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    • He was one of four former top executives from Sam Bankman-Fried's firms to plead guilty to charges.View the full article
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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
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      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

      Car was dirty and test drive was two circuits of roundabout on entry to the showroom.  Was p/x my car and rushed by sales exec and a manager into buying the mini and a 3yr warranty that night, sale all wrapped up by 10pm.  They strongly advised me taking warranty out on car that age (2017) and confirmed it was honoured at over 500 UK registered garages.

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    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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HBOS and OH's card debt


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Tits.

 

BlairOS just sent me (well OH) a Notice of Legal Proceedings as the Default was not remedied and they've now terminated the account. Only thing is, they've asked for the odd amount of 107.72. Not sure how they got this amount - If it's been terminated they can go for the lot (assuming the DN is ok, which it's not). So, I would have thought if it's not the full amount it would at least be the arrears, but the arrears were only about £50/60 last month, so couldn't be up by nearly double. Strange.

 

Anyhoo, I'll be sending them the CPR that I used for the other BOS account (the one they never replied to), and a lovely letter to Dawn Hood, who it would appear has not got a clue about this account, despite being 'Senior Operations Manager'. Does anyone else find these jumped up titles laughable by the way?

 

If they actually were the 'manager' of anything they'd have half a fecking idea what was going on.

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This is going out this afternoon.

 

I have today received your letter dated 27th February, sent by 2nd Class post and requiring a response within 7 days. Oddly, letters regarding complaints etc seem to be sent in a rather more prompt fashion, but I’m sure this is not a calculated move on your company’s part, as that would be wholly unprofessional.

 

I have included two letters with this covering note.

 

First is a legal request under the Civil Procedure Rules for information, given that your ‘clients’ intend to start legal proceedings.

 

Second is a copy of the letter I recently sent to Miss Gartshore at the Bank of Scotland. I suggest you read it and take note of the points raised within it.

 

I am no longer willing to enter into protracted arguments with your company, either in the guise of Blair Oliver and Scott or the Bank of Scotland, so I will keep this brief.

 

It seems that the Bank of Scotland has neglected to inform you that this account is currently unenforceable at law, a fact that they have put in writing to me.

 

Also, you seem to be unaware that this account has been terminated after issuing me with a faulty Default Notice, the reasons for which are outlined in the accompanying letter. As such your claim, if it had any legal merit, which it plainly does not, would be limited to the arrears of £59.02.

 

I do not expect to hear from you again, save to respond to my request under the Civil Procedure rules.

God I feel better for writing that:D

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  • 2 weeks later...

Oh dear

 

I don't think they've quite accepted the very fair offer I made in my last letter (ie feck off and leave us alone:D)

 

We've been having a few lovely chats on the phone with Iqor (they've not told me that's who they are, I had to look up the number).

 

Now, I thought this was for the other BOS account as they seem to be a bit more annoyed with us, but no, it's this one:rolleyes:

 

Anyhoo, apparently (according to the letter received today), they're going to do all manner of awful things, 'regardless of whether you actually read this notice or not' :lol::lol::lol: They actually highlighted that bit in red:D I did chuckle.

 

So, they may commence legal action which may well (note may well - that's much more serious than may) result in a judgement and they may also instruct someone with even less brain power than them to visit.

 

Even more than that, they've not bothered to put what company they're doing this for, they've just said 'Mastercard have passed your debt'

 

Quick f-off to them I feel. And then I have to decide what to do with this account...

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quick draft for anyone's thoughts...

 

Dear Mr Harker-Brown

 

Ref - xxx

 

I am in receipt of your letter dated xxth March 2009.

 

Despite the fact you have not bothered to include the company you are working for, I have ascertained it is the Bank of Scotland.

 

Unfortunately it appears that they have once again conveniently forgotten to tell their recovery agents that this account is irrevocably unenforceable, and that neither they nor you have any right to legal action.

 

I suggest you pass this account back to the Bank of Scotland, as there is absolutely no possibility of me dealing with you.

 

In addition, there is only an implied license under English Common Law for people to be able to visit me on my property without express permission; ie the postman and people asking for directions etc (Armstrong v. Sheppard and Short Ltd [1959] 2 Q.B. per Lord Evershed M.R.). Therefore take note that I revoke license under Common Law for you, or your representatives, to visit me at my property, and if you do so you will be liable to damages for a tort of trespass and action will be taken, including but not limited to, police attendance.

