Refund of "Microsoft Tax"

[human.error]

Computer Supplies and PC Components from Novatech will sell you a laptop *without* an operating system, just click on 'customise' and then 'no operating system'. Likewise, if you purchase from Dell.co.uk and inform them at the time of purchase that you do not wish to use the Microsoft software\os etc then they will ask you to return the disks\licenses to them still sealed and they will reimburse you an interesting £7 or so, yes you did read that correctly, I did put £7 it's actually something like £5 plus vat, insurance and postage that they're charged per installation.

 

As for proving that the OS isn't installed, there should be no reason to send it away. Just ask one of their 'tech' people to connect via vpn and then they'll be able to 'see' that you're not using the installed OS wouldn't they? We live in a technological age, there should be no reason to be sending laptops here and there to prove you don't want a particular OS, that's just ridiculous surely they must be able to identify the system via some means other than physically seeing it.

 

HTH

[human.error]

Hi human.error, thanks for the comments, unfortunately as I've already purchased, it's too late for the link you suggested .. but I got a very good deal with the one I got from Acer anyway

 

Well that's good news then, at least you're happy with your purchase. Whilst not wishing to upset you however, you did purchase the 'extended warranty' didn't you? Cheap Laptops, Hard Drives, LCD Monitors, TVs, Televisions, Hard Drive and more at Ebuyer.com If not, you can purchase it aftermarket, I think the limit is something like 180 days after purchase it can be applied to your laptop. But of course don't quote me entirely on that, as it maybe upto a year, I just can't remember that clearly, but I suspect it's around 180 days. If not, I suggest purchasing it.

 

I called Dell before buying one as I was deciding between the Dell and the Acer. Dell categorically said "they could not provide it without an OS and DO NOT do refunds for Windows"! So that's why I didn't go for that one, they lost a customer!

 

Well that's understandable.

 

I agree, there should be no reason to send it away, like you say we live in a technological age LOL. Besides they're technical support, be technical

 

Exactly, I mean with tools like teamviewer available for windows boxes and equivalents such as: Ammyy Admin is a free TeamViewer alternative for remote support or: TeamViewer alternatives for Linux - AlternativeTo.net there's no reason to have to send the machine back when they can undertake the same tests as if they were sat at the machine, all be it remotely from their office.

 

But if Acer will only refund around £7 too (I really can't believe Dell pay so little), then to be honest .. is it worth it!? I guess it depends on whether I want to do it on principle.

 

Well they did say they were a 'volume supplier' and as such they were able to bulk purchase their copies of windows and then they said something about it not being fair to refund me 'retail' when they were only purchasing them on a 'volume license'. I wasn't going to complain, and had an old copy of XP anyway so it was no loss.

 

I'm still going to contact Acer to see what they say, but you can't contact them until you register your machine and I forgot to do that over the weekend

 

I take it you've had time now, so you've approached them and they've said?.... probably 'send the machine back to us and we'll confirm you didn't install windows'. Fwiw there is some Acer specific information on google and a few successes, I've not got time to go through them all but they are here: Google

 

Do you agree that the principle of being "forced" an OS is wrong?

 

I do, what's more if you read through the google links you'll see we're not alone in this choice either. Heck, even Microsoft include it in their eula, if they didn't want you to make use of it, then they wouldn't include it would they.

 

Good luck.

[human.error]

May I ask why you recommend this? I've personally never purchased any extended warranties before, as I've always believed them to be a bit of a waste of money?

 

Yeah sure, it's just I belong to a couple of forums and I've seen a variety of problems come up associated with Acer. You could reduce such stress for the princely sum of £30-£40 so I consider it a good purchase. This is especially so when you've seen the number of complaints that people have had after the Acer Tech Support have gotten through with their 'repair', you can see proof of such things here: My Windows Refund Horror Story (Acer) - Ubuntu Forums . At least if you've got a extra warranty it simplifies things for three years.

 

I sent them an email requesting information on how to obtain the refund, so will see what they say ..

 

I read through that success story and noticed they offered around £40 for XP Professional, so not sure what they'll offer for Vista Home Premium. Maybe it could be worth it

 

My fingers are duly crossed

 

I'm not sure what I'll do if they insist on returning it at my expense. aside from the arguments above for being able to do it remotely, why should I have to pay for them to comply with the agreement they included on their product?

