ANPR may not be legal

[JonCris]

Yes after all this time it may not be legal

 

This also applies to private ANPR at places like supermarkets as you have to know to what use they are putting your data & IMHO just to claim 'for security purpose' or parking enforcement or to discourage drivers from nicking our petrol just doesn't hack it..........why.........because unlike the old video cameras ANPR is about identifying you immediately through the DVLA data base whether you have done anything or not......Remember this data isn't immediately discarded when you leave it's actually stored by them. ......for how long only they can say....it could be donkeys years

 

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/11/30/anpr_legality_debate/

[lamma]

goodness that is an old story and was a puff piece at the time.

""as these cameras collect personal data on every car that passes,"

 

so a car can have 'personal data' - rubbish. not even for Herbie is this true.

 

the fallacy that car number plates are personal data is a dangerous one, and one the CPS wish to continue is they can use it as one their standard bogus reasons for attempting to deny disclosure in speeding cases.

 

Re CCTV and PPC parking - most often the PPCs registration with the ICO will list "crime prevention and detection", that is IF they have a a DP registration.

Problem they have with that is that debt collection is a civil matter NOT a criminal one - so they are operating outside the DPA IMV.

[green_and_mean]

Petrol stations and PPCs do not generally use ANPR as the technology is pointless without being linked to a database and the evidence provided would not be admissible without cctv footage. They usually just assertain your registration from the cctv footage.

The whole country on the other hand is covered by ANPR cameras which are used for monitoring the public by the Police/govt bodies as they go about their business, they are all linked to a central computer which the Police control which is another reason I refuse to drive a car.

[JonCris]

More & more do use ANPR Morrisons for example & if they don't link to the subjects personal details what's the point......why not retain loop video if it's purely for security purposes

 

For security purposes there has to be some measure of storage otherwise if the crime is not discovered for some time after the vehicle has left then the ANPR is pointless

[emsgeorge]

Show me a private system that links DIRECTLY to the DVLA.

 

ANPR footage (the actual FOOTAGE), as like any other CCTV footage used by business, is covered under DPA - its up to the company concerned to decide how long they wish to keep it, as long as its not too long. As green & mean says, without actual footage / plate and overview shot, then the number plate is as secure and admissable as me typing into an excel database your reg plate number and a few random times.

[green_and_mean]

ANPR the 'R' stands for recognition! If the operator does not have a list of VRMs how can it recognise it? The Police/DVLA system has a list of vehicles which are automatically matched to the car passing the camera and if 'wanted' will alert the operator. What PPCs use is a system that 'records' VRMs which although similar is slightly different, it cannot for example record the make or colour of the vehicle.

[lamma]

Sorry but your point is fallacious and illogical IMV.

it 'recognises' the characters in the index number in just the same way that OCR software can read scanned documents. and yet this software does not contain a list of every word possible. Nor will it ever as it is not needed. Just as contact with the DVLA is not needed to 'read' a number plate.

Rather like the way you read and recognise a number plate without having access to the DVLA.

[emsgeorge]

ANPR is simply a computer linked to a camera pointed at a road, and zoomed into the height that number plates are usually.

 

The camera feeds the info to the computer, and a recognition engine looks for the black numbers / letters against a white reflective plate. The software simply reads this number and letter combination, and then feeds it to another program.

 

The police and enforcement authorities (dvla etc) use it in 2 ways. It either is used on a PNC link, where by broadband / radio data link asks pnc to feed back the data, or the computer looks it up on a database - which has been exported from the PNC records earlier in the day, burnt to disc / Wifi transferred to the vehicle (still in trial stages). All this info consists of is a simple text file - which holds plate data. Nothing more. The files are insurance, tax and markers. Insurance file is no insurance held, Tax is no current tax disc held (min 14 days between lapse of disc and putting onto this file) and markers - stolen, drugs, wanted info etc. All the computer will give to the operator is the pic of the vehicle, the decoded reg plate (what the computer has interpreted it as), and the type of the file its matched it with.