 

In addition to this, if you ignore my refusal to give you permission to visit my property and decide to continue with any kind of home visit, you will be invoiced £50 for the use of my footpath, which is private property.

 

I do not expect to hear from you again, save for a letter informing me you have closed your files and passed the account back to the Bank of Scotland.

 

Yours sincerely

 

I was sorely tempted to be very sarcastic (the original was about twice as long due to this), but then I decided that CB would only tell me off so I took it all out:D

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I think I will borrow that letter Lexis. I have received much the same from IQOR regarding OH's Halifax account. Just one problem here. In the same post was a letter from Wescot, offering a substantial discount in response to the letter I sent them from post 58 in this thread :confused:

 

I have sent each company a copy of the other's letter and told them to work out who exactly Halifax has asked to collect on this account then let me know :D

 

Excellent!! Let us know what they have to say for themselves:D

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Thanks Nurse Elsa:) Hope it helps you! I have another BOS thread going if you want to have a look there - it just shows how they don't follow the same tack even though the details are the same.

 

Well, OH just had a very amusing conversation with a lovely girl at BOS. She phoned, I told him to go through security to find out what account this was, all ready with the details to give him on what to say, but there was no need. It kind of went like this.

 

BOS - thanks for going through security, I'm just bringing up your notes.

OH -Ok

BOS - deathly quiet pause. Oh, I see there should have been a 30 day hold on your account, I'm terribly sorry to have phoned you, I do apologise, I just need to speak to my manager.

OH - Ok

BOS - right, my manager has told me to place another hold on your account for a further 30 days, and again, I can only apologise that I phoned you now.

 

This went on for a bit - I've never heard anyone apologise so much in such a short space of time. I can only imagine what she saw when the notes flashed up - a great big neon 'DO NOT PHONE' perhaps:D

 

Anyway, the poor woman did sound rather flustered, and as I said she could not have been more apologetic. It does make me wonder if they might be taking this a little more seriously now though if they are putting 30 day holds on calls? Or it could mean nothing, but I'm in a fairly optimistic mood tonight:D

 

That's my news for tonight anyway.

 

Lexis:)

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Letter re ceived yesterday about the invoice and.....

 

They won't pay. I'm shocked, truly I am :p It is however their reason for not paying that I find amusing, and possibly rather helpful!

 

As they are apparently formulating another letter dealing with the application, I'll keep this going until I have that response.

 

so..

 

I am in receipt of your letter dated 23rd March, received today, that addresses one of my complaints contained within my letter of the 27th February.

 

You start your response by informing me that you are sorry for any distress your calls may have caused, and that this was not the intention. However, despite acknowledging that phoning me does cause distress, you go on to say that you will continue to do so in 28 days. Please explain why this is considered acceptable by the Bank of Scotland.

 

As you are happy to quote OFT guidelines that you are supposedly abiding by, please can you also inform me why you, and your representatives, have repeatedly broken all of the following guidelines and not once answered why you are happy to do so. Please note I have limited my examples as to include them all would take several pages.

 

Section 2.2

b. leaving out or presenting information in such a way that it creates a false or misleading impression or exploits debtors' lack of knowledge.

Blair, Oliver and Scott, your representatives, have sent me letters threatening court action, and recently stating they will, under the Bank of Scotland’s instruction, be commencing legal proceedings in 7 days. You do not hold an enforceable agreement which precludes you or your agents from legal action.

Your colleague, Anne Gartshore, in one letter both admitted you do not have a signed agreement, and then went on to say you had provided a copy of the signed agreement.

g. ignoring or disregarding debtors' legitimate wishes in respect of when and where to contact them, for example, shift workers who ask not to be telephoned during certain times of the day.

Both the Bank of Scotland and Blair, Oliver and Scott have been informed on more than one occasion that I require everything to be in writing, and that to phone me is not acceptable. I have repeatedly informed you I will keep in contact via post, so you have no reason to continue phoning as lines of communication are still open.

h. asking or instructing debtors to make contact on premium rate telephone numbers.

Blair, Oliver and Scott, your in house collection agents, only give an 0870 number.