 

Exactly, you shouldn't. There is a register.co.uk report of how it took some guy 4 months worth of emailing before Acer eventually gave up and just refunded him his copy of windows. It didn't say which one it was unfortunately. I suppose you can understand their position to some degree, afterall they get what the retailer paid for the laptop, plus the price that the windows license will bring them just as soon as it's authorised by windows update. The fly in the ointment comes when they find out that it's not getting activated and worst, you're aware of the eula and want your money back. Still, business is tough, and them's the breaks!

 

*I've just had a couple of thoughts. If you find that they refuse to relent and must have the system returned to them. Ensure you take plenty of photographs to show the current state of the laptop. So that if it comes back to you in a worse state, you can prove the state it left you in.

 

*Also, you could use a webcam on another computer and then reboot the laptop, then at least they shouldn't have any complaints about not seeing the computer boot up. As one of their issues maybe that you've got it dual booting. You may also like to email Microsoft UK and point out you want a refund from Acer. Then ask them how you go about removing the license key from the bottom of the laptop. Acer may just accept that you're not using the key and be done with it, or they might wish to remove or replace the bottom of the system so that there's no license key on it etc.

 

Also mentioned on the forum thread (I've installed Linux, now give me my Windows refund - FedoraForum.org), is that it may also be a good idea to complain to the European Competition Commission, it can't hurt, so I will also be doing that. I just used the online chat facility on the europa website (European Commission - Europe Direct - Web Assistance), they where very helpful and gave me the direct link to the complaint form .. Europa - European Commission - Competition - Consumer Liaison Office

 

Good idea. I'm sure you'll get your refund you'll just have to go up the company profile until you get to someone capable of making a decision. If it all goes badly, you could drop a line to register.co.uk or inquirer.net mentioning how Acer seem to have forgotten the agreement and just how disappointed you are, and to think you put your trust in Acer as it says all over the internet that they will honour the windows refund scheme

 

I'll keep you posted .... :-|

 

Thank you.

Edited October 8, 2009 by human.error
forgot some stuff

[human.error]

 

But I certainly wouldnt recommend setting up a VPN connection so that people can snoop at your PC, for starters its difficult to set up, even more difficult to set up on Linux or whatever non-windows system you are going to be using, you can setup programs such as LogMeIn or GotoMyPC which are simple but i'd certainly never let anyone else connect to my PC and nose about !

 

Andy

 

He's not going too though is he, I'm merely suggesting that instead of returning the machine to Acer Head Quaters for them to reboot it a few times and determine whether the machine is hiding a copy of windows with the license key that's present on the base of the machine. So he doesn't have to return it, he merely agrees a time to let them connect to the machine and then do whatever it is the want to do.

 

The advantages are plain to see, the OP doesn't have to send the machine therefore saving postage, insurance or carbon miles. I'm sure the OP will then advise them into which folders they can look in or not, and if they deviate from the agreed path, then he can simply grab the mouse and stop them going anywhere further. Realistically however, all they're going to have to do is connect, then run a linux software similar too Everest or Belarc Advisor (OProfiler) and the jobs done.

 

Unless he's Gary Glitter or unless he's got information for his eyes only, there's not a lot the people from Acer will be able to gleam from his file names or whatever. So therefore alot of messing around saved and all it will take is them to inform whoever at Acer\Microsoft the OS isn't being used and that's that. I also suggested a couple of Linux versions of programs not just gotomypc etc I prefer TeamViewer myself however

 

HTH

[human.error]

Personally I would write them back, point out the disproportionate costs involved in having to send the WHOLE LAPTOP to them. I would go as far as advising them that when dealing with any REGULAR Customer Focused company, you normally just have to return to them the still sealed disks, plus the license key. However, this being Acer they don't supply the Operating System on a hard medium, instead they deem the OS disk to be a 'Repair Disk' and therefore some kind of specialised disk that you can't aquire without you have some kind of technical knowledge.

