why you shouldnt use section 77/78 CCA 1974 if you want the signed agreement

[AA99]

No u need to send a CPR request

Make sure you mark it CPR request i will post up one later.

 

Hello GodMother:)I need to bang off some CPR letters, do we finally have a final version of one to send, could do with one too. I have mumbo jumbo CCA responses from a few Creditors referring to Reg.3 of CPR and Reg.9 of 1983 regs for accounts opened before 19th May 1985

[AA99]

This thread is work in progress please do not post on it yet

 

 

With all due respect, since this was posted, has there yet been a final template letter that we can use to enforce this reg prior to court proceedings, ie, receipt of gobbledy gook CCA responses......

 

Capital One acknowledged my CCA request today, sent on 8 Jan with £1 Postal Order, saying send us £1 and we'll send your CCA. What utter bo*****s:-x

[AA99]

Apologies, to you and to all, frazzled I agree, but sometimes I feel I'm going round in endless circles with all the creditors, dca's and various regulations and statutes being thrown in my face. Have tried all the various lenient approaches with them all initially, now I feel like sending them all one letter that say one thing, it begins with B****** and ends with s

[AA99]

Thanks guys for your advice, and I have always followed that, all my letters are templates from here or modified accordingly. I am just feeling so frazzled/frustrated at the moment. I also have nearly £800 gas and elec bills to sort with Housing Benefit today. Ofgem weren't much help and neither are Income Support. Where that's going to come from I just do not know.

 

Back to this thread though, as it is one of my frustrations. I have had so many letters back from OC's with their T & C's saying they've satisfied the CCA1974/2004 rules so wanted to use the CPR route, ie. Civil Procedure Rules. I am also getting Regulation 3 of The CCR 1983, ie. Consumer Credit Regulations, thrown at me. I understand much of this was amended in 2004, but don't know which bits and don't know how to respond to any of these OC's.

 

Also, 100 phone calls a month from ALL the different DCA's aren't helping, although they are recorded. All my letters just seem to go unanswered by law-breaking banks:evil: Am seriously looking at handing it all over to a Debt Management Plan with CAB or the like.

[AA99]

Knowing my luck OH would decide that it's the first time to get properly involved and end up sending the slanderous letter out if he saw it lying around:D

 

Lexis, my OH too! He gets so narked with the hours I spend on here but loves it when I read out the Cheekiness to DCA's posts:lol:

[AA99]

I have received this reply to a few CCA requests lately:

 

Consumer Credit Regulations 1983, Regulation 3:

 

3 General requirements as to form and content of copy documents

(1) Subject to the following provisions of these Regulations, every copy of an executed agreement, security instrument

or other document referred to in the Act and delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act

shall be a true copy thereof.

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy--

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instrument or other document relating to the debtor,

hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the

Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancellable executed

agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of the signature by the debtor of an

agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

© in the case of any copy of an unexecuted agreement delivered or sent to the debtor or hirer under section 62 of

the Act, the name and address of the debtor or hirer; and

[(d) in the case of any copy of an executed agreement given to the debtor under section 77(1) of the Act for fixedsum

credit, or under section 78(1) for running-account credit, under which a person takes any articles in pawn, any

description of the article taken in pawn.]

[AA99]

The problem you have with this argument is that an agreement does not need to be properly executed to be enforceable.

 

If you read post #4 of this thread

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/162851-consumer-credit-agreements-guide.html

you will see that an agreement that is not properly executed and was signed before 2006 can still be enforceable if it has the debtor's signature and the prescribed terms in the same document.

 

You also need to consider agreements signed after Jan 2007, where the judge has more freedom to enforce agreements even if they do not comply with the above.

 

The danger with your argument is that if you stop paying, claiming you never received a copy of the agreement, you may then be taken to court, whereupon the creditor produces a copy of the original signed agreement. Your argument that you didn't receive a copy back in the day is never going to be accepted by the judge as a reason for unenforceability.

 

So all in all I don't see how you your suggestion is going to help people get a copy of their agreement. If the creditor still refuses to supply it, then using PT's CPR 31.16 templates at the start of this thread is probably the only way to force them to either give you a copy, or admit they don't have it.

 

But Cap One are still coming up with the fact that they don't need to produce anything per my post below, Regulation 3 of the Consumer Credit(Cancellation Notices and Copy Documents) Regulations 1983:???:

[AA99]

If they sent you someone else's documents, they have breached data protection - I'd inform ICO and the person whose privacy they breached:D

 

In reply to a CCA request made on 7 Jan, to Cap1, I received a letter on 11 Feb, (backdated I presume!) to 13 January, quoting Reg 3 of the CCR1983. Also offer to refund 9 x £8 charge differences but sent me someone else's Complaint Settlement Form so I shall now use the ICO to force their hand and remind them of DPA. Will copy the other poor lady in on it too? Maybe she's got my form?

[AA99]

If my data was being sent to persons unknown, I'd want to be informed. Therefore I think it's only fair to warn the person whose data has been mishandled. You are obviously not going to abuse the info, but if it fell into the wrong hands it could be used in an ID theft - they've even got a copy of the person's signature; imagine what they could do with that!

 

As bad as it is, she hasn't signed her settlement form and neither have I, we haven't received our own copies yet, remember, , and even then we're not going to sign them

[AA99]

Eish, we are going round in circles with these people aren't we?