 

Section 2.4

b. falsely implying or stating that action can or will be taken when it legally cannot, for example, referring to bankruptcy or sequestration proceedings when the balance is too low to qualify for such proceedings or claiming a right of entry when no court order to this effect has been granted.

Blair, Oliver and Scott have, as I mentioned above, claimed they will be starting legal proceedings on their ‘clients’ behalf, when neither they nor the Bank of Scotland are entitled to do so.

 

Section 2.8

i. failing to investigate and/or provide details as appropriate, when a debt is queried or disputed, possibly resulting in debtors being wrongly pursued.

Under both a Subject Access Request, and the Civil Procedure Rules, the Bank of Scotland and Blair, Oliver and Scott respectively have been asked for a copy of the original agreement, not the illegible application you have so far sent. Neither of these requests under either the SAR or CPR has been fulfilled, and the information requested that is pertinent to the account has not been supplied.

k.not ceasing collection activity whilst investigating a reasonably queried or disputed debt.

I feel this is rather self explanatory given the contents of your letter, and the previous ones from your colleagues.

 

These are simply a few of the guidelines you and your representatives have seen fit to ignore. Please do not attempt to cover the harassment that the Bank of Scotland is plainly happy to endorse, by quoting that you work in conjunction with OFT guidelines, when it is very clear you do not.

 

I would also like to add at this point that you state you are working ‘in accordance with strict Ofcom rulings’, and as such are limited to one verbal contact a day. As I have informed your company before, I keep a log of all calls received. Please inform me why, if you are bound to follow Ofcom rulings, did your staff phone 3 times on the 3rd February, twice speaking to me, and being told to write on both occasions) and once leaving a silent message (another contravention of Ofcom’s rules). These calls have been recorded. I have other calls following a similar pattern relating to my other Bank of Scotland account, which I am not including here, so this is quite obviously a regular occurrence for your company.

In addition to this, as you are fully aware I consider this harassment, and am willing to keep open lines of communication in other ways, I have no doubt that you are violating Section 127 of the Communications Act 2003. Under this section Improper use of public electronic communications network’ it states :

 

(2) A person is guilty of an offence if, for the purpose of causing annoyance, inconvenience or needless anxiety to another, he—

© persistently makes use of a public electronic communications network.

As you are well aware that I will not discuss financial matters over the phone, and have been informed of this both in writing and on the phone on more than one occasion, I can only assume your reasons for phoning are now in order to cause the above; this includes needless anxiety on the occasions where I have been told that regardless of the requests I have made for everything to be in writing, that phone calls will continue.

 

 

I also find it interesting that you refuse my charges of £5 a call as you have no contract which would allow me to charge you this. I see striking similarities in my complaint regarding the application you have sent, and your reasoning that as there is no valid signed contract there can not be a right to collect payment.

 

 

Moving on, I note that you have brushed off a good proportion of my complaint with a 4 line explanation of my concerns regarding the application sent to me. In addition to this, despite actually writing a letter to me that acknowledges the fact I will not contact you by phone, you give me a number to call in order to discuss the progress of it.

Lastly, you appear to have completely ignored my points regarding

· Your company’s deliberate actions of sending mail to a known old address

· The unlawful termination of my account following the issue of a faulty Default Notice

· The non-compliance with my original Subject Access Request

· The fact that in not keeping my agreement you have failed in your obligations to comply with the various anti money laundering regulations.

 

I trust these will be addressed promptly in writing, and you will not continue to ignore the points I have raised.

Edited by lexis200

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Well now.. Lexis, whilst I find your letter absolutely brilliant.. .worthy of an award in fact.. the following quote just was too much and I have splurted coffee just about everywhere.. Nice one. :D:D

 

hehe:D I did kind of feel I was writing the whole thing just so I could say that:D

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Perhaps you can say you don't have the signed agreement but presumably a copy of what they would have signed will suffice?:rolleyes:

 

If I didn't think it would backfire on me I would love to have included that:)

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hey JRP:)

 

Sounds like you're at almost exactly the same point now!

 

Iqor have recently replied saying they are checking with their clients and will hold fire until they hear from them:D

 

I can't see a DCA anywhere who will be willing to hold onto this account TBH, so I don't think we've got too much of an issue there (which you don't either it seems:))

 

Not sure where to go now though. I don't want to just leave it as I want closure for personal reasons, but I don't fancy the idea of keeping this farce up for much longer.