 

I would also mention the cost not only in monetary terms, but also the fact that you have to jeopardise the safety of your laptop just so that they can shuffle a few papers. Also, if the laptop gets damaged then imagine the costs, you'll chase the courier, then the courier may feel obliged to chase Acer! And so begins the 'blame game', also mention that in these enlightened times we're supposed to be as Carbon Neutral as possible, surely the returning of the whole laptop just to satisfy someone's curiosity isn't really justified. If they want proof that the OS hasn't been used, in light of the fact that they REFUSED to include a copy of the disks in the box like EVERY OTHER RETAILER!

 

Then common sense must come into play, if the person reading doesn't feel suitably qualified to apply such 'common sense', then request that he 'put the letter BACK in the Envelope - Carefully! So as to avoid paper cuts!!' Then go and find someone more suited to their position within the company! Maybe there's a manager that can be trusted with the blunt shape of the envelope and enough intelligence to make a decision unaided!

 

Maybe for instance, they could arrange for a courier to come and collect the laptop at their expense! Afterall, you didn't request that they put windows on the thing, you wanted the laptop WITHOUT windows. Or see if there might be a means of achieving what they want without sending the whole laptop back, maybe like just returning the hard drive. However, again this shouldn't really be necessary, how about they CALL Microsoft themselves to determine IF the license code you give them has been used to download updates with yet? (It maybe a good idea to call Microsoft and confirm this first though, as Microsoft have a terrible reputation regarding their license numbers, you never know someone may have hit upon a license key that works and that one now belongs to you!).

 

Or you could even ask them if they had seen this news report:

 

French court says non to pre-loaded Windows on Acer laptop ? Channel Register

 

Ask them that if they require suitable guidance as to what that suggests? You could even advise them that you suspect you know, but should guidance be required you can get it from Trading Standards or : Consumer Direct or if THEY would prefer maybe they would prefer to find the answers to such questions, a little closer to home: EUROPA - Consumer Affairs - Consumer Organisations but you could remind them that we've come a lot way in the UK too, yes we too have courts that deal with consumer issues, so if you're charged the money you will be seeking damages from them at a later date.

 

And whilst you're considering all of that, then you may like to take a look at this, towards the middle exhibitL - Fullscreen

 

HTH

[human.error]

I have to say Thanks to 'GraceCourt' for your patience in explaining all of that. It saved me a lot of typing, that's for sure

 

For the benefit of the other two, Microsoft hold that you purchase a LICENSE to USE the operating system. You do NOT purchase the Operating System (their distinction, don't believe me call MS UK well technically Amsterdam and they'll take the time to explain it to you!) Also, the EULA is the part in which you agree or disagree with the License, if you disagree you press 'Disagree' and it tells you that it will cease the installation, are you sure... Yes = blank screen'. You can see it here:

during install, when it shows 'the license agreement' say NO. Obviously the youtube thing shows XP but Vista isn't that different.

 

It's my understanding however that as the OP has removed the windows partition, then they will not be able to boot windows and therefore reacquire the EULA. Unless they've got a virtualbox with eula displayed, but as Acer didn't include the install discs, he'll have to find one elsewhere.

 

All of that said, to the OP the exhibitL - Fullscreen at the end of page 1, and the top page 2 it shows that Acer Belgium has a procedure in place to deal with this whole thing. As a consequence I'm advised that as it's legally binding in a court in Europe, then it has standing in other courts within Europe, of which we are a part apparently. If you wanted to clarify that then you could email the EU variations of trading standards: EUROPA - Consumer Affairs - Consumer Organisations

 

Failing that, I'm sure GraceCourt' will have some ideas on how to achieve your aim.

 

HTH

[human.error]

Jeez...this thread has got complicated its no wonder it doesnt pop up much.

 

Personally speaking when i wanted a new laptop, I didnt want one with an OS pre-installed as i wished to install my own vista ultimate or seven ultimate later and hardly anyone have vista ultimate as an option, I had a look around and bought a netbook for £199 that i liked which came with xp, it didnt dawn on me to try and get a refund for removing it, I actaully still have it here saved as an acronis true image file so it could be re-installed should i wish to sell the laptop.