 

I'm about to CPR 31.16 these people too and I somehow thought this would be their response?!

[AA99]

its extremely important that you outline clearly why you need the ddocuments and that they should supply them to you as a matter of urgency otherwise you are unable to assess if you have a potential claim or not

 

So we need emphasise on the bit about before going to court, and reinforce to them that we want to go to court and need the agreements therefore......

[AA99]

Hya sorry togo back to the title of this thread as its becoming so clear to me sec 77/78 is not working... why because after my complaint with trading standards today was finalised I realise I am just going round and round. The letters i wrote to ask for my cca was the standard under sec 77/78. Trading Standards (will post up their report when recvd) say that as far as they are concerned as barclay card and mbna have provided the terms and conditions alone this means they have complied and have sent what they see as a true copy. doesnt have to have anything else on it not a signature presc terms, rate nothing... and this means that they can then say that the account isnt in dispute as far as they are concerned and then place inadverse material and defaults on your file...

I tried the cpr 3.6 route pre court disclosure.. they didnt reply iv sent 2nd letter.

Iv discussed the sec 127 route on this thread (thankyou for info)

There must be something else to make them comply?? tell me there is... my hope is dwindling.

 

Agree with you Muffin, I have done the same with all my creditors and keep getting the same replies...... they just keep coming up with alternative regulations. ICO have forced MBNA to produce an SAR today but still no CCA but as far as they're concerned, they've done their bit. I have found that all the supposed 'regulatory' bodies are siding with the banks, and even if you go to court, it seems a bit of luck on the day is with the Judge We are fortunate to have a very active LibDem MP in our area who keeps in touch every week by email so am about to go to him

[AA99]

I rest my case.......

 

Let's have a people power case and all meet together at these people's places :?

[AA99]

Guys,

 

I've submitted a s78request to HSBC for the GFs card.

 

The debt is not overdue or in default, she merely believes that they do not hold a signed and legal credit agreement.

 

They've replied by sending a blank application form and a copy of the T&Cs, as can be seen on my thread http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/hsbc-bank/185292-monkey_uk-hsbc-cca-g.html

 

Where do I go from here? Any advice appreciated.

 

TIA.

 

Have you claimed all your charges back? Is that what you're trying to do?

[AA99]

I've just sent off 2 x CPR31.16' this week for the first time and only in the absence of a credit card agreement.... waiting for replies and hopefully we will all be wiser this time next week, I'll love it when they all run out of regulations and statutes.............

[AA99]

Absolutely - great summary, heliosfa.

 

The real advantage of this CPR 31.16 / N244 route is that it should stop their 'keep you guessing' tactic in its track.

 

Once the court orders them to produce the original agreement they either have to give you a copy or admit they don't have it.

 

And, unlike a failure to produce the agreement under CCA 1974 or the Data Protection Act, they can't later pull it out of the hat, having told the court they no longer hold it. So you can get some proper closure on the issue.

 

Also the CPR route is a prior to court action tactic, you HAVE to have the docs to prepare for court, so that in itself may make the OC sit up straight;)

[AA99]

I so agree with you there DaveFW having personally been through a recent court case. (Nothing to do with CAG and my Creditors).

 

What bothers me are people who just want to get the debt written off, and much as I would like, all I set out to do was come to a mutual agreement to repay what I'd spent, without being bullied and harassed along the way. Despite having workied in the City of London for many years in the 80's, it's been an eye-opener so far for me !

 

ps. Am going the CPR route with everybody now, I think it'll clear a lot of things up quicker:-)

[AA99]

"EXEMPLO DUCEMUS"

 

The attack on RBS per examplia

[AA99]

A+

Hillards is/was(?) a long-standing member of CAG and has a wonderful website about DCA's. Have a look, am sure you will enjoy it:D

My DCA site - Powered by CO.CC

[AA99]

Don't forget, a SAR is sent per company, not per account.

 

Also bear in mind how many companies come under a parent company; Lloyds/HBOS, RBS/Natwest/Mint, etc.

 

For example 3 MBNA cards would equal 1 request and 1 fee, as would a Natwest and a Mint card.

 

Durgh:eek: After all this time, I didn't know that, I have paid £10 per account:-o

[AA99]

I was about to use the CPR route to force (AA99 v Capital One) them to produce my CCA without all their come-back with this reg, that reg, and have an ICO Case No. received today so will forward that on to them and Freds who have sent me another threatening letter, also received today.

[AA99]

They can be accused criminally under Harassment Acts pfha though. It would have to be individual directors being accused though. Human people vis a vis 'an institution'.

My tuppence worth

[AA99]

Can a private individual even instigate criminal proceedings?

.

 

I believe so

[AA99]

could someone look at my post #737 please also does the alledged debt have to be below £5000.00 to use CPR application ????? PLEASE HELP

 

I believe the £5k ceiling is for the small claims/quick route

[AA99]

then that is what they must rely on in court. You've requested them to specify the document they would rely on if a court case took place, if they write back saying this is it.. then bingo and I believe the correct term is "The donkey is filleted"

 

Pmw

 

 

In a lot of court cases though, the Judge lottery has asked, did you spend this money? do you admit that? yes, well then, pay it back:mad: All our quoted acts and statutes seem to be ignored by the very people that make them. Had an argument with the TV news tonight myself, about some archaic law that obviously needed changing. Surely it would be an ordeal to appeal and costly:confused: