record meetings with A4e (one dictaphone on the desk switched off, a second in my top pocket running). Proved useful when I was accused of verbally threatening and swearing at staff. Also got a hissy fit from a very unprofessional "adviser" on tape after spending some 90 minutes pushing all the wrong buttons

[Mr.P]

I'll try to answer your couple of questions (all three of them )

 

1) If you think an activity is inappropriate to your circumstances/needs, the first port of call is the adviser issuing the MAN. If that falls on deaf ears, you can ask (insist) that it is looked at by the manager. Final stage is to ask for a reconsideration by a DWP Decision Maker. However, the last option would take time, so the activity may already have taken place by the time a decision is passed down. The option to request a MR of a MAN is primarily in place for the benefit of ESA and lone parents/carers, but there is nothing that says a JSA claimant can not use the same process.

 

2) Yes, a MAN should give some indication of how long an activity/appointment is expected to last. This should be covered by Chapter 3a of the provider's guidance.

 

3) Attachment fees are no longer payable. From the inception of the Work Programme, these fees were scheduled to be phased out as outcome payments came on stream. I don't recall seeing any guidance being issued as to how attachment payments should be used.

[Mr.P]

Well I've officially been off there books for a few weeks now! Thank god no more letters or demands from them...

 

Did you have your exit review and receive a copy of the report ?

 

If not, make a formal request via your local JCP next time you go in. If Ingeus didn't do a review, that will be one more bad mark in their book.

[Mr.P]

My question, is it right for us to expect a single document detailing all ongoing mandatory requirements, or do these paragraphs merely refer to how they should record details internally?

 

I think you will find that this refers to the activity mandated in the MAN that is issued to a participant. Ideally, each MAN should be for a single activity, and the victim^Wclaimant has the right to see a document detailing exactly what the activity involves. For example, you are mandated to attend a five day course on basic numeracy. You would be entitled to a detailed description of what the "course" covers and what mandatory requirements there are after the "course" finishes. It goes without saying, that once you have this document, you are in a position to challenge the suitability, especially if you already hold a recognised qualification in the subject (e.g. GCSE. O level, Ph.D...).

 

Yes, I got offered a four week "course" on basic English literacy. Nipped that one in the bud by pointing out that the adviser and some of his colleagues would benefit more from doing the course themselves.

[Mr.P]

Seeing as my name was mentioned....

 

1) Can you be sanctioned if you don’t come in for an appointment that was made on the phone, text, email or face to face?

2) Does anyone know what activates work programmes can mandate you to do? Been told I have to go in 3 times a week to do job search at their premises, do I have to go when I’ve already got a laptop and internet at home?

3) Also can they mandate me to show them evidence of my job searches?

4) Lastly does anyone have a template letter of me withdrawing my personal information (Telephone number and email address) from their systems?

 

1) If a Mandatory Activity Notice was not handed to you or posted in good time, then you should avoid a sanction for Failing to Attend. However, some Work Programme providers consider all appointments to be mandatory and will raise a benefit doubt regardless of how the date & time of an appointment was notified.

 

2) You can be mandated to participate in any activity if they think it suitable to your needs and improves your chances of securing employment. If you consider the activity to be unsuitable, you can insist on a reconsideration.

 

3) Probably. However, if you have refused permission to store & process personal information, they would be on a sticky wicket with the Data Protection Act if they wanted copies.

 

4) Best to write your own. If you need help, post a draft here for review and comment.

 

Background info: I avoided being mandated to participate in any "activity". Perhaps it was because they thought I might be a disruptive influence, or that some of their own staff would benefit more from some of the "courses" on offer.

My job searches were always presented as (poorly) written logs, littered with abbreviations and terse, cryptic comments. Was never asked to produce further evidence such as emails or copies of applications.

[Mr.P]

The danger of annoying these people is that it could make you a target for sanctions. So unless you have alternative means of supporting yourself, I would always advise treading carefully. I deliberately set out to push all the wrong buttons on my final visit to A4e. For my efforts, I got a hissy fit from the "adviser" and two benefit doubts raised. A nugatory exercise on her part as I had closed my claim for JSA an hour later.

 

In my opinion, speculative letters and telephone calls rarely succeed in securing employment and I have yet to see any research that proves it is worth the effort. Having been on the other end of the telephone fielding calls from the unemployed, all it does is waste time and annoys any prospective employer.

 

If you wish to challenge the activity of speculative calls & letters, ask for a statistical analysis demonstrating that it is an effective method. I doubt they would be able to provide any data on the subject.

[Mr.P]

I removed my consent back in February for which i have proof of receipt, since then they repeatedly text and phone (which i ignore) however now they seem to have discovered where i work and are sending emails to my manager and various other workers at my place of employment, would love to know how they even got hold of their email addresses..........

 

Do you have samples of these emails ?

 

If you have refused/revoked permission to contact your employer, then this amounts to harassment. If it is causing distress, it becomes a criminal offence.

 

First stage is a complaint to their CEO (which you have done), then follow it up with an official complaint to the DWP via your MP. That should get a few wrists slapped. If you can evidence any distress caused, you could try contacting the police, although you might have to be forceful with them when the front desk staff dismiss it as a civil matter.

 

A complaint to the ICO might also be in order if you feel that Ingeus is processing your personal data above and beyond any reasonable need... As you are in employment, you have no obligation to maintain contact or be subject to the demands of Ingeus. On that basis, it sounds as if they may well be processing your data unfairly.

 

If you lose your job as a result of their harassment, you may even have grounds for legal redress.

[Mr.P]

What happens if I lie and tell them I've got a job, even if it's just a seasonal Christmas temp thing to get them off my back? At this point I don't even mind if they stop the JSA, i just want out from them. They're so belittling and it's really knocking my confidence.

 

If you tell them you have a job, they will want employer name, address, and contact details so that they can claim their "off benefits" bonus payments from the DWP. If you actually have a job, even a short Christmas casual one, just close your claim at the Job Centre citing "personal reasons" and ignore any further contact by Ingeus.

 

How long have you been on the Work Programme ?

[Mr.P]

[...] she said she can't help me without any information

 

The cynic in me says I doubt she would be able to offer any worthwhile help even with the requested information and a clue bat.

[Mr.P]

I have 2 months left to continue to turn the screw on them now, the mouse has become the cat and I take great pleasure watching them squirm as they take pleasure in making the vulnerable, poor and ill squirm on a daily basis.

 

You could use your remaining time to give advice to the advisors on how to survive on JSA and in structuring their job searches more efficiently. i.e. Don't waste time on sending out mass applications, but rather concentrate on the ones more likely to produce a result.

[Mr.P]

The clock does not stop during any periods of not signing on. So your involvement with Ingeus will end in October 2017.

 

If they try to tell you otherwise, lodge a formal complaint with the DWP.

[Mr.P]

The JCP work coach can issue a job seeker's direction mandating you to undertake a 20 min job search using UJM. Don't be too worried about your password being stored. The computers that you would be using will delete any data when turned off, and if you want to make sure, clear out the browser history & cookies when you're done.

 

https://kb.wisc.edu/page.php?id=15141 shows you how.

[Mr.P]

To cut a long story short, I never went the first day, or any day after, due to anxiety attacks and depression. Now i've been asked to come and have an interview again with my personal advisor. Will i still have to do this monthly programme?

 

That depends on whether you have been issued with a letter mandating you to attend. If it was only a verbal request or a text/email message, then this isn't compliant with the guidance.

 

If you have received a letter, depending on the wording, it may be just an invite rather than a mandatory activity.