Barclaycard Microfiche Gumph

[tamadus]

This looks like the one in the Abbey threads which I understand worked when they tried the same argument.

 

I have today posted the same letter myself to Barclaycard (by recorded delivery) with a similar addition pointing out that if they can supply me statements at £3 each then they must be stored on a referenced filing system.

 

If they dont respond with the rest of the data I have requested then I will make an estimated claim based on 2 years of details x 3. If it goes to court I hope they can explain to the judge why the claim is estimated. I will be very happy for them to contest the figures if it means they admit contravening the DPA and denying me my legal rights.

[tamadus]

Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't the Johnson V MDU case about processing of data and NOT how it was stored. In fact the notes etc I have read about it don't even mention microfiche. Johnsons argument was that the MDU had improperly processed his data as part of a risk assesment ( which he agreed to) and as a result teminated his membership. He claimed this caused damage to his professional reputation. The argument was not about him being denied access to data held on microfiche.

 

Where Barclaycard are concerned they are deliberately restricting access to data by claiming the microfiche argument. As I understand it they have the same obligation we all have in regards to the Inland Revenue, namely, to retain financial data in an accessible form for 6 years.

 

If they can supply archived statements for a fee then that data must be stored on a referenced filing system. I do not believe that a request for old statements is going to entail somebody doing a manual search based on date alone. Imagine the chaos that could result in. The microfiche HAS to have some means of identifying it to a particular account, either by account number or account name. If they can pinpoint a statement form 5-6 years ago to a particular account then that falls within the Data Protection Act.

 

One other thing comes to mind. The Inland Revenue can request financial data for more than 6 years if they are investigating money laundering. They are well within their rights to request data from Barclaycard or any other bank. Can anyone guess their response to the microfiche argument?

[tamadus]

Can someone who has paid for statements due to the microfiche argument confirm if these held account number and/or name ?

 

If they do then either the fiche itself carries the details or Barclaycard keep a lot of paper filed away. In either case it still falls under the DPA.

[tamadus]

The whole point of an estimated claim is to include in the claim that it is estimated owing to the defendants failure to comply with the DPA. The claim should also state that full disclosure is requested.

 

If Barclaycard want to dispute the amount in court they then have to make full disclosure of evidence they are relying on and they have to produce their evidence 14 days before the hearing, otherwise it is inadmissible and will be thrown out of court. Of course once you have the statements they intend relying on you can alter the amount claimed. Also the non compliance has been proved as they are suddenly able to produce the documents.

 

I suspect they store the micro fiches in the dame way thet Abbey do. Namely in boxes with a date and from/to account numbers. In the boxes the fiches are stored once again in account number order, with several accounts on one sheet. Any competent operator can find the right box flick through for the right sheet and locate the particular statement in seconds. Thats why it only costs £3 per statement and they make a profit on that charge. YOUR name appears on each statement and the data in that statement is personal data to you and you alone. That makes microfiche a relevant filing system under both Durrant and Smith

 

The microfiche charade holds no water whatsoever and the information controllers office is already investigating both Abbey and Barclays/Barclaycard. I suggest you all make a formal complaint to the ico just to push them further you can download the complaint form at www.ico.gov.uk

[tamadus]

I suspect your the one getting confused. £10 is the standard DPA SAR fee so unless you making a SAR why send them £10 ? Barclays have already clearly stipulated that data ie statements over 2 years old are going to cost £3 per statement so £10 is only going to cover 3 statements not 4 years worth.

 

Secondly Barclays are denying having supplied the data to other people.

 

The only approach is under the data protection act and in Barclays viewpoint for you to pay for the other 4 years of statements a cost averaging £144.

 

Where do you get the idea that microfiche is not a relevent filing system ? The ico have already stated that their current opinion is that microfiche is a relevent filing system under the act, something that was pretty much confirmed in both the Durrant v FSA and Smith v MCU cases, although both those cases were more concerned with HOW the data was processed.

 

This is only a stalling tactic used by Abbey and Barclays so they can limit the amount they have to compensate customers. The ico has already received numerous complaints about both and are investigating. Abbey have already had 1 visit and I understand are getting another visit on September 12.