 

You could always try invoicing them. I did for phone calls on OH's other BoS account, but they wouldn't pay as there wasn't a contract... I have pointed out the irony of that statement to them, given the situation we're in, but haven't had a response yet.

 

Lexis:)

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Well fat lot of good that did me!

 

Got a letter back from yet another person, as they are seemingly incapable of sending out more than one letter per person.

 

So, I had a bit of a re-group, and I've decided I'll get one last letter off to them, then either ignore them or just send them a list of my so far unanswered letters each time they write (obviously unless it's something that needs a proper response).

 

The thing is, if it would get rid of them I'd offer 10% or so as a f+f. I know I don't owe them a bean, but quite frankly just to have that weight lifted for a bit would be nice. Oh, plus I'm going to reclaim a load of charges later on:D The problem with a f+f though is that I think it's going to be hard to suddenly change tack and say I'll pay them something when I've flat refused to entertain that over the last few months, and said more than once that they can get knotted if they want any money. It's a conundrum:rolleyes:

 

Anyhoo, this is the letter I've done - I know it's long but I'm not intending sending another (or at least not one that takes more than 5 minutes of cutting and pasting!)

 

I am in receipt of your letter dated 7th April, received on the 11th April. Thank you for the unusually prompt response.

 

I must first ask if you are all trained to ignore questions raised and simply state the bank’s mantra over and over again, regardless of if the contents is actually correct or relevant?

 

In order to show what I mean, I will take your letter paragraph by paragraph, stating your answers and my actual points. I will end with a list of direct questions (again) for your convenience and so you can not possibly mis-read what is being asked. Please note, if I receive another letter that ignores or twists my points I will be sending your response to Trading Standards, as I am quite frankly amazed by your companies continued reluctance to address my concerns with any degree of interest or accuracy.

 

You wrote You state the bank has not provided you with the documents you have requested.

Correct, you have not. I am still not in possession of a legible signed contract complete with prescribed terms. I do however have more than one copy of an illegible application form void of any prescribed terms, thank you.

 

You wrote You are unhappy that Blair, Oliver and Scott have advised they will take legal action against you, when you feel they are unable to do so when said documents have not been provided.

Actually I’m more bemused than unhappy, as I am well aware that neither you nor Blair, Oliver and Scott have any way of starting legal action unless you provide me with my signed, legible agreement complete with prescribed terms.

 

You wrote If I may explain; you have now been provided with a copy of your application (credit agreement), and a copy of the current and historic terms and condition for the above agreement. This fulfils your request. Although you have disputed the legibility of the credit agreement, we feel it is fit for purpose.

I should point out, simply writing '(credit agreement)' as a description of an application form, and thereafter referring to it as 'the credit agreement', does not somehow actually turn it into a credit agreement. However, that aside, I do concede that yes, you have now (some 7 months after my original request under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 was made) supplied me with all the documents that the CCA1974 requires. However, under a Civil Procedure Rules request, and a Subject Access Request you were required to send me a copy of any signed contracts, ie, my original, legible, signed agreement, complete with prescribed terms and conditions. I feel I am repeating this phrase over and over, and yet you and your colleagues somehow still manage very well to misconstrue the meaning each and every time. What you have sent is not the above; it is an illegible application form, void of any prescribed terms.

 

Whether or not the bank feels the legibility is not an issue, the simple fact is that in law it is. As I have stated before to one of the many colleagues of yours who have written – you may feel you are right, however I have legislation laid down that confirms I am right. All you need to do to stop me questioning this is to send a legible signed contract, complete with prescribed terms. It would seem like a simple way to bring this to a head, but perhaps the bank prefers these missives you send, full of mis-information and statements of the banks' feelings of being right.

 

You wrote However, may I advise that we are not obligated to provide documents. You remain liable for the balance on the account, and you are responsible for repaying the outstanding balance.

Please show me what part of a Subject Access Request, or for that matter a request under the Civil Procedure Rules, states that you are not obligated to provide documents that I have specifically requested? Also, if you are sure you have sent all you need to in order to show I am liable for the balance, why do you then take the time to say you are not obligated to send anything? That seems like a rather odd remark.

