Kingston Eden Street Bus Lanes

[DavidWilkins]

Many thanks for posting this. At last some common sense from officialdom. I appealed against my fine for a "contravention" in June seemingly on same grounds as this case & have heard nothing from RBK for several weeks- presumably waiting outcome of this. The adjudicator seems to be saying, between the lines, "If you want this road to be no entry at this point for cars & lorries, just put up a simple sign which says this." My grief is compounded by the fact I'm a ratepayer in this Borough & officials are wasting my money on getting these things wrong, then more by going thru all the processes which flow from this.

 

D

[green_and_mean]

My grief is compounded by the fact I'm a ratepayer in this Borough & officials are wasting my money on getting these things wrong, then more by going thru all the processes which flow from this.

 

D

 

Try writing to them and see how hacked off you are then! I've written numerous letters to Councillors and Council staff who haven't even bothered to reply . They are a bunch of buffoons they even admitted to me in a FOI that they started the 'pay by phone' parking system over a month before they had the traffic order in place. Most of their problems are simple to fix if they didn't stick their head in the sand like the proverbial ostrich. I actually live in the borough to and despair at the incompetance and Council tax wasted by these idiots. One of my pet peeves is this 'loading bay' in Surbiton http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Claremont+Rd,+Surbiton+KT6,+United+Kingdom&hl=en-GB&ll=51.393747,-0.304321&spn=0.001131,0.00284&sll=51.522522,-0.32648&sspn=0.006295,0.006295&geocode=FVw8EAMdBlz7_w&z=19&layer=c&cbll=51.393836,-0.304311&panoid=Bbglv8dDwr3_UEFFRsstCg&cbp=12,107.11,,0,3.57 outside loading bay hours its enforced as a no waiting no loading restriction despite having no yellow line and no kerb blips yet they claim this is lawfull....doh!!

[DavidWilkins]

And for a year near that bay there has been a huge sign giving "advance warning" of roadworks there from November 2010........

[HYMN AND MI]

Story is now in Surrey Comet, page 5.

[treasureirelands]

Hi guys, received a PCN, date of contravention 24/7. We were visitors to area and didn't even realise we'd driven on bus lane??

Could anyone pls help with my letter of appeal please? Is it enough to say signs were not clear??

 

Thank you in advance.

[green_and_mean]

Hi guys, received a PCN, date of contravention 24/7. We were visitors to area and didn't even realise we'd driven on bus lane??

Could anyone pls help with my letter of appeal please? Is it enough to say signs were not clear??

 

Thank you in advance.

 

Yes that should be fine but include a reference to the case in post #325 above.

[treasureirelands]

325?

[green_and_mean]

325?

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?260892-Kingston-Eden-Street-Bus-Lanes&p=3505185&viewfull=1#post3505185

[HYMN AND MI]

http://wzeu.ask.com/r?t=p&d=mys&s=ads&c=a&app=aoth&l=dis&o=101713&sv=0a65290f&ip=5602af9f&id=FBDDF94317EE7CFBD7F3BB74F12C60E8&q=bus+lane+eden+street+surrey+comet&p=1&qs=2869&ac=951&g=2645V1yY4iNgUd&cu.wz=0&en=gs&io=0&ep=&eo=&b=a001&bc=&br=&tp=d&ec=1&pt=Kingston%20bus%20lane%20blunder%20could%20leave%20council%20with%20...%20-%20Surrey%20Comet&ex=&url=&u=http://www.surreycomet.co.uk/news/9184099.Bus_lane_blunder_could_leave_council_with___900_000_bill/

[Rob11]

There have been several threads on these Bus lanes but all the OPs seem to disapear after taking the advice given. I'm trying to escalate the matter to stop enforcement and need to hear from anyone that has a PCN issued in Eden Street Kingston regardless of the current state ie cancelled, paid, outstanding.

I have just received a PCN for driving in a bus lane in Eden Street, which I was not aware I had done !

All advice gratefully received.

[HYMN AND MI]

Hello. See the decision I posted above. In the meantime, require the Traffic Management Order, video evidence, photo evidence and written notes of camera operator. You will have to view the video. RBK are currently seeking legal advice in view of the decision.

[Rob11]

Thank you. I have drafted the following to RBK - please advise if this is sufficient in the first instance ?

 

Many thanks

"I write to appeal this PCN and require you to provide to me:

 

 

1) The Traffic Management Order

2) Video evidence

3) Photo Evidence

4) Written notes of camera operator"

[treasureirelands]

We have received a letter few weeks after our appeal asking us to pay a higher amount (final notiice) as we have not paid yet, is this just a standard letter pending appeal decision?

[HYMN AND MI]

Thank you. I have drafted the following to RBK - please advise if this is sufficient in the first instance ?

 

Many thanks

"I write to appeal this PCN and require you to provide to me:

 

 

1) The Traffic Management Order

2) Video evidence

3) Photo Evidence

4) Written notes of camera operator"

 

OK: email address is: parking.appeals@rbk.kingston.gov.uk

 

parking.appeals@rbk.kingston.gov.uk

 

There is no extra spacing!

Edited September 18, 2011 by HYMN AND MI
spacing come out wrong ly in first e-mail address

[HYMN AND MI]

We have received a letter few weeks after our appeal asking us to pay a higher amount (final notiice) as we have not paid yet, is this just a standard letter pending appeal decision?

 

Where are we with this? Do you mean you received an Enforcement Notice? Please advise with all details. We need to see details of appeal and their response.

 

See this link for explanation of the process:

http://www.patas.gov.uk/buslaneenforcement.htm

Edited September 18, 2011 by HYMN AND MI

[treasureirelands]

Yes I emailed them on 9/8 to appeal and ask for photo evidence. Last week rec a letter asking to pay £130.

 

I did receive a acknowledgement receipt from them on 9/8.

[Rob11]

Thank you.

A carer was issued with a parking fine for displaying a disabled badge the wrong way round on the dashboard. The carer asked the warden to withdraw the fine on the basis that it was a valid disabled badge (which had not expired) but the warden refused, saying the badge was not properly displayed (even though the clearly disabled passenger was present at the time). Does anyone have any advice to help the carer appeal ?

[HYMN AND MI]

Thank you.

A carer was issued with a parking fine for displaying a disabled badge the wrong way round on the dashboard. The carer asked the warden to withdraw the fine on the basis that it was a valid disabled badge (which had not expired) but the warden refused, saying the badge was not properly displayed (even though the clearly disabled passenger was present at the time). Does anyone have any advice to help the carer appeal ?

 

Sorry but this needs its own thread for proper help as it is to do with parking.

[HYMN AND MI]

Yes I emailed them on 9/8 to appeal and ask for photo evidence. Last week rec a letter asking to pay £130.

 

I did receive a acknowledgement receipt from them on 9/8.

 

If they have not provided you with the evidence and/or considered your informal representations, they are guilty of procedural impropriety, which, strictly speaking is not a ground in itself, nevertheless I have seen one case with RBK in which they have "jumped" a stage, and cancelled citing procedural impropriety. I would e-mail them again and require them to cancel or you will be progressing to PATAS and seeking costs. They must provide you with the evidence!

[green_and_mean]

We have received a letter few weeks after our appeal asking us to pay a higher amount (final notiice) as we have not paid yet, is this just a standard letter pending appeal decision?

 

There is legally no appeal stage before the enforcement notice if you don't pay within the discount period they can just carry on and send you the the enforcement notice for the full cost.

[Rob11]

If they have not provided you with the evidence and/or considered your informal representations, they are guilty of procedural impropriety, which, strictly speaking is not a ground in itself, nevertheless I have seen one case with RBK in which they have "jumped" a stage, and cancelled citing procedural impropriety. I would e-mail them again and require them to cancel or you will be progressing to PATAS and seeking costs. They must provide you with the evidence!