 

The ico has recently issued an enforcement notice on the website B4Usearch for breeches of the act and they will do the same with Abbey and Barclays when they finish their investigations. Obviously they will take stronger measures if more people register complaints. In the case of B4usearch they had over 2000 complaints. With 57,000 members I am sure this site can register a lot more complaints against Barclays.

 

Message to Barclays if your viewing this thread. Your now past your 40 days and court action is being started without further notice for failing to comply with the DPA. A seperate (estimated) claim is also on its way. See you in court:)

[tamadus]

Hear, hear Tamadus - good luck!

 

As far as I'm aware the Durant Case does support our mission but from my understanding of the Smith Case (having read the transcript) it doesn't so be careful there.

 

However it is just a stalling tactic!!

 

Cpt Black

 

In both cases the circumstances are different to ours. Durrant hinged his case on paper documents that only briefly mentioned him and had no other relevence. Smith was more about the after effect of a review he authorised and again his claim seemed to rest on non relevant documents to prove his point. In our case those fiche contain data which can be accessed and carries both our names and account numbers. That makes it very relevent and immediately brings it under s7 of the DPA. imho of course

[tamadus]

The onus of proof even in a civil court is on the accuser. If you claim someone owes you money then you have to produce some evidence to support your claim. ie. dates of charges, reason for charges etc etc. or it will not succeed. Im not sure the argument that the bank would not provide you with the evidence to support your claim would stand up. Im sure Ive read that one of the reasons amongst others that an organisation can decline to provide you with information under the Data Protection Act is if it is likely to be used against them at court.

 

The Information Commissioner visit to the Abbey should be the start of the end of this argument and then we can really get stuck into Barclaycard..

 

Actually in a small claims court its not a matter of proof but of convincing the judge that your argument is better than theirs. Also if they rely on those statements as proof your claim is unfounded then full disclosure means they have to produce them at least 2 weeks before the court date to all parties. That futher validates their non conformity to the DPA which is all part of the reason for an estimated claim. I suppose the best way is to make a claim in 2 parts one using known data and the other half estimated based on the known data. That way the judge can see you have made the attempt to be reasonable

 

 

The DPA doesnt give any scope for refusing data on the grounds it may be used as evidence against a party holding that data. in fact its very clear that your data belongs to YOU not the party holding it. In fact I suspect that using that as a reason for deying data would be an offence under the human rights act, as it basically means you are being denied access to personal data which could be used against you in a court

[tamadus]

The simple fact is to use those older statements they will have to produce them in plenty of time. The fact that they failed to produce them following a perfectly legal SAR means they have already broken the law, I have a feeling that is not going to sit very well with a judge.

[tamadus]

Been Thinking Over This As Csl Have Now Taken Over From Mercers Trying To Get Money Out Of Me.

 

Yesterday Was Issued With A Notice Of Legal Proceedings.

 

Technically As I Have Not Been Able To Get Statements Out Of Barclaycard I Have Not Been Able To Pursue Them.

 

I Was Wondering Whether It Would Be An Idea To Send Both Csl And Barclaycard A Cca Letter Instead Of Pursuing The Back Statements And Going For The Jugular. If They Cannot Produce The Original Agreement Could I Get The Whole Debt Written Off.

 

Anyone Any Thoughts On This

 

Juli99

 

I have already started this approach and Barclaycard have gone into default on the CCA request today so just waiting another 30 days then I am going to hit them where it really hurts.

 

They haven't even acknowledged the CCA request yet.

 

Tamadus

[tamadus]

They have 12 working days before going into default, then they have 30 calendar days, after which they are committing a criminal offence and the debt becomes unenforceable. There are several threads that have discused this extensively.

[tamadus]

Tadamus

 

I have seen the uneforceable concept posted many times but cant recall seeing a link or clairifcation for it, do you have one please, someone was asking for it earlier and i dont know where it is

 

Glenn

 

Its covered very well in the thread 'Loan Company Cannot provide Original Agreement' in other Institutions forum.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/other-institutions/10900-loan-company-cannot-supply.html

 

Basically its covered in sections 77(1) and 78(1) IIRC of the Consumer Credit Act. In simple terms it means they have to be able to prove the debt exists in order to be able to enforce it, and the agreement is the only way of doing that.