 

You could have saved yourself a disk, the 'value' of the OS isn't in the copy you have on your harddrive. It's in the little sticker that's on the bottom of the unit, or on the Manual that accompanied the laptop with a small Bar Code on it.

 

As long as you have a Windows disk, you can install the OS, then when asked to enter the license key\ Product Code, as seen here: http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj44/downarchive2/member2/26-Windows-XP-Genuine-License-Keys.jpg you see the characters and digits under 'Product Key'? That's the license number you would input when prompted, it would then invoke whatever version of windows the license key was for.

 

Yes you read that correctly, this was because the early Vista disks have all operating systems on them, the 'choice' was made when you put the appropriate code in. If it was a XP key, you got XP if it was Vista you got vista etc. So obviously, don't lose the manual or the sticker, or let anyone copy the code off the sticker for that matter as it IS the license to windows.

 

Now according to previous posts this copy of xp has no real resale value as it cant be re-sold,

 

That's what Microsoft say, its even what they put in their eula. But they adhere to US Law, in the UK we have a slightly different law, as long as the License hasn't been used, it does have some value you can even sell it to realise that value, though Microsoft argue you can't. So let them, just don't tell them the code\license number you're selling and they can't cancel it

 

without xp on it would be the same price anyway, may £10 - £20 cheaper max.

 

Fact is it has a value which can be realised at sale. Microsoft and their vendors want it all ways, they don't want to give you the OS but they want you to use it. They don't want to lose out on the sale, but if it's not installed on their hardware then the original vendor will spend money arguing with Microsoft that they should be allowed their money, well let them. It saves them arguing with you doesn't it

 

If you find an outlet, feel free to sell it. Providing it's not got a 'name' on the license, then you could get upto £40 for it. Be aware however, that unless you have official media then some websites that allow sales will not let you sell it, as MS says the license must accompany official media. Microsoft argues that unless you purchase directly from them, then you will not get any official support. But lets face it, who calls microsoft unless you've not got any friends or a tech support department? If you do you're only allowed so many calls anyway, I think it's something stupid like 5 and then they want you to take out another contract for more 'tech support', have they never heard of the internet?

 

Incidentally, when Vista first came out, 2nd hand copies of XP rocketed in price, you couldn't get a license for under £200 unless it was an official product, a couple of weeks later the price stabilised at around £70 however with the release of Windows 7 some versions of that come with a copy of XP built in, I know the ones I purchased all will, plus the ones for the media center. So you should see alot of people selling their old licenses pretty soon. Then you'll see for yourself how much value these items have and how seriously people take microsofts thoughts

 

HTH

[human.error]

I would just like to say thanks to everyone for their comments, expecially GraceCourt and human.error.

 

From my corner, you're more than welcome.

 

GraceCourt, regarding your advice about video footage. Sorry, I think I may have forgotten to mention that I did take footage of me getting to the EULA and then installing Linux... I filmed the entire process

 

Seems I now owe GraceCourt an appology, as you did indeed record you meeting and refusing the EULA.

 

So if i understand correctly, I'm not actually obtaining a refund for the software physically on the drive, but for the license itself (essentially the sticker on the bottom), which Acer has paid or will pay on my behalf to Microsoft? As I have not accepted the terms of the license, no contract exists between myself and Microsoft (via Acer), therefore Acer paid Microsoft on my behalf under a non-existent Contract?

 

Yes, that's pretty much it. Acer in their infinite wisdom haven't included a physical copy of the OS in the box. So you can't send that back, so you can only give what you have which is the proof and the license\product key sticker. If you're going to remove it, 1st seek permission from Acer and if they say to do so, then film yourself removing it. I suggest this as Microsoft put in various anti-piracy measures which means the sticker is designed to breakdown\apart as soon as you try to remove it, so be sure to get a good couple of images of the sticker intact to prove what you're removing.

 

You could also use this example:

 

Or heat it up using a Heat Gun or Hair Dryer, then try removing it with a razor blade.

 

I'm going to reply to Acer and suggest forwarding the video footage (and the license sticker) as an alternative and see what they say. Any other suggestions what to include in the email? Should I also point out that it's the license being refunded and not the software?

