Parking Next to Double yellows in an old entrance

[smcg2212]

I have recieved a PCN for "Parking in a restricted street during prescribed hours". I was parked off the road in a blocked off entrance to private property. As I wasn't parked on the road, I assumed that it was legal for me to park there. Does the PCN apply?

[patdavies]

Without pictures it is hard to tell.

 

Lines apply to the whole road from the centre of the carriageway to the boundary of the highway (that includes verge, pavement, etc.).

 

However, if you were on private property, it may be that the PCN is wrongly issued.

[smcg2212]

Hi patdavies,

 

I was parked parallel to the yellow lines (and road) in the area that would have been the pavement, if the pavement had continued across the old entrance. No wheel or part of the car was over any part of the yellow lines or the road.

 

You said the lines apply "to the boundary of the highway (that includes verge, pavement, etc.)". Does that include private land that used to be an entrance onto private land, that is between sections of pavement? I have permission from the owners of the land to park there.

 

I don't want to contest this if I am in the wrong. However I am frustrated as I was not aware that I was parking illegally and cars are parked there every day (including today!).

 

Thanks for your help.

[patdavies]

You said the lines apply "to the boundary of the highway (that includes verge, pavement, etc.)". Does that include private land that used to be an entrance onto private land, that is between sections of pavement? I have permission from the owners of the land to park there.

 

I don't want to contest this if I am in the wrong. However I am frustrated as I was not aware that I was parking illegally and cars are parked there every day (including today!).

 

Thanks for your help.

 

If it is private land then the PCN is unenforceable (Contravention did do not occur). I suspect that it is the latter.

 

If, however, it is public land that you drive across the access the private land from the road (a illustration would be the lowered part of the pavement that you drive across to reach your driveway) then the road is a part of the public highway and the ticket is valid.

 

The only way to tell is to ask the highway authority for details of the boundaries of the public highway.

[WelshMam2009]

I'm slightly confused as to how you were parked but will add this incase it helps.

 

As has been said above, the highway normally extends to the rear of the footway. Any traffic orders on the highway will also cover the footway.

 

So, if you have a straight road with double yellows and you pull up onto the pavement or verge to park, then you can get issued with a parking ticket (and/or obstruction if it was a Police Officer.)

 

EDIT: Where there is no pavement, such as across a junction, then the limits of the highway are generally a straight line from back of footway one side to back of footway the other side.

[smcg2212]

If it is private land then the PCN is unenforceable (Contravention did do not occur). I suspect that it is the latter. ...

 

The only way to tell is to ask the highway authority for details of the boundaries of the public highway.

 

If I challenge the PCN do I need to include evidence that I was not on the public highway?

 

How do I contact the highway authority for these details?

 

Thanks again

[WelshMam2009]

If I challenge the PCN do I need to include evidence that I was not on the public highway?

 

How do I contact the highway authority for these details?

 

Thanks again

 

Records are publically viewable during normal office hours, check if you have to make an appointment for someone to assist. You may have to pay circa £20 plus for a copy of a record due to Ordnance Survey Copyright.

[smcg2212]

... EDIT: Where there is no pavement, such as across a junction, then the limits of the highway are generally a straight line from back of footway one side to back of footway the other side.

 

That would put me on the highway! However the owners of the business assure me that that section is owned to them, as it was previously an entrance to their land, and they pay business rates for that section of land.

 

So I suppose I need to confirm who owns it. Any ideas?

[smcg2212]

Records are publically viewable during normal office hours, check if you have to make an appointment for someone to assist. You may have to pay circa £20 plus for a copy of a record due to Ordnance Survey Copyright.

 

Forgive my ignorance but where are they viewable? The PCN says our County Council is the enforcement authority, are they the highway agency? do I contact their offices?

[WelshMam2009]

That would put me on the highway! However the owners of the business assure me that that section is owned to them, as it was previously an entrance to their land, and they pay business rates for that section of land.

 

So I suppose I need to confirm who owns it. Any ideas?

 

Their deeds may well show ownership extending to the road but it doesn't mean that the area does not form part of the adopted highway, unless it has been formally "stopped up."

 

Aside from land purchased for new roads etc, Highway Authorities do not "own" the subsoil. Nonetheless, roads/pavements forming part of the adopted highway are maintainable at public expense and a right of passage over them exists.