[tamadus]

Newman & Co and AssetLink are the same. Despite being told NOT to call me and refusing to answer their security questions they are still phoning my home, my cell and my office. I have sent letters to both of them warning I will take action without further notice.

 

AssetLink are acting for GE MOney who have until the 16th Septemeber to comply with my Data Protection Act S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) so they have passed it over in retaliation.

 

Newman & Co are acting for Capital One who not only have an outstanding CCA request but I have also issued a claim against them on MCOL which was deemed served on the 10th September. They have until the 24th to file a defence, I have told both these DCA's that I will not hesitate to defend any action they start and I almost hope they do because the Judge is going to love that a file was passed over when already in the hands of the court. If either Newmans or AssetLink are reading this thread, I have one thing to say to you both, please read very carefully. I am sick and tired of your threats and intimidation, so if you think you have a case then please issue in court instead of trying to bully me into submission because I dont lie down easy.

 

In your case Juli I think I would send a recorded delivery letter telling them (nicely of course) that the next time you will talk to them will be in court when your action for harassment comes up. Also contact the FSA, OFT and Trading Standards and tell them your written requests are being ignored and that CSL are trying to intimidate you into giving up your claim.

 

If they do issue in court you have a defence ready made in your CCA request and their harassment.

[tamadus]

lmao send your son here to act as my receptionist

[tamadus]

Knowing how some of them work they will probably try chasing him for the balance out of his movie royalties.

 

But if its given you some respite great.

[tamadus]

Barclaycard have finally responded to my CCA request. only problem is they have sent me a copy of the Application form I completed when I first applied for a card. Now does anyone have any idea if this actually constitutes a signed credit agreement? I suspect its nothing more than an application form and NOT a credit agreement. Need to do some more research into this I suspect.

[tamadus]

Letter also received from ICO while I was away following my complaint regarding Barclaycard and my SAR

 

It appears they are currently trying to arrange a visit to inspect their filing systems but they do state that microfiche may fall outside an SAR depending on how the fiches are stored and retrieved

[tamadus]

Got A Letter From Csl Saying The Credit Agreement Had Been Sent To Me On 15th September 2006. The letter was dated 11th September 2006!!!!! But Wasnt Recieved By Me Until 4th October.

 

Cca Letter Was Received By Csl On 8th September a Friday. This letter was dated on the Monday 11th september

 

Even If Csl Had Sent The Credit Agreement On 15th That Would Have Given Them Just 7 Days To Contact Barclaycard And Ask For Original Credit Agreement, Barclaycard Find The Original Credit Agreement (off Microfiche As It Was Before May 2005) Take A Copy, Forward It To Csl Who Then Put A Copy In The Post To Me.

 

Who Did Not Receive It.

 

Does Anyone Think Csl Might Not Understand What A Credit Agreement Is?

 

Juli.

 

Not only do CSL not know what a credit agreement is but neither do Barclaycard. I sent a CCA s77/78 request direct to Barclaycard and got a copy of my original application form in return. needless to say I wrote back saying thanks but this isnt a copy of the signed , executed credit agreement within the terms of the CCA. Heard nothing back from them yet but their 30 days expired yesterday so officially Barclaycard are now commiting an offence.

[tamadus]

Gazing into my crystal ball I see that we have established that neither Barclaycard or CSL know what a credit agreement looks like and that CSL don't even know what the date is.:o

 

Why does this haphazard approach of theirs not fill me with confidence regarding the way they approach their normal day to day handling of our accounts? :?

 

To think we actually trusted these people and companies with our finances.

 

Has anyone else noticed how a letter from any of them carries a date yet it doesn't arrive for several days? Yet letters we send arrive next day. Ahh the crystal ball reveals they are using pony non-express:p

[tamadus]

Recieved Today Note Attached To Copy Of Application Form Saying

 

"pls Find A Replacement Copy Of Your Credit Agreement As Originally Sent On The 15th September

 

Kind Regards

 

L O'b"

 

I Was Hoping To Be Able To Find Out When I Took This Card Out And Then Multiply My Charges By That Many Years/months. Only Thing Is I Cannot Make Out The Date. The Day And Month Are Legible But The Year Comes Out As Dots.