 

Tell them Acer Belgium has a procedure in place and you can send them a copy of this: exhibitL - Fullscreen to prove it. So it follows that they must have the same procedure, if they're the same organisation. Yes inform them what's' important is the license sticker and not the physical contact with the laptop, then tell them about all your recordings.

 

HTH

[human.error]

From what I can see this requires the shop to sign a form? I purchased my laptop on-line, so this is not going to be possible.

 

Although Acer did mention there is a Microsoft form to fill in, not sure what this yet.

 

Thanks for the tips with the license sticker

 

You're welcome.

 

I basically said in my email that I had video footage and offered this as an alternative to sending the laptop to them. I also asked if it's possible to get an electronic copy of the Microsoft form they refered to.

 

If they say 'no' then just get them to send you one, then use a service like: PDFescape - Free PDF Editor & PDF Form Filler - Your Free Online PDF Reader, Editor, Form Filler, Form Designer, Solution, you just upload the file. Fill in the details, save them then send it to them obviously. Alternatively, you could use: PDF Xchange PDF Viewer - Software To Open A PDF File - PDF Editing Software this one allows you to draw 'boxes' and then click on the text tool to fill the box in with the required text, it doesn't 'save' the work, but whilst it's all on the screen you get a basic 'editing' facility.

 

If I get nowhere after this, I'll start mentioning the fact it's the license that's being refunded, not the software, is that correct?

 

Pretty much, though to be precise the ability to use the software as without the code you can't agree to the license agreement. You could technically have a 'trial' of the software, just to confuse you further but after that you would still need the code for continued use.

 

So there should be no need to return the laptop?

 

That is correct, there should be no need to return the laptop as their requirements should all be met.

 

If they still refuse then next step is to mention Small Claims Court and bringing laptop as evidence?

 

That was GraceCourts suggestion and it would seem so yes.

 

I don't want to drag it out too long as I'm concious of the 30 day limit, which they also mentioned to me. I purchased the laptop on 30/09/2009, so with the emails going back and forth (plus weekends), I've used 12 days so far, only 18 left!

 

You've got the wrong end of the stick on that, the time limit is for you to bring the claim after purchase of your intent to reject the Operating System. Not for them to complete, though there would be a belief that all parties would wish to settle the issue at hand in a reasonable time. So you're 'safe'.

 

I am certain GraceCourt would agree here too, you've advised them of your intent to trade your License Key\Product Key for agreed renumeration, if there's any limit it's on them Acer. Not so much you. Though I should imagine that there's a belief that all parties will be expected to behave in a reasonable manner and progress things in a reasonable time, however, it's not like if you don't complete within 30 days they can rescind the offer fwiw they can't do that, it's just to guide everyone in a direction within a suitable time period so they can't then say oops you're out of time we don't have to honour this as you failed to send us document xxxx in time the impetus will be on them to act reasonably and for each party to meet the others expectation and apply the correct amount of emphasis to the transaction in a bid to complete, but if the 30 day limit passes you can still persue the claim, nothing will have changed in that regard.

 

HTH

[human.error]

Reply from Acer:

 

Please contact our dedicated call centre below this email who will be happy to assist you with this.

 

Not quite sure what to make of this. Whether it's them realising I'm not giving up and they can't fob me off, or something else? Only one way to find out I guess!

 

It would seem so, did you call them?

 

They've still not sent the Microsoft form they keep referring to. I've asked twice now.

 

Well that's their lookout, though it's in their interest of course to forward it to you, as I would think it would require at the very least a declaration from YOU that you were trading the license back, perhaps your signature too.

 

Oh and .. sorry .. I forgot to mention something else I said in my email. I commented that I thought the cost of handling the refund seemed disproportionate to the refund itself and it would actually result in a cost to me. Maybe they realised I can do maths?

