Unnoticed body repair

[synergistic]

Collected (on 12/10) a used BMW Z3 - W reg - purchased from an indepedent dealer two weeks after viewing and test driving the car. After using the car every day, I notice that the car has had some bonnet damage that has been repaired. There are other 'dints' on the bodywork from car doors, but the bonnet is a repair. The repair is difficult to see execpt under certain light conditions - twilight. The car seems to drive OK but the repair job is niggling. I'm having the car checked out for any mechanical/engine defects. Do I have any redress on the repair? It wasn't declared by the dealer and may not have been undertaken by him.

[heliosuk]

eeeeek, Tough one this!

 

The garage might not have known itself. Can happen. It's a used car so from a cosmetic point of view I would think is bought as is and a case of caveat emptor.

 

Conniff's opinion would be best sought on this.

[synergistic]

Thanks for response. As usual, I'm not experienced in buying cars and the adrenalin at the time always allows for not pulling thoughts together in the way you're able to in the cold light of day.

 

As I'm an honest John, don't want to assume the worst of the dealer, but ..... They say that, "....... is a well established Family firm based in Brinscall, near Chorley, Lancashire.

 

The company was set up by ............ who have over 40 years experience in the motor trade with two of the largest motor groups in the northwest.....

 

We specialise in selling quality used vehicles, all of which have been carefully inspected prior to sale in our own purpose built workshop.

 

We offer an extensive range of finance options to suit all needs and every car comes with an RAC backed warranty.

 

Our excellent reputation is built on being able to offer the best after sales care for your car before and after delivery." The car waas described as "immaculate" in the original description.

 

They had the car before I saw it and then two weeks between me agreeing to buy and then me taking delivery. I paid by Visa.

 

I guess the crunch on them being OK or not will come after I have had the engine and mechanics checked out!! I will approach them after that.

[Conniff]

So now that you know there has been a repair, you can see it all the time.

It has devalued the car and as it wasn't mentioned, you have paid the 'immaculate' price.

 

Have a look in yellow pages for a body specialist and get a quote to repair/replace the bonnet and ask him if he can have a look for any other damage/repair, he might charge a few quid. If you don't do this now, you might regret it at some future point because you don't know exactly what you are driving, and you can bet your life that when you trade it in somewhere, they will notice it and only pay what it is worth.

 

When you are armed with some facts, beit just the bonnet or other things requiring to be done, you can then decide what you want to do when you return to the dealer in respect of repair/replace or reject.

[synergistic]

yea, thanks for that. I have a 320 beamer and some really good mechanics that have brought that up to great condition mechanically, so that is my next step on Thursday - see how it is under the bonnet. If it is really sound then I'll be more chilled. They also know a top body shop they say so there is that next step. I guess it all boils down to whether the dealer writes s***e and cons lots of folk or whether I'm a bit gullable. The bloke who done the deal is "on holiday" so that gives me space. As you perceptively say, I'll always know the repair is there. But there's a giggle in that if I get it 110% under the bonnet. Cheers.

[heliosuk]

I think we have a case of "where there's a means, there's a conniff "on this one.

 

Just for interest what colour is the offending vehicle?

[synergistic]

I think it is called sienna red - it is of that colour type, looks slightly metalic and is very shiny.

[synergistic]

Update - had the car checked for mechanics - plenty of worn suspension stuff, but crucially a broken spring and a snapped hand brake cable that were in all probability there at the point of MOT!! Also had a viewing by a good body repair shop - perfection would be a replacement bonnet or a 90% perfect job for around £400 - all mechanicals would cost around £600 at an independent beamer specialist - presumably 25% more at a beamer dealer.

[heliosuk]

Hmmmmmm. Have you had it HPI'd? Problem is that MOT regs are " at the time of inpection" so whilst on the balance of probabilities it would be difficuly to prove. What worries me is the fact that they have said the bonnet need replacing. This could only in my opinion mean that it's had substantial damage in the past. Now the seller must have been able to see it or the inspection is perhaps flawed. If you get my drift, it's still not tying up. If I remember correctly, BMW had problems with your colour and issues with stone chipping. Can you give details of mileage, previous owners and areas where it has been? Motoway use cars suffer from stone damage and have high mileage but low mech probs. City cars have low mileage, good paintwork but heavy on brakes and to extent suspension.

 

Might help!

[JonCris]

Caveat emptor does not apply to a dealer sale The dealer MUST make you aware of any defects otherwise you can return & demand a refund. If done within 6 months of purchase you don't have to prove the fault existed before you took possession the dealer would have to prove it didn't & that the defect occurred whilst in your possession

[j66]

It's a nine year old car coming towards the end of its design life, you can't reasonably expect the bodywork to be factory fresh.

[JonCris]

j66 That's obviously very true but it has to be 'fit for purpose' so the bust spring & handbrake cable might indicate that the overall condition of the vehicle was not of saleable standard

[synergistic]

The responses to my initial post and my second one pose some of the dilemas. However, the general din'ts through wear and tear I could cope with even though they don't match the description and the promise of the dealer's web site in terms of inspection and customer care. A repair is didfferent from wear and tear. Secondly the spring and hadnbreak failure are MOT fails as I've been advised. the wear on other mechanical parts is more than that which would be included under a description of immaculate and again under the promise of careful insection that would have revealed any of the faults. It seems to come down to misrepresentation and exploitation. I've also found advisories on the MOT and it intitially failed based on areas related to issues raised in my independent inspection. Can the dealer get away with this?