 

With regards to the remaining balance, you may be interested in some figures. I have calculated that some £5,555 has been used since the opening of the account, and some £5,885 has been repaid. Around £1655 of interest has been applied, but unfortunately without a valid contract this has been incorrectly claimed, and therefore should not be included on the balance. To show this, I would like to bring your attention to a quote from Sir Andrew Morritt, Vice Chancellor in Wilson v First County Trust Ltd [2001] EWCA Civ 633. He said at paragraph 26 that in the case of an unenforceable agreement (which is precisely what you have for me):- The creditor must…be taken to have made a voluntary disposition, or gift, of the loan monies to the debtor. The creditor had chosen to part with the monies in circumstances in which it was never entitled to have them repaid;

Also, in the case of Dimond v Lovell [2000] UKHL 27, in which Lord Hoffmann said at page 1131:- Parliament intended that if a consumer credit agreement was improperly executed, then subject to the enforcement powers of the court, the debtor should not have to pay.

 

You also seem to have forgotten my rather important point regarding a faulty Default Notice and your subsequant termination of my account. In doing this you lost all rights to claim the balance and as such if you had an enforceable agreement (which you do not), you would now be limited to claiming the arrears shown at the time of the default.

 

In addition to the above, I have calculated the unlawful charges on this account, and with contractual interest they come to circa £1,155. By my calculations you are not only chasing an unenforceable debt that you have lost all right to claim on, but one on which Bank of Scotland actually owes me a not inconsiderable sum.

 

You wrote For the performance of the contract it is necessary that your telephone contact details are retained until the outstanding balance has been repaid. This being said, I regret to inform you that I am unable to guarantee that all future correspondence will be in writing only.

Leaving aside the fact you do not have a contract (and as your own colleague stated the lack of a contract was a bar to you paying the invoice I recently provided you with, I rather feel this proves my point), please be aware that I will not be repaying any balance as you are not entitled to reclaim it. Please also be aware it will be a massive waste of your time, and further fuel for harassment claims should you continue to phone, as I will not discuss this over the phone.

 

You wrote As previously explained by my colleague, in line with Ofcom rulings we are limited to a certain number of calls a day, and unlimited attempts at contact if there is no response. If the customer refuses to discuss the account with us, this is not classed as verbal contact.

Firstly, Michael King wrote that it was not classed as a verbal contact if security was refused. Your definition seems to be a little different, but I’m sure that is an honest mistake and certainly not yet another attempt to mislead me. Secondly, as I stated in my letter to Michael King, I did speak to two of your agents on two occasions on the same day, both times going through security and telling them to write. You seem to have ignored this in your response, and still seem to be under the illusion that you work within Ofcom’s rulings.

 

You wrote However, you account is currently being monitored by our Customer Priority Team…who take individual ownership.

I live in hope that this will be the case, but rather suspect that in line with previous form from the Bank of Scotland that my complaint will be sent to you, but dealt with by yet another person who doesn’t read what is in front of them. I hope I stand corrected on this account and actually get a sensible reply that addresses what I have written, but again, I sadly have no doubt that all issues will be broadly avoided whilst you tout the banks feelings regarding the legislation you have managed to conveniently ignore.

 

You wrote The account has not yet been passed to Blair, Oliver & Scott. However, it will be passed to them if the account accrues seven months of arrears. The account is currently four months in arrears.

If this is the case then why are they sending letters informing me of legal action for their ‘clients’ the Bank of Scotland? Surely not another misleading letter from you and your representatives?

 

You wrote As there is no valid dispute, may I advise that you set up an arrangement to clear the arrears on the above account…

Until you send the document I have requested, no. I should make it very clear though that should the document turn up now, I would have to question why it was not forthcoming for either a Subject Access Request or a request under the Civil Procedure Rules.

 

In order to save my time, as I am thoroughly bored with writing to you constantly as a direct result of yours and your colleague’s inability to answer simple questions, I am copying the bullet pointed questions asked in my last letter rather than go into detail about them again. Until I have a reasoned response to each and every one, any reply to your letters will be a copy of the questions I require answers to, or I will simply ignore your correspondence. Either way, further generic ramblings that answer nothing will not be dignified with a personal response, but rather the templated kind your company clearly very much favours.

