Arnold Clark/Blackhorse HP turns out to be personal loan

[Dipply75]

Friend got a car on HP (we think...have requested agreement to check now!) from Arnold Clark which quickly turned out to be a heap.

 

The garages 'solution' was for them to trade it in and take a 2nd car on finance again, paying of the exisiting agreement with the new one (yes, I know ). They asked for HP and got the new car ovre 5 years this time.

 

2 years into this agreement, car is a heap again. Has needed loads of work etc. So they start thinking about just voluntary termination....only to discover it was not HP after all, but down as a personal loan? At first glance it does look like an HP agreement, the layout etc and the car reg is listed...but no VT figures and the words personal loan at the top.

 

Then to add insult to injury, they discover that the finance company (Blackhorse) has registered outstanding finance on the car!

 

After searching I am finding more and more folk getting caught this way...its as if Arnold Clark etc are SAYING HP but getting folk to sign personal loans to limit VT losses.....but still putting the cars on the HP register!

 

Has anyone been through this, and is there anything they can do?

[Guest Arnold Clark Company Rep]

Hi, I have read the post and would like the opportunity to investigate this for your friend? If you could advise them to contact us on online.customer.services@arnoldclark.co.uk , we will look into this and see if we are able to help.

 

Many thanks

 

Alasdair

Customer Services

[flub1976]

Arnold clark have done nothing wrong, two years doesnt seem a bad length of time for a car to need a bit of work. Black horse will remove the interest and your friend would have had the opportunity to read the docs before signing.

[Surfer01]

We got caught the same one with toyota. Thought we were signing a HP agreement as the format was the same as HP agreement. This is a new con with car dealers.

[Dipply75]

Arnold clark have done nothing wrong, two years doesnt seem a bad length of time for a car to need a bit of work. Black horse will remove the interest and your friend would have had the opportunity to read the docs before signing.

 

Have to disagree...the con is to keep you sitting for HOURS until you are ready to sign and leave, then slide the agreement across the table, while holding the top and getting you to just sign the bottom.

 

They usually pick on folk that are too polite to argue with a pushy salesman etc.

 

And the car need a lot of work in the 1st 6 months.....the agreement was signed 2 years ago.

 

If you learn anything from this forum is just how many devious tricks there are to get someone trusting to sign something dodgy and get a fat commission of it. Scarily, you sound that kind of trusting.....what brought you to this forum?

[Dipply75]

We got caught the same one with toyota. Thought we were signing a HP agreement as the format was the same as HP agreement. This is a new con with car dealers.

 

Yup...:mad:obviously getting too many VT's. But why then register outstanding finance on it though?

[tattiedigger]

Arnold clark have done nothing wrong, two years doesnt seem a bad length of time for a car to need a bit of work. Black horse will remove the interest and your friend would have had the opportunity to read the docs before signing.

This is why i said some time ago, that if you have to buy from AC take a good lawyer with you.

[flub1976]

Im not trusting at all quitte the opposite i read before I sign which generally gets me what I want and less hassle. I have little sypathy for people who complain on here or elsewhere when they had the power to stop the problem in the first place.

 

I think the whole big bad car sales etc is often a case of couldnt be bothered to read or look and now i have buyers remorse i dont want to pay anymore. These kind of people contribute to the current nanny state protectionism that overall does people more harm then good. Common sense should rule and people have no excuse for not using it.

[Surfer01]

Im not trusting at all quitte the opposite i read before I sign which generally gets me what I want and less hassle. I have little sypathy for people who complain on here or elsewhere when they had the power to stop the problem in the first place.

 

I think the whole big bad car sales etc is often a case of couldnt be bothered to read or look and now i have buyers remorse i dont want to pay anymore. These kind of people contribute to the current nanny state protectionism that overall does people more harm then good. Common sense should rule and people have no excuse for not using it.

 

If you can't offer anything constructive, just crawl back into the same hole that you came out of.

[flub1976]

ok thought I was answering a question put to me.

 

If you would like something constructive how about-

 

The comment about VTS is correct in that the finance houses are using motorloans because of the increased number of consumers using the VT option (often at dealers encouragement to get them into a new car) The problem being that VT cost finance companies a lot of money as the legislation is very old and comes from a time when the residual value fo a car was a lot higher than in current markets.

 

This means that finance houses will often underwrite and credit score the car in more detail and unless there is a large deposit or a low depreciation vehicle then they will convert from HP to Motorloan (just another name for a personal loan). This does not affect the finance houses liability in terms of satifactory quality or joint liability for misselling by dealer etc.