Edited October 24, 2009 by synergistic

[buzby]

Springs may well have passed the MoT, but be ready to go - how many miles between the test and when you noticed they needed replacing?

 

Similarly, a handbrake cable can deteriorate slowly, making apportioning blame a difficult issue, uness all parts were warranted. I have a 4 ye old Espace, ownes since new and I've only done 10k miles, and I'm the only driver. I needed 2 new springs fitted - caught by the MoT as the fracturing at the ends were visible.

[synergistic]

It was my beamer mechanics who discovered the broken spring and cable as well as other very worn parts. Their view was that the spring had been broken some time as the ends were very rusty. The car had done 400 miles from me taking delivery. The car failed the MOT on 6/10 intially with the following:

 

Reason(s) for refusal to issue CertificateNearside Stop lamp not working (1.3.2a)Nearside Front Suspension arm has excessive play in a ball joint (2.4.G.3)Parking brake efficiency below requirements (3.7.A.9/10)Advisory Notice issuedNearside Front and offside Brake pad(s) wearing thin (3.5.1f)Centre Brake pipe slightly corroded (3.6.B.2c)

 

and then it passed on the same day. The rake pads were replaced.

[buzby]

If the springs are your main concern, these are always checked as a fail point by resters, and certainly, 400 miles would be ample time for them to snap and rust - even if garaged overnight. To pass the same day in addition to the pads, the brake wire would have been retensioned and it was this that contributed to its shortened life. The balljoint would probablt habe been replaced too to get round this.

[Conniff]

A handbrake shouldn't be adjusted by using the cable, the self adjuster should be checked for operation and all that is adjusted in the cable is the slack.

[synergistic]

But have we moved away from the issue of whether or not the car was of sufficient quality under the SoG Act in light of the descriptions of "careful examination" and "superb Z3" and "immaculate" condition? There do seem to be defects that even he MOT indicates. Bottom line, have I been subject of misrepresentation etc, I know that stuff can happen in terms of breakage on used cars.

[Conniff]

Yes we have moved away somewhat.

 

You have to decide, am I happy with it as it is? will I lose on resale?

 

The meaning of immaculate = without a flaw, fault, or error, but your bonnet does have a flaw.

 

What do you do, you can go back and ask about it and tailor your reply on what is said and the attitude that it is said in, or you can jump straight in and demand that something is done about it, ask for some compensation because of it's devalued condition (sighting the 'immaculate' description) or just forget about it and enjoy what you have.

 

If, on the whole, are happy with the bonnet but would like some compensation, you will get more by asking for in in goods and services than in cash which would probably be hard to determine. A service is £400/500 and I don't think you would get that amount in compensation if you did manage anything, so is always a good way to go.

 

all of which have been carefully inspected prior to sale in our own purpose built workshop.

 

The handbrake cable says otherwise to 'carefully inspected', so it would seem they are no different than any other seller who is only in it for the profit.

 

You should certainly request a refund of the bill for that. Passing the MoT on a new set of pads is very unlikely as they require bedding in, so I would say it was passed because the pads were changed and not put back on the rolling road to test them.

 

The springs are a bit more complicated, The opinion of the other garage is that they have been broken for some time because of the rust, but opinion, although probably correct, is not good enough to demand a reimbursement of the cost to replace them. Your choice is to get the parts inspected or just to live with that.

 

I'm afraid it all ends up with what you decide you want doing and how far you want to take it and how happy your are with the car.

 

In summary, I see your choices as request all faults found to be corrected citing misrepresentation, or agree a compensation package with them.

 

Initially it would be best to go see them and see what they have to say for themselves. If that doesn't go very well, then all future correspondence should be in writing so as to keep a paper trail.

 

Do you have past MoT certificates?

[synergistic]

Thanks conniff. That helps me affirm where I am in terms of is there a reasonable dispute - its funny how you can undermine yourself as to whether you're being over critical. I have all the past MOTs bar one but that is one of the ones that comes up on the MOT history check (motinfo.gov.uk) - that's where I also got the fail/advisory information as none of that was declared to me. I suspect that some of the advisory stuff is still there as my guys did their check in around ten minutes. I have decided I would prefer to keep the car - swapped plates to my personal one as part of sale proess, and the overall colour combinations and engne are right for me. On the other had, I do't like the idea of people trying to get one over on me, and also doing it over and over with the next punters that come along. Have started a paper trail - e-mail and recorded delivery - but giving them the opportunity to resolve issues to our mutual benefit. Have also written to previous owner to see what was discounted from her or pointed out by her when she traded in. My best position is to get some compensation - a reasonable amout and not unrealistic. I know if I get all the defects sorted the car will be pretty much spot on so that will be where I want to be. Thanks agai for your balanced views.