But the PCN says "Any enquiry regarding this notice should be made in writing to the address overleaf within 14 days......If your enquiry is received after 14 days you will lose the opportunity to pay the reduced amount". This seems to imply that you do not have to pay the higher amount provided your enquiry is received within 14 days ?

[HYMN AND MI]

There is legally no appeal stage before the enforcement notice if you don't pay within the discount period they can just carry on and send you the the enforcement notice for the full cost.

 

Correct. But, we all know that RBK do consider informal appeals from many case histories. Therefore, they are at fault by not providing the evidence and by completely destroying the motorist's expectation of what is to happen next. In my view, on this argument, this PCN should be cancelled. The motorist has a right to view the video evidence, which they have bypassed. Also, in terms of Admin. Law, they are not acting fairly, proportionately or reasonably: throw all this at them. If other motorists are afforded an informal representation, then so should you! Furthermore, they normally put the case on hold until you have seen the evidence etc. So, they are way out of order on this one.

 

Frankly, depending on whether you want to play the long game or get this over with, I would just write to them and say that the lane has been declared unlawful as per the adjudication above: they will know what it is, believe me, as they are taking legal advice upon it. Whatever else, please do not pay it!

Edited September 18, 2011 by HYMN AND MI

[green_and_mean]

Correct. But, we all know that RBK do consider informal appeals from many case histories. Therefore, they are at fault by not providing the evidence and by completely destroying the motorist's expectation of what is to happen next. In my view, on this argument, this PCN should be cancelled. The motorist has a right to view the video evidence, which they have bypassed. Also, in terms of Admin. Law, they are not acting fairly, proportionately or reasonably: throw all this at them. If other motorists are afforded an informal representation, then so should you! Furthermore, they normally put the case on hold until you have seen the evidence etc. So, they are way out of order on this one.

 

Frankly, depending on whether you want to play the long game or get this over with, I would just write to them and say that the lane has been declared unlawful as per the adjudication above: they will know what it is, believe me, as they are taking legal advice upon it. Whatever else, please do not pay it!

 

Lets stick to the regulations as they stand rather than what you think they should be! They are entitled to consider informal reps just as they are to ignore them, there is no mileage in complaining if they don't. They do not have to send you the video but you should be entitled to view it or receive still photos but there is no obligation to hold the discount period whilst you do so. The bus lane has been declared unenforceable on numerous occasions that is fact and is a far stronger case than making up 'improprieties' based on your own expectations rather than the law.

[HYMN AND MI]

Lets stick to the regulations as they stand rather than what you think they should be! They are entitled to consider informal reps just as they are to ignore them, there is no mileage in complaining if they don't. They do not have to send you the video but you should be entitled to view it or receive still photos but there is no obligation to hold the discount period whilst you do so. The bus lane has been declared unenforceable on numerous occasions that is fact and is a far stronger case than making up 'improprieties' based on your own expectations rather than the law.

 

No-one is expecting what the regulations should be. The issue of whether they consider this OP's informal is, of course, salient since they always have considered others: fact. I am merely bringing this argument into play to nip this in the bud. If you care to read their policies online - and therefore grasp the expectation - you will agree that this is even more pertinent. To paraphrase Phillip Morgan from the Surrey Comet: the enforcement of parking and bus lanes in this Council needs an overhaul from root to branch.

 

While I agree with you re decisions, we are all faced with the incongruous fact that one PATAS adjudicators's decision is not binding upon another's so that, as usual, one needs the scattergun approach. You and I have had our differences in approach, but have the same outcome in mind. Interesting that PATAS sent an adjudicator down there to inspect - and that he had the courage to criticise the DfT. BTW, I was heavily involved in the case cited above.

[DavidWilkins]

Reply to Green&Mean's appeal for info updates:

 

I received a notice in June, sought advice from this forum (great-thanks all). Went to Guildhall & saw video. Gave verbal notice of appeal & received verbal assurance from named officer that I couldn't be billed for the double amount just because I had appealed & not paid £60 within ?how many days.

 

I sent written appeal within the 10 days, with photos of location (1st week July?). Shortly after saw reference in Surrey Comet. Have heard nothing since.

 

D