 

Maybe, but better mentioning it now and in writing rather than argue the toss over it later eh? You can as GraceCourt says at a later date send them a small claims request for them to return to you x amount or at least that which you would consider disproportionate to the costs of sorting the situation out. But also include in there that you seem to have a friendly amicable relationship going now and you would rather not fall out as I'm sure they wouldn't, afterall the nexttime your partner has to purchase a replacement laptop, she may not look as favourably on Acer as she did lasttime, it maybe worth mentioning that it's true she's not going to buy 1000's of units, but when she goes to those meetings\lunches and they all 'huddle' at times of eating and they get around to discussing computers as often happens, comments such as 'Acers suck! well my partner was treated terribly by them because...' have a greater impact in these competitive markets. I'm sure you get the idea, there's not much a company will guard or maintain as hard as their 'name', so you could use that to your advantage. Who knows who your partner knows, she could make the same statement to the local paper person and they may pass it on to their mate who will discount acer just because someone mentioned how terribly they were treated! Better for everyone to leave the arrangement with a positive feeling, than a negative one. If you get my point, even if you don't they will and if you get it accross to them well enough there's a good chance they will cough up that extra £20 just to maintain that positive response from you.

 

Will need to go through all the comments again to prepare for the call. Make sure I'm ready for anything they throw at me.

 

Lol you're making it sound like its some kind of test, it's just a couple of people talking, but if you handle yourself professionally and keep your head you'll more than likely come back with what you want. If not, threaten 'em with the small claims court

 

Best of luck!

[human.error]

Lol, I just like to be prepared

 

I called Acer and the agent I spoke to, first of all had no idea what I was talking about, then when he understood, he said that a refund was not possible. I explained the email conversation said it was and what the value of the refund was. He asked for a reference number or the serial number of my laptop. Now, I've never had any reference numbers in any of the emails and they've never asked for my serial number, so no reference and the serial number would be useless. He said without a reference number or serial number he could not help.

 

I've replied to the email asking them to provide a reference number to quote to the call centre. Surely the person who sent the email would have known that this would be required and could've provided it for me, rather than me waste a 12 minute call at 35p/minute!

 

You couldn't make it up could you and after all that studying the facts too

 

Stick in there, I'm sure it will all get better in soon.

[human.error]

LOL .. yeah couldn't make it up

 

They just replied, re-iterating the procedure for a refund .. send laptop in .. pay £51.99 .. cheque will be sent for £33.95. They also re-iterated the 30 day limit.

 

If I were you, I would write a letter for the attention of Managing Director Acer UK.

 

'Bobby Watkins, UK managing director of Acer' June 2008

Acer demands commitment - 08 Jun 2009 - CRN use their head office address: Contact us send a brief synopsis of what's happened this far, what people have said and then how things seemed to have changed down a gear, tell them what you propose about sending video of your removing the os, how they themselves can verify that the license hasn't been activated by YOU and no updates downloaded etc everything we discussed and then advise them you just wish to find an easy reasonable solution to this. Also explain that you think it's unreasonable for the cost to be so disproportionate. Suggest he can sort it out with his office to get you your refund.

 

You could then get a couple of addresses of linux magazines, write a letter to each to their 'problem pages' announce to the world how 'not bothered' Acer are to supplying Linux, or worse how they push Vista over Linux at any cost. In order to put you off and so they don't have to honour their obligation even though you have proof there's a procedure in place, they require you to pay disproportionate costs. Then bundle this lot all off, and send it to the Acer UK address. Send the letters to the magazines, you should get a reply within about 2 months

 

 

Getting annoyed now!

 

Yes, I can see why.

 

Wondering whether to include the reference to small claims court in this reply.

 

You could, but it's just a case of applying the correct pressure. So you could do that, see what happens but be aware you'll have to go through with proceedings once they're started though you can use moneyclaim.gov.uk which is easy enough.

 

HTH

[human.error]

I decided to send one final email to technical support, I wanted to give them a final chance to answer my questions. I re-iterated everything and added the comments about the refund being for the License, not the software. I also asked that if they where unable to answer all my questions, to provide me with details of how and who to escalate the matter to. I don't expect much from them, based on current experience, so will see what they say.

 

Send a copy to the MD of the company too, as it WILL be quicker if he gets it. It would be much better to send a FAX, yes a fax don't ask me why it's just something that someone told me earlier this week, something about faxes usually being directed to the 'head' of most companies for some reason. I forget why, so try to send a fax of your letter and see how it goes.

 

You can't have too many letters bouncing around a company when you're trying to sort something like this out can you?