First parking ticket in 13 years

[julius1973]

Hi,

Yesterday I received my first ticket in 13 years. I live in Market Harborough, which is a small market town in Leicestershire. In the town centre there are various small road parking bay for 3-4 cars and all of the bays have a post next to them marking 40 minutes parking.....except one. The one I parked in last night to nip across the road to buy a football magazine from whsmiths. I was in the shop between 5.11 pm and 5.17 pm. When I returned a 'curb rat' was standing in front of my car and was appearing to be writing a ticket. I said to her that I had only been in the shop for 5 minutes and the parking was for 40 minutes so there should be no problem. She informed me that this bay was no parking before 6pm and had a single yellow line. I looked down and there was a dull yellow line on the ground, but very easy to miss. I asked her where the post stating no parking was. She informed me that on the side of the building there was a sign. I looked and she was right. What I am wondering was why have all the parking bays where you can park got posts clearly signifying parking allowed but the one bay in the worn centre where you cannot only has a small sign on a wall about 15 feet away from the bay, which was easily missed, along with the dull yellow lines on cobbled floor. I am angry of course as this is obviously a ploy to catch people out and the curb rat must have been laying in wait for a victim. All of the other bays were empty and I was causing no problems to traffic flow.

Are there any grounds where I can appeal against this?

[buzby]

I'd love to say yes - but the appearance of ANY yellow marking within the bay should warn you that the right to park there is conditional, and based on information on the plate displayed. Did the other bays you mention have a line trough them too?

 

This is really a technical breach - the warden will know of the prime spots where this type of enforcement can be easily achieved. The sad fact it you now know where one of those in MH is - there may be others you've still to discover!

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

I'm not so sure I agree with Buzby. Signage still has to be adequate. Can you take some photographs and post them here?

Is this de-criminalised parking?

Can you scan and post both sides of the ticket or type them out here? Leave out personal stuff, reg plate etc. There may be defects in the ticket itself.

[julius1973]

Thanks for the replies. I will try to get some photos for you. Just to confirm the other bays have signs on posts right next to them and have no yellow lines. This bay is the only one in my town as far as I am aware which has parking restictions. The bay is cobbled and the paint quite worn. At night, when I parked it is not very easy to see and there was a tree next to it shedding lots of leaves over the line. I have been past the bay today and checked again. The bay was full of cars, as it is most days. All seem to be unaware of the fact that it is only parking after 6 so I must assume that the signage is not clear enough for people to see

[julius1973]

Hi,

I just went to the parking bay and took some photos. As you can see the line is very dull and broken. The 2nd photo shows the small sign on the wall (it's reflecting the flash) and the 3rd photo shows the adjacent bay 50 yards away with a post (also reflecting the flash). I spoke with a lady in the shop next to the bay and she informed me apparently the reason why the sign is on the wall not on a post is because it's in a conservation area. I would have assumed the other areas with posts would be covered too as they are very close. Apparently the running of this has just changed to council curb rats from police so it's a bit of a revenue earner. Normally about 20 people per day are getting caught by this one traffic curb rat (I always call them that). It has been in the local paper, which I didn't read

 

My photos can be viewed from the following link:

 

Filefactory -- uksoftwaredeals.

 

Many thanks

[patdavies]

. When I returned a 'curb rat' was standing in front of my car and was appearing to be writing a ticket. I said to her that I had only been in the shop for 5 minutes and the parking was for 40 minutes so there should be no problem.

 

This was your mistake.

 

You should have just got in and driven off - if she didn't affix the ticket to the vehicle or hand it to you, it would have been void.

[julius1973]

Unfortunately she was just going to stick it on the window when I arrived and she knew I was going to get in my car so stuck it on my window before I had a chance to escape. Even if I had tried to drive off straight away there was no way I could have escaped without it being stuck on my window. That was the onlt reason I spoke to her.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

I have had a look at the photos and while night-time shots are difficult, I think that there may well be a case to be made here for inadequate signage. "Signage" here is signs and markings.

 

Would it be possible for you to get more pictures showing the relationship between the bay you were in and the others, the posts and the sign on the wall and also some better pictures of the white bay markings.

 

LAs do have a duty to ensure that signage is adequate, that it is maintained and this duty is increased in unusual areas (which this may be).

 

It is also worth posting a copy of the PCN (both sides) so we can take a look at it as that may also be defective.

 

If you e-mail them as before that will be helpful.

 

Thanks

[julius1973]

Hi,

 

I just did a search of my local paper, the harborough mail, as apparently there was an article in it. There is a letter in to the paper which states the following referring to the bay I parked in outside lords electrical stores:

 

Parking restriction explained

 

I AM indebted to your correspondents for the information that what were previously parking spaces outside Subway and Lords now constitute a No Parking area. As a result of his revelation, I was able to avoid a fine myself – and no doubt others have too.

I felt a need to ask one of my local councillors, the excellent Alistair Swatridge, to establish the reason for this decision and to advise who was responsible. This he did promptly, advising that it was the Harborough District Council parking manager, Warren Griffiths who was responsible. It is possible that your readers (and Leicestershire Constabulary) will be interested in Mr Griffiths' explanation, which I quote verbatim:

"The parking restrictions in the area outside Lords have been in place for a number of years and well before we took over the enforcement in July. When decriminalised parking was introduced in July no new traffic regulation orders (TRO) were created, the existing orders were consolidated and the signs and lines re-painted or replaced to ensure they complied with the TROs already existing.

The police who should have enforced on the existing TROs did not. They carried out little or no enforcement and that was one of the main reasons the county became decriminalised.

The area outside Lords is a no parking area between 8 and 6. I believe this is to allow for deliveries and loading in that area, preventing these vehicles having to stop in the road or park on the opposite pavement causing a potentially dangerous obstruction. The remaining parking areas nearby are limited time parking to allow shoppers to park and use the shops. There is a single yellow line in the no parking area which denotes a restriction is in place and a sign on the wall facing the bay informing the user of the restriction in place.

I have spoken to Clive Howe from the Highways Agency, and we visited the site to look at the signage. Although it does conform to the legal requirement for enforcement in this area and was placed on the wall to prevent posts having to be put up in the conservation area spoiling the town, Clive agreed to order additional signage to fit the wooden posts that face the parking area to further clarify the restriction. I spoke to Clive and he has ordered the signage and will put it up when it arrives.

We have a contractual obligation to patrol all the TROs in place on behalf of LCC and that is why the level of enforcement has increased since we took over."

So there! I had not realised that the County Council was so dissatisfied with the police that they decided to pass the responsibility of "decriminalising the county" to local authorities. So drivers remember that the next time you get a ticket in what looks like a parking space but isn't!

 

John Scott,

Tymecrosse Gardens,

Harborough.

 

 

Does this verbal admission from the Clive Howe of the Highways Agency that they are ordering more signage show that the existing signage is insufficient?

 

I will try to get more photos of the bay and others to show the relationship. In the meantime I have pasted in a link to a satellite picture from google maps

 

Google Maps

 

I was parked where the red car was just under the tree next to the main junction. The small sign was on the wall between the 1st and 2nd building, just where the large shadow ends. The other 2 parking bays are on the right. They are 40 minutes and have posts with signs like normal. I am not sure why the bay I parked in is in a conservation area but the others may not be. It's something I need to check with the council.

[julius1973]

Actually just seen another letter to my local council:

 

 

Another nice little earner

 

LIKE Chris Dodds, I have to agree Harborough District Council has discovered an easy way to make money out of unsuspecting motorists in that they have changed the parking restrictions outside Subway, Lords and Aldwinckles in Church Square and spoilt their drive for more support for local shops.

Last Thursday I came in to collect my wife from St Dionysius Church and found a space outside Subway. There was another car parked there with a disabled badge displayed. I noticed the solid yellow line, but could not see the 'No Parking' sign, so inconveniently displayed on the buff coloured brickwork. I came back to find a ticket after some 20 minutes.

On my way to pay the fine I met the traffic warden, who agreed that the displayed sign was difficult to distinguish and he showed me the photographic evidence. He also said that he and his colleagues had not realised this was a no parking area until it had been pointed out to him by a superior! I leave you to draw