 

I honestly don't know much about business rates other than to say where I live, it used to be calculated based on rateable value.

[smcg2212]

Their deeds may well show ownership extending to the road but it doesn't mean that the area does not form part of the adopted highway, unless it has been formally "stopped up."

 

Aside from land purchased for new roads etc, Highway Authorities do not "own" the subsoil. Nonetheless, roads/pavements forming part of the adopted highway are maintainable at public expense and a right of passage over them exists.

 

Thanks again for your help WelshMam2009,

 

So are you saying that even if that section was owned by the business it could still be part of the highway, and therefore I will have to pay the PCN (or more if I challenge it)?

 

 

Not sure what "stopped up" means or how I find out if that section is or not.

[WelshMam2009]

Forgive my ignorance but where are they viewable? The PCN says our County Council is the enforcement authority, are they the highway agency? do I contact their offices?

 

Yes, they should have the records but just ring up first to check.

[Michael Browne]

Have a look here:

Planning Portal Viewer

 

Keep zooming in until you get to street level. Grey = highway. Khaki = Pavement.

 

This is not definitive, but will give you an idea as to whether where you parked may be private land.

[WelshMam2009]

Thanks again for your help WelshMam2009,

 

So are you saying that even if that section was owned by the business it could still be part of the highway, and therefore I will have to pay the PCN (or more if I challenge it)?

 

Yes...sorry!!

 

 

Not sure what "stopped up" means or how I find out if that section is or not.

 

Stopping up is a legal process where control of the land reverts back to the land owner, is no longer maintainable at public expense and no right of passage exists.

 

This can happen for a number of reasons such as new roads rendering old ones obsolete or perhaps large building re-developments.

 

I doubt very much that this has happened in your case. However, when you view the records, the area will not be coloured up as adopted highway if it has been stopped up.

[lamma]

Have a look here:

Planning Portal Viewer

 

Keep zooming in until you get to street level. Grey = highway. Khaki = Pavement.

 

This is not definitive, but will give you an idea as to whether where you parked may be private land.

 

Error 500:

[green_and_mean]

I doubt very much they own the access across the footway as this would prevent people legally walking down the street.

[WelshMam2009]

I doubt very much they own the access across the footway as this would prevent people legally walking down the street.

 

No it wouldn't if it were adopted highway.

 

As I said earlier, Highway Authorities rarely own subsoil and any land search will verify this.

[lamma]

I agree. The subsoil also gives clampers a few headaches. they know all about it but don't publish it too much. or operate by it.

see

http://web.archive.org/web/20020703195409/http://www.parkinsonbailiff.co.uk/newsletters/nl_003.PDF

[buzby]

Glasgow does issue many tickets in these situations, with motorsts feeling providing they are 'behind' the line, they are somehow exempt from the restriction. Thr Appleals service has refused to back them up, supporting the Council's contention that any former access wide enough to permit a car to park even though not in use (or a permanently closede gate) is still deemed to be part of the road and the 'controlled element' of the restrictions for this street.

 

You could certainly take it to appeal - as it won't cost you any more - but don't be surprised if it is rejected.

[green_and_mean]

The mistake drivers make is the confusion between road and carriageway the restriction for a yellow line covers the road not the carriageway and the road includes the footway and and crossing points over the footway.

[patdavies]

The mistake drivers make is the confusion between road and carriageway the restriction for a yellow line covers the road not the carriageway and the road includes the footway and and crossing points over the footway.

 

I agree.

 

However, this

However the owners of the business assure me that that section is owned to them, as it was previously an entrance to their land, and they pay business rates for that section of land.

at least as far as the paying of rates is concerned, may make the land not part of the highway.

 

OP can only resolve this by contacting the highway authority (not the Highways Agency!)

[green_and_mean]

I cannot see how a drive can be subject to business rates if it is not being used for a business?

[buzby]

I very much doubt they'll be paying rates on their access road - it would be handy if there were pictures to allow a visual check of the sightlines involved, but even then this is no guarantee, especially if the car was 'adjacent' to the roadway in question.

[patdavies]

I cannot see how a drive can be subject to business rates if it is not being used for a business?

UBR aren't just levied on buildings, they apply to curtilage as well

[lamma]

correct.

 

Also a sore point for retail parks (etc) and PPCs when the income from the car park is reported and the car park has to be re-rated.