 

The reason for the op getting the second car as a motor loan is probably due to the first car being an issue of negative equity part exchange because they hadnt had it very long and the settlement would have been (probably) too high. The dealer will probably say that the deal was a standard purchase, only way to do it and that the customer was aware at point of sale what was happening. If the 1st car was a lemon and could have been returned under SOGA etc then the dealer should have recinded the original deal and refunded the deposit then started afresh. Obviously this didnt happen and would be almost impossible to prove now.

 

As stated above black horse normally remove the interest recorded fairly easily (especially if another dealer rings them and asks for clearance) i know this is a pain, they probably shouldnt do it but i cant see anything happening to stop them.

 

I dont think you can really get anything done with this Arnold clark will probably just offer to look at a further refinance/deal and see if they can sell your freind another car but unfortunatley they will then be even further down the street of neg eq and longer finance.

 

Ps the hole I crawled out of is 20 years of working for car hp companies in a legal department and as a Car dealer

[flub1976]

Yes im aware that makes me the dreaded enemy of lots of people on here.

[Dipply75]

Im not trusting at all quitte the opposite i read before I sign which generally gets me what I want and less hassle. I have little sypathy for people who complain on here or elsewhere when they had the power to stop the problem in the first place.

 

I think the whole big bad car sales etc is often a case of couldnt be bothered to read or look and now i have buyers remorse i dont want to pay anymore. These kind of people contribute to the current nanny state protectionism that overall does people more harm then good. Common sense should rule and people have no excuse for not using it.

 

Oh dear...

 

Its wonderful that you are so confident, know all the ins and outs of the law, your rights and are able to persist and argue face to face. The problem is, many are not...and actually RELY on the salesperson being HONEST and not rip them off. ie trust them.

 

Which they are entitled to do. Common sense is lovely, but does not help when you don't know the ins and outs of the CCA etc while sitting in a showroom.

 

You obviously work in the industry....so any HELP on this forum would be so appreciated but not just slagging ordinary folk off because they didn't understand the differences in legal documents and TRUSTED what they were told.

 

And it is not the consumer that has caused the protectionism and nannyism you mention....its the greedy banks/salespeople/finance companies etc who have been running riot with our existing rights for years that have caused this.

 

If they weren't taking the proverbial in the first place, we wouldn't have a problem now would we?

 

And it was Arnold Clark who told my friend they had no choice but to take a bigger consolidated loan just to get a car that worked. Hmmm?

[Surfer01]

Your reply came over as very negative. Your second post is far more informative. We got caught the same way, but in our case the dealer told us that they only had a faxed copy of the agreement and the layout of tghe document was exactly the same as a HP agreement. I did read the T & Cs which again were very similar to a HP agreement also with the lasue stating that the car is theirs etc and signed it.

I had no problem until was made redundant and Toyota were the only creditor that refused a lower payment. When i figured that we had paid the necessary amount to return the car it was only then we found out it was a "fixed loan" and we had to request a copy of the agreement on several occasions as the the heading with Fixed Loan on it was blurred outdue to shading.

I also found out that the clause stating the loan was secured on the car was invalid as it was not a secured loan. This was from a leading brand and I have heard other stories of people being caught out in a similar fashion. The last car was about the 12 or 13th Toyota that we had pourchased from a dealer and all previous loan agreements had been HP therefore we had no reason to believe thsi oen woudl be any different. We were conned! A bitter leason learnt.

[Dipply75]

So, petty 'whos fault is it' argument hopefully over.....is there any advice on what my friend can do?

 

SAR & CCA request sent.

 

Thanks Surfer01 btw

[Dipply75]

Thanks for that Flub....you do see the subtle diffrences on the types of agreements being ffered now, but the ordinary person wouldn't.

 

I will scan and post the agreement but, as Surfer says, the layout is exactly like an HP agreement....not like a normal fixed loan and can be very confusing.

 

Have you any idea why they are still registering outstanding finance on the cars even though it is normal personal loans?

[flub1976]

If you friend can show that the agreement he ws given was not complete i.e smudged on the part that showed it wasnt hp etc. Then he may be able to claim that the verbal statements and impression was that it was HP and as such he could still VT. Afterall any statements made by dealer are regarded as contract under cca rules etc.

 

He would have to have a copy of the original signed doc that is unclear in its term conditions and set out and would not be easy. I have not seen a claim in this basis before but others on here might. try searching for unenforcable agreements.

 

Its not a normal Pers loan becasue the purpose of loan is restricted and so must contain the details of the restriction i.e for the particular car. As I stated they have a joint and several liability with the dealer under the cca for the vehicle .

 

Good luck but I think you will struggle unless your proofs are good. If they dont have the copies and cant provide them under your data request then you might have a chance, try going to court on the basis that termination still valid but its going to be a long shot.

 

As with HP agreements this is not really to confuse the hirer but because the law says it has to be like that.

[Conniff]

Time to bring this out of the cellar and back into the sunlight