DCA chasing English CC debt in France

[dannyboy660]

European Commission - European Judicial Network - Legal order - France

 

or

 

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/site/en/oj/2001/l_012/l_01220010116en00010023.pdf

 

A lot will depend on your own personal circumstances. In such situations there is no 'one size fits all' and there are several things that need to be considered.

 

There's no shortage of stuff on the internet and the above links may help a little. An EEO is only appropriate if a CCJ already exists, other than that the new European small claim procedures MAY make it possible to get a judgment against you. There are several ways to defend and bring the whole thing grinding to a halt - a lot will depend on how co-operative you intend to be.

 

All the best.

[dannyboy660]

http://www.dca.gov.uk/consult/smallclaims/pdf/procedure.pdf

 

Quite a long boring read, but it may be of some use to you.

[dannyboy660]

Did I post this one???

 

http://www.dca.gov.uk/consult/smallclaims/pdf/procedure.pdf

 

Long and boring, but there may be something useful to you in amongst it all.

 

Apologies if I've already posted it - I can't see it anywhere so I may have logged out before hitting "submit reply" Getting tired I think.......

[dannyboy660]

Dont forget that the "living costs/outgoings" has to include clothes,food,travel costs which our classed as essentials in life.

So if for example you pay £50 per month on food - that can easily be put down on the official form as £100 per month.

Ive never known anyone to be asked by a court to produce receipts from Tesco or anywhere...

So i hope you catch my drift here as to how it can all be easily exaggerated

 

That's a bit naughty Mr.T !!!

 

I hope you're not advocating that anyone should present a court with material inaccuracies??

[dannyboy660]

It's tricky one, but I don't think playing the waiting game would do any harm. I assume there's no CCJ on this ??

 

Someone has suggested requesting CCA - that's OK - but by doing so you are confirming your whereabouts and playing your ace card quite early, but then that would put you in a position to negotiate a favourable F&F, should you wish to do so. Everything would be stacked in your favour at the moment.

 

Personally, I'd wait and see. Taking legal action in this case could cost them a small fortune with no guarantee of anything at the end of it. They're probably just waiting for a response so the threats and bullying can begin for real.

 

A second opinion, anyone????............

[dannyboy660]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/90319-can-dca-pursue-someone.html

 

SCADPlus: European payment order procedure and measures to simplify and speed up small claims litigation: Green Paper

 

European Payment Order - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

You'll notice that the keyword which crops up time and again is 'uncontested'. If the claim is contested it becomes an incredibly long winded, complicated and expensive process for the litigant with no guarantee of success. I have always been under the impression it is more useful for small businesses, and a bit unwieldy for relatively small, unsecured consumer debt.

 

 

'Convention territory' may refer to area or member state(s) that have agreed to implement a particular piece of legislation which will become common in legal proceedings, depending on the context it's being used.

[dannyboy660]

I just found this

 

 

 

 

 

There are numerous annexes in the Regulation, filled to the brim with boxes and forms for one to tick, sign and complete. Brussels do, however, foresee the potential for disillusionment, and have put at the very top of the annexes:

Please ensure that you read the guidelines on the last page - they will help you to understand this form! (…

their exclamation mark, not mine.

)

Regulation (EC) No. 1896/2006, in essence, simplifies the procedure for recovery of uncontested claims (i.e. claims where there is no dispute over whether the money is owed or not, but where the debtor is unwilling or unable to pay) between Member States. A creditor will fill in the relevant application form, giving a number of details on the claim (e.g. details of the parties involved, amount of the claim, cause of action, brief description of evidence supporting the claim). The court will then issue a “payment notification” which informs the defendant about the claim and gives the defendant debtor an opportunity to lodge a statement of defence. If the defendant debtor lodges a statement of defence, the Order for Payment Procedure is automatically brought to an end and the matter is transferred to ordinary civil court proceedings. If he does not act, the court delivers the Order of Payment to the defendant debtor, requesting payment.

The Regulation comes into force in the UK (having opted in) on 12 December 2008

 

 

 

So reading between the lines, if I contest the claim then they cannot use a European Order for Payment (EOP) and the procedure would return to the DCA getting a CCJ in England to be able to enforce an EEO

 

 

 

And secondly, if the text above is true then the UK have not actually joined this convention and are not doing so until December 2008, so the DCA cannot untill December use the EOP

 

 

 

Opinions please.

 

 

It looks like you've found the very piece of text I've been searching for, but couldn't find.

 

You are correct, the legislation is not in place until the end of this year (and may still be further delayed).

 

If no CCJ currently exists they can do nothing other than ask you to pay. If you commence payments now thy will hold you to it until after December 2008, for obvious reasons.

 

The EPO is designed mainly for use by businesses, and unsecured consumer debt signed under CCA'74 in the UK is only covered if the action is uncontested. If you contest, the case is referred back to the UK civil court, and if you have been non-resident for 3+ years then it will more than likely be struck out.

 

That's the way I see it but I am NOT an expert - it's an opinion rather than a statement of fact.

[dannyboy660]

I think everything is stacked in your favour. You could try for a F&F, or just wait and see how things unfold. Either way, I think you're on fairly safe ground.

[dannyboy660]

That's the problem, it does change.

 

Originally the UK wouldn't take part at all because the EU wanted them to reduce the 'Limitations' to 3 years, in line with everyone else. This would also open the door to cross border lending and more competition. Of course, the UK financial sector were having none of it, and so there had to be caveats attached to keep everyone happy.

 

You can't make yourself bankrupt in UK unless you appear in person at the High Court within 3 years. Likewise, they can not make you bankrupt if you've been non-resident for 3 years and have declared so with HMRC, and so the enforcement options are invalid and the EPO is a bit toothless.

 

Complicated stuff, but keep watching.

[dannyboy660]

The next letter will probably be more bog-standard 'contact us or else' guff.

 

People in France and elsewhere have even had the home visit cards from Lowell.

 

If they can't be bothered to jump on a bus to Bradford, then they are hardly likely to come knocking on your door in Caen.

 

See how it goes.

[dannyboy660]

I am guessing the only way they can confirm that I live there is if I confirm it myself to them, or they call me and I confirm it on the phone,

 

 

I think that sums it up very well.

 

That applies whether you are in UK or anywhere. Being Call Centre based they can only begin their quest for enrichment on information which may no longer be correct.

There's nothing they enjoy more than a letter or 'phone call which confirms you are receiving their correspondence, and you are who they think you are. Returning the letter unopened is an option as at some point they will have to consider if it's all worthwhile.

 

Bon Chance.

[dannyboy660]

Hi Hardnut32,

 

I'm Ok on the theory, but there's no substitute for experience

 

Keep an eye on the relevant EU legislation, they have a habit of moving the goal posts from time to time. If you are going for F&F on your terms, I would suggest you try to get it over and done with before December or you may be in the firing line for the legislative change. Make sure you have irrefutable proof the debt is settled because it won't stop UK DCA's pursuing you.

 

 

All the best.

[dannyboy660]

 

Legally what chance have they of pursuing me through the french system?

 

Does this mean that NatWest cant invoke the new procedures in December 2008?

 

Your opinions would be greatly appreciated.

 

In my opinion,

 

Legally, none whatsoever at the moment. You signed (presumably) CCA'74, a contract governed by English law. The French court has no jurisdiction.

 

They are putting the pressure on to get a confirmed address, probably in time for December as you suspect. Using a French address adds to the psychological battle hoping you will crack, on their terms. Most of the main players have an 'office', or at least a PO box in several EU countries popular with the Brits.

[dannyboy660]

Generally speaking, I think we are broadly in agreement the way things stand at the moment, but remember I am not an expert.

 

Judgment by default at your previous UK address is a possibility, but worthless because it has not followed the necessary procedures of EU 1348/2000 for service of documents. It's only likely to affect you if you return to the UK.

 

Phew, complicated stuff !!!!

 

Why the sudden rise in EU and overseas posts, is everybody leaving the sinking ship ????

[dannyboy660]

You may have already found this yourself by now, but just in case you missed it http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=COM:2002:0746:FIN:EN:PDF

 

 

A very interesting read. I'll post it on the "jurisdiction" thread as well because I'm sure it will be useful to others in the future. Notice how some countries will put a ceiling on the amount that can be claimed. This is a valid argument if the claimant is using a currency other than Euros

[dannyboy660]

A bit more info regarding the ceiling thing.

 

It seems the original creditor can pursue you for the full amount, and in most cases the ceiling would not apply if they have done things 'by the book', and have the paperwork to prove it. They must have taken all steps to reach an amicable agreement, and must accept any reasonable offer of repayment either in full, or part.

 

A third party however, like a DCA or Purchaser, in most Countries will be affected by the ceiling (if one exists). You probably noticed that in some places they are limited to just a couple of K (Euros). This, I am told, is to dissuade creditors from ditching their bad debts too quickly and claiming tax relief, throwing you to the wolves etc. It also means there is often very little profit to be made from buying bad debt and then bullying people. Creditors are therefore far more careful about who they lend unsecured money to, and people who find themselves in poo creek without a paddle are protected from the parasitic element of the financial sector, because the court is aware the debt was bought for a tiny fraction of it's face value........One of the great stumbling blocks for UK acceptance of the regulations, as they obviously make huge amounts of money from debt. I'm sure you get the picture.