 

For your information, the unanswered points were regarding:

 

· The non-compliance with my original Subject Access Request.

· Your company’s deliberate actions of sending mail to a known old address.

· The unlawful termination of my account following the issue of a faulty Default Notice.

· The fact that in not keeping my agreement you have failed in your obligations to comply with the various anti money laundering regulations.

 

I am not going to include the letters that state these questions. You have them already, and frankly as I am yet to receive a letter from the Bank of Scotland that shows more than the vaguest allusions to my issues, I am somewhat unwilling to assist you by including them.

 

However, so that I have one less letter to write to you, I will now add to these previous questions with:

 

· Why I have had the threat of legal proceedings by Blair, Oliver & Scott when you have apparently not yet passed the account to them, and when you have absolutely no legal merit to any action?

· Why you have not responded to my statement that despite the Bank of Scotland apparently only following Ofcom’s rulings, you still managed to phone and speak to me twice on the same day?

· Why you seem to be deliberately mistaking my request for a legible, signed, valid contract complete with prescribed terms, for a request for an illegible application form?

· Why you have not answered or defended any of the examples I listed in my previous letter regarding the many and varied OFT guidelines that you and your representatives Blair, Oliver & Scott have broken?

· Why you refuse to pay an invoice I have sent you for phone calls (after giving you fair warning this would happen) on the basis that there is no contract in place, but still insist on trying to elicit payment from me when you have no contract in place that would allow you to do so?

 

I will lastly state again that if you do not see fit to actually answer these questions rather than skirt around them (or completely ignore them), I will simply ignore your correspondence completely or will not be answering with anything more than my list of questions and points.

 

I trust this makes my position completely clear.

Edited by lexis200
cutting and pasting screwed up my formatting!

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Thanks all:) - do you think it's ok to send or has anyone got any amendments that might be useful?

 

Hello again underdog, long time no see! (mind you I've not been on much lately). I think you're right, as I really can't believe a professional company could be this inept without some hidden agenda to work to. If it wasn't for all the support on CAG I'd have given up ages ago, so I guess it's a method that will work for a lot of their dodgy accounts when people are going it alone.

 

I can understand that they can't/won't just give up - that would only serve to set a precedence that they could really not afford, but for goodness sake, why not answer a simple question properly? Even if it's not what you want to hear, if they have a proper answer to something it's better than the rubbish they spout at the moment!

 

I'll aim to get that out tomorrow some time, and give it one last finger crossing that it'll do something. I doubt it somehow, given past performances and the lack of anyone capable of answering a question, but it's still worth hoping!

 

Lexis:)

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hey CB:)

 

Yep, I have no doubt at all that it will do bu**er all to help me, but at least they can't say they don't have all the information!

 

I had wondered about sending stuff higher up the chain, so I think I'll do what you suggest and either send direct to the top man, or copy him in and send it to both people.

 

Now to find out the name of the CEO...

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  • 4 weeks later...

Right, I haven't sent that letter yet - I've been mulling for a while (and doing some actual work:eek:).

 

I'm just wondering if it's worth it?

 

I think we can all agree at most it will get another vague answer that does bugger all for me, so I'm actually considering a shorter one (I know, not like me at all:D)

 

What I was wondering about doing is just writing, put the main points as simply and as legally correct as I can, then as a complete gesture of goodwill, offering them the arrears payable at the time of the default (that's the £59 odd - and obviously it would be my dad/partner/bloke on the street who is actually making the offer, not me!), on the proviso that the default is removed and the account marked as settled.

 

I know they've got sod all that they can use, but I'm just thinking that it might be worth a punt just to get this one sorted.

 

Or do you think that would just give them added vigour for being obstructive (by making them think I'm backing down)?

 

So, should I veto the first one and just send a short, to the point, accept this or leave me alone one, or should I carry on with the original one, sent to the top dog, and then maybe at a later date (like when it's ignored:rolleyes:) go with a shorter one? If I did this I'd need to take out the bit about not responding to them in the long letter, otherwise I'll look like a bit of a lemon.

 

Any thoughts anyone?

 

Lexis:)

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Very interesting CB - He's very good isn't he??!!