 

The PNC link (which is only used by 4 forces as far as I know) communicates as I said above, and asks for vehicle info held on PNC. It again only flashes up markers on the vehicle, and some info like colour etc, and registered keeper if needed. It cant tell if the picture of the car is red, yet pnc is blue. Thats up to the officer to work out !. This type of link is very hungry on data, and it takes about 4 seconds to come back with the data. Still, if you are parked up on a motorway bridge with an ANPR camera, 4 seconds is a long time.

 

PPC's have the same type of cameras, same type of kit, but as Green and Mean says, all the camera does is record the time and date of a vehicle entering - works out its reg, and saves that info to a database, with a snapshot image of the capture. Same happens when the vehicle leaves.

 

The PPC then downloads the data (usually from the computer being in a metal cabinet near the cameras) using a broadband link to their 'head office' (kitchen), and match up the 2 databases. Easy in excel.

Any vehicles over the 'limit' are pushed to dvla for reg keeper info.

For those companies that have not got the electronic access, a laborious process of getting the info now starts .....

 

So, for those of you who seem to think that the PPC's cameras are somehow directly linked to DVLA - they are not. The PPC's have to manually ask for the reg keeper info - all be it if they have electronic access, all they have to do is cut and paste it onto an email to the dvla.

 

As for how long they keep the data - I would expect they would find it hard to keep the 'overview' shots for more than a few days - there is no possibility of an 'parking offence' to come to light days after you have left. They might justify longer on saying they would use the data if another customer complains that their car was hit by you etc ...

[patdavies]

The camera feeds the info to the computer, and a recognition engine looks for the black numbers / letters against a white reflective plate.

 

It's a little more complex than that.

 

It can work with yellow background for rear plates, Eire plates and any plate from the Schengen area. It does have some trouble with discrimination on the pre-1973 silver on black plates.

 

The issue here is not that ANPR is illegal (as a VRM is not personal data without the DVLA), but the use to which the data is put once gathered.

[JonCris]

I don't have a problem with police enforcement ANPR. When fitted to a patrol car they serve as a very good tool in catching villians who often drive without insurance

 

My concern is those used by private companies & the use it's put to

[green_and_mean]

I don't have a problem with police enforcement ANPR. When fitted to a patrol car they serve as a very good tool in catching villians who often drive without insurance

 

My concern is those used by private companies & the use it's put to

 

Why they need to record the movement of every vehicle on the roads is another matter!! Currently reading around 50 million plates per day and storing your journey details for 5 years the Police ANPR system is Big Brother gone crazy.

 

For those who say if you have done nothing wrong you will be ok....

 

John Catt, an 80 year old pensioner at the time and his daughter Linda (with no criminal record between them) - were stopped, had their vehicle searched under section 44 of the Terrorism act by City of London Police and were threatened with arrest if they refused to answer police questions. After making formal police complaints, it was discovered they were stopped after their vehicle had been picked up by roadside ANPR CCTV cameras, after a marker had been placed against their vehicle in the PNC database as a result of them being spotted near a demonstration in Brighton. Critics of police state policies highlight the fact that John and Linda Catt had been been suspected of no crime, however using mass surveillance infrastructure they were targeted due to their beileved associations.

[JonCris]

I agree gm. & whilst I'm not one of those idiots that continually say "if you've nowt to fear you've now't to lose I don't mind them recording my movements if it helps combat real crime.

 

What worries me that in todays atmsophere is to what other uses it could be put. Christ we have local councils using anti terror laws to combat what......dog pooing

[lamma]

one the bugbears of ANPR in patrol cars is the stops they generate under the cry of "the is car is not insured". sorry guys but its the drivers who are insured not the cars. this is a fundamental flaw in the system IMV.

[johno1066]

one the bugbears of ANPR in patrol cars is the stops they generate under the cry of "the is car is not insured". sorry guys but its the drivers who are insured not the cars. this is a fundamental flaw in the system IMV.

 

Ah, at last, someone who understands ANPR and the associated problems that ensue.