 

Can I Ask Is It Better For Me To Stick To My Guns Until I Get The Credit Agreement, Barclaycard Are Already In Default And Only A Couple Of Weeks Away From The Debt Becoming Unenforceable.(i Think I've Got The Wording Right). I Have Stopped Paying Them.

 

Or Should I Just Multiply The Charges I Have By The Full 6yrs And Go Forward With A Prelim Letter?

 

Anyone Any Thoughts On This?

 

Any Ideas Gratefully Recieved.

 

This Is Like Pulling Teeth. Slow And Blissfully Agonising.

 

Juli99

 

All I got is a copy of an application form which to my mind doesnt prove an agreement.I wrote to them and told them I was stopping payments as any agreement they may have was now unenforceable. Their reply was that my SAR had been complied with , that microfiche wasnt relevant and that was their final wrod on the matter lmao.

 

Not heard a peep out of them since early October so I guess it's time to kick them again

[tamadus]

I have today written to my five defaulted CC companies to tell them that any agreement is unenforceable and that I consider the matter closed.

 

Now the waiting starts to see what they come back with.

 

I'll share it with you all when they do reply.

 

Pete

 

I'm planning to get the lketters written this week so November should egt very interesting

[tamadus]

This is more or less a "me too" posting.

 

Sent my SAR to Barclaycrud on 4th October, letter back "microfiche bla bla".

 

Then sent CCA s77/78 request. The 12 days are up tomorrow, without even an acknowledgement. 'Nother month and I'll be in the same boat as tamadus.

 

'Twill be interesting to see how this all pans out, wont it tamadus?!

 

Its definitely going ot be interesting. I haven't heard a word from them since I told them I was stopping payments as it's unenforceable, their reply was that my SAR was completed and that was their final word under the ombudsman scheme lmao.

 

If your watching Barclaycard I get the final word under the court scheme

[tamadus]

Thought About It Over Night And Think It Is Best For Now To Let Sleeping Dogs Lie.

 

If They Start Shouting I Will Shout Back But Until Then Leaving This One In The Background For The Moment. Going To Get Ready My Prelims For 4 Others I Am After And Will Be Sending Out S.a.r.'s For 2 Old Accounts I'd Forgotten About And Found Reference To When Going Thru Boxes Of Paperwork. One's A Real Biggy

 

I Love This Site. :grin:

 

juli99

 

Trouble with sleeping dogs is they often bite when you least expect it so I just keep nudging them to make sure they are still awake

[tamadus]

Well, they have 6 years to respond, so a good hard prod every few months should keep them uncomfortably aware of your continued presence!

 

LMAO don't worry Noomill I wont let them forget about me ;-)

[tamadus]

Of my five defaulted CC companies three of them haven't even acknowledged my CCA request, despite having cashed the £1 cheques!

 

One of the three was chasing me quite hard until about three weeks ago and I haven't heard a peep from them since.

 

I'm waiting with bated breath to see how all of this pans out.

 

Pete

 

It's amazing how quiet they have become lately I wonder why that is

[tamadus]

Do You Think It Is The Quiet Before The Storm. I Can't Believe No One Rings Me Any More. I So Enjoy Winding Them Up On The Phone When They Get Themselves In A Muddle.

 

The Woman At British Gas Who Told Me Just Because I Had Sent The Money And They Had Recieved It, Did Not Mean I Had Paid It. And They Would Be Taking Court Action Against Me To Recover The Money They Had Already Recieved!!!!

 

I Am In My Elements As For Years Now I Have Had To Take This Codswallop And Been Unable To Fight Back.

 

JULI 99

 

Call me stupid if you like but you sent them money which they have recieved but you haven't paid it ? so they are going to start court action for the money you sent them but havent paid them yet ?:-|

 

Am I missing something earth-shattering here ??

 

Add me to the list of elemental people