 

I'm going to have a little think about this and have a word with OH later (it is his bleedin' account after all:rolleyes:).

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Hi Lexis

 

2nd Q is that I have got one company called "Contract checker" and they will check my agreements, wether unenforcable or not, for free. They will only charge if I need them to write of my debt. Should I use them or DIY. thanks

 

Hi

 

Personally I feel you can do it yourself, so why use someone who will end up putting you back into a debt if/when you manage to finally be free. However, as I said that is a personal view, and as you can see from my threads (and pretty much everyone else's) it's not exactly plain sailing to work this all through yourself. It can be done though with all the help on here:)

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Don't give up on this one Lexis, send them your excellent letter, you know what they say "never pay a blackmailer". Consumer Protection Regulations 2008 - quote from Susan Edwards, Head of Credit Investigations and Enforcement OFT;

 

Breach of Reg 5 of the CPRs is a criminal offence under Reg 9 and can also be enforced under part 8 of the Enterprise Act 2002. Under section 21A 0f the Enterprise Act where an application for an Enforcement Order is made the court may require the Respondent 'to provide evidence of the accuracy of any factual claim' (such a claim that a debtor has signed a credit agreement).

 

In addition it should be noted that threats to take action that cannot be taken is listed as one of the factors that wll be considered in assessing agressive practices in Regulation 7(2) of the CPRs.

 

Thanks miss muppet:D

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I'm happy to try it if it would work cleo - not sure of the implications in doing it though (if any)

 

I have to say, they've not actually said 'we have not terminated the account', they're just ignoring the situation entirely:rolleyes:

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Hello! I thought you'd dropped off the map!

 

I'm really pleased you had a good result on Monday - now go get those bankers:)

 

I SAR'd Halifax but I did get the work Blair had done included in it as well (well some of it anyway).

 

What I find really odd is that there are two BOS accounts, but they only seem interested in chasing one of them - I can't remember the last time I heard anything about the other one. Ironically this one that they're going after is the one they have really screwed themselves on, as the other one is just unenforceable but they haven't sent a rubbish DN with it:rolleyes:

 

What I'm finding amusing at the moment is getting a parachute account set up. I think between the two of us we've excluded most banks:D

 

Lexis:)

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Morning:) All toodly pip today I hope?:)

 

Erm, eggs and citibank are a bit of an issue - we're in the middle of a slanging match with both seperately..:oops:

 

Any more ideas?:D

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Thanks CB - I need a debit card though (too many instances of being in Tesco's and having to leave stuff on the checkout - I don't even get embarrassed by it any more:rolleyes:)

 

Any more thoughts anyone?

 

Who are Abbey in bed with - I could try them?

 

I haven't actually ever opened a bank account so I don't know what checks go into it (my dad was a branch manager at Lloyds so we all just got accounts done by him when we were born and I've never changed it...), could I be scuppered on some by having bad credit?

 

I can honestly say my bank account has always been ok - I've got an authorised overdraft which I used to go into each month (haven't used it for a while), but never over, and to my recollection I've never had a charge from the bank for anything. Would this go in my favour, or do they look at the whole credit rating thing?

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That's an interesting idea. It's pretty much how I use my debit card anyway (always check my balance before going out!).

 

Cheers:)

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*******

 

on a seperate note, i have the co-op cashminder account, it works for me as i can shop where i want and i know exactly what i have with the online service, also has telephone which i dont use that much - i find this is fab for me too

 

 

*****

 

 

Nope, Co-op are my pet hate - actually over and above every other creditor, even the really skanky ones:D

 

They were my smallest debt by a long shot, but wanted the largest payment (nearly 10x what I offered!), and when they got it they carried on adding interest!!! Barstewards. At least the others are open in their crappiness, co-op hide behind the whole 'ethical banking' bit. Ethical bank my bottom.

 

Anyhoo, rant over - glad you're back on the radar:)

 

With still getting statements, I have to say OH still is as well on this account. The really weird thing is though that they keep showing credits to the account...he hasn't paid since July'ish last year!

 

We have no idea what's going on there - I must remember to put that in the letter (which I still haven't sent:oops:)

 

It is strange when they don't hassle you isn't it? You forget about it for ages and suddenly just think 'I haven't heard from x for a while'.

 

What are they up to?...

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