 

I'm also informed that there are few EU States nowadays where it is not possible to take recovery action of some sort. That's the bad news, but the good news is they would have to employ lawyers in the State where the credit was granted and contract signed, and the State of the debtors residency, and then they battle it out. It is an extremely long, expensive process and rarely (if ever) used for unsecured consumer debt on a basic contract. So, all in all, I think we're probably right to say to you are on safe ground.

 

It seems Napoleon may not have been so bad after all ......at least we had Wellington to keep us poor and oppressed on behalf of the aristocracy....

[dannyboy660]

Good morning dannyboy660

Thank-you for finding this information out. Hopefully I'll be safe over here in Spain.

There aren't any CCJ's on any of the debts and now I've been on this forum I know to fight against them no matter what.

 

That's excellent news.

 

I'm glad you don't already have CCJ's because that could have been a major obstacle further down the line.

 

all the best....and go get 'em

[dannyboy660]

A good policy. Do not rely on a DCA to tell the truth.

 

I'll second that.

 

It's not in the interests of a DCA/Purchaser to tell you the truth, so CAG should be the first port of call.

[dannyboy660]

Can I just say thank you for your hard work in explaining in brief the document you found in your earlier post ...

 

Actually, I went through a very similar thing several years ago......even up to the brink of trying to make myself bankrupt in UK whilst wandering around in Europe, so I picked up a bit of how things work. The fact I had 'residency' in several States (through my work), and had been away for more than three years, made it impossible and the whole thing just ended up in limbo......until I returned to UK.

 

Things are changing all the time, as you now know, but I still take an interest in all this stuff.

 

Best wishes to you, and gerona. I'm sure you'll be fine with a bit of help from the CAGggers.

[dannyboy660]

I've never had any dealings with CQ, but I would imagine this is just a standard automated letter that everyone gets??

[dannyboy660]

If I am not the only one this has happened to does this not go against many of the earlier posts that seemed to say that if you were no longer resident in the Uk and had no UK address you could not have a CCJ enetered against you?

 

You are not the only one, just one of the unlucky ones, methinks.

 

One of the first things you'll find when going through the County Court claim procedures is that the defendant must be resident in England or Wales http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/ex301.pdf small claims, and as far as I can see that applies to other tracks too http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/ex305_e0907.pdf but all that is soon to change. Scotland have their own procedures. DCA's/Creditors will issue very convincing documents to some people to get an admission as gerona can verify. The High Court however, is a completely different thing and if they become involved, then you are into the realms of cross border bankruptcy

 

"Under the provisions of section 265 (1) of The Insolvency Act 1986 you are able to petition for bankruptcy if you are either:

 

(a) domiciled in England and Wales,

 

(b) personally present in England and Wales on the day on which the petition is presented, or

 

at any time in the period of 3 years ending with that day -

 

(i) have been ordinarily resident, or has had a place of residence, in England and Wales, or

 

(ii) have carried on business in England and Wales.

 

However, you need to be aware that Article 3 of the EC Regulation on Insolvency Proceedings 2000 is applied to and can override the provisions of section 265(1) IA86. Therefore if your centre of main interest is within another EU member state (apart from Denmark) the provisions of section 265(1) IA86 would not apply to you and the English court would be limited in their jurisdiction to open bankruptcy proceedings. You may wish to contact the High Court for information as to whether they would be able to make the bankruptcy order in your case. The telephone number for the High Court is +44(0)20 7947 6000.

 

If you do not live in England or Wales, you must present your bankruptcy petition in the High Court. The bankruptcy petition must be presented either by yourself in person, or an agent acting on your behalf, eg a solicitor. If you appoint an agent to act on your behalf, you may need to grant them power of attorney - please contact the High Court for further details. Following the making of a bankruptcy order, you will need to provide information to the Official Receiver and complete a booklet and other documents, as well as possibly attending for an interview. Unfortunately, these documents cannot be completed before a bankruptcy order is made, and you cannot pre-book an appointment. However, if you explain your circumstances to the Official Receiver, ie you are only in the country for a limited period, he will try to fix an appointment for you as soon as possible. If you appoint an agent to act on your behalf under a power of attorney, that agent could be required to attend for interview at the Official Receiver's office on your behalf.

 

Any assets in any part of the world fall into your bankruptcy estate. However, the trustee may encounter problems selling foreign assets if he is not 'recognised' in a foreign jurisdiction as having power to sell them. The trustee may require co-operation from you and also, he may need to apply for a court order in the foreign country to deal with the asset.

 

The Insolvency Service does produce a range of information leaflets regarding bankruptcy, which are available on our website (www.insolvency.gov.uk under 'Our information leaflets/booklets' as follows:

 

Dealing with Debt - How to petition for your own bankruptcy : Information on how to make yourself bankrupt

 

A Guide to Bankruptcy : This guide tells you what happens if you are made bankrupt in England and Wales and about some of the alternatives to bankruptcy

 

Can my Bankruptcy be cancelled : Information on how the court may annul (cancel) your bankruptcy order

 

What will happen to my home : Information on your home when bankruptcy occurs

 

When will my bankruptcy end : Information on discharge from bankruptcy

 

What will happen to my bank account: Information on banking facilities when bankruptcy occurs

 

What happens when you are interviewed by the Official Receivers? : Information for bankrupts and directors of companies in compulsory liquidation about the work of the Official Receiver

 

I hope this is helpful.

The Insolvency Service is constantly trying to improve the quality of its service, and therefore we would like to ask you to spare a few moments of your time to complete a customer comment card which is available at Customer Comments Card . Your opinions will help us to improve the service which we provide to you. May I thank you in advance for your co-operation.

Yours sincerely

 

Central Enquiry Line Officer

Technical Section

The Insolvency Service

21 Bloomsbury Street

London

WC1B 3QW

DX: 120875 Bloomsbury 6DX

Tel: 020 7291 6895

Fax: 020 7291 6892"

 

I don't know anything much about the Civil Jurisdiction and Judgements Act 1982 but I'm willing to wager there will be something in there which makes allowances for the leglislation which has been passed at European level since 1982, including all the earlier links in this thread. This is where one of the legal experts could step in and clarify things, but there are so many different aspects to each individual case it is a minefield....there are magic words to consider such as "3 years", "main centre of interests" and "uncontested".

 

As for the issue of service of documents, in the UK it is usual to use the Royal Snail, but whilst resident in France the French civil law says you have a legal obligation to respond to documents served to you in person by a 'Hussier' (as someone pointed out earlier), but it doesn't mention the Snail. So is that a valid form of defence??

 

It's complicated stuff....far too complex for comfort really, but as in the UK a lot will depend on if you have grounds to defend, and ultimately on how co-operative you intend to be.

 

You could try your own thread with your own situation if you like, but be warned there DCA's reading these threads so nothing too specific, and responses to overseas questions can be a bit a patchy sometimes. Brits don't like to see others leaving the sinking the ship and getting on.

 

All the best.

[dannyboy660]

After posting yesterday I later noticed http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/133975-income-tax-ni-owed.html had already been started.

 

Whilst I don't mind having a crack at unsecured 'not very serious consequences' debt, I'm not at all confident when it comes to Tax and N.I., especially as the High Court may already be involved.

 

I wish you all the very best, but that one is way out of my depth.

[dannyboy660]

They got my mums address from my UK bank (not the one I owe to) as I gave the bank mums address as a 'UK correspondance address' when I moved to France. Mum has my french address, and newcastle are asking for it as they needed to transfer our entitlements to France (CAF) E106 etc. The new owners of the UK house do not have my french address.

 

 

It's important to remember here that 'Crown' debts, i.e Tax/N.I/Benefits/CSA/CT etc are treated differently to unsecured credit, by every Country in the EU.

 

If it's a private DCA chasing a CC or similar unsecured credit on CCA'74 (not 2006), they won't have a leg to stand on IF they traced you through the HMG system as is now prevalent but being "sold" to private companies, in the UK . ( I can hear "Rule Britannia" )

 

If you owe the Taxpayer, you will have to pay it (imo), if it's a private company masquerading as something special........kick their backsides.

 

Newcastle (Longbenton/Washington) have to know your details in order to pay any pension/benefit you may be entitled to under EU rules. That's an unfortunate fact. The notion that they then give these details to a private company for profit is.................

 

a UK phenomenon??????

 

 

 

 

Make sure you complete a P85(?) when you leave. It can make a lot of difference.

 

 

Yes, it's P85 http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/cnr/p85.pdf

[dannyboy660]

As for Dec 2008, forget it, like the rest of European rules it will take antother 3 years at least. If it ever does come about it then has to be adopted by the uk gov and that can be just as slow.

 

 

I'll drink to that......and do my best to ensure it gets delayed ;-)

 

 

One thing is guaranteed while the present incumbent sits...........

 

 

"Empty heads vote Labour in,........but empty pockets vote them out......"

[dannyboy660]

You've got to admit, they are very persistent!!!

 

In fact, I would say that letter only proves beyond doubt that these are computer generated threats that are mailed as part of a set process without any human input whatsoever, from a telephone call centre. There is absolutely no reference to the fact that you are not UK resident and what other options may be open to them, even though they are being mailed to an address in France. What astonishing stupidity.

 

It sounds like it might be the end of the road. This could be the point where the computer gives up and it has to have someone take a look at the account. There has to be a point where they act - or not - surely this must be it for the sake of the Amazon rainforest???

 

Also noticed that Company no 3772278 according to Companies House has no overseas details recorded.....not that it would do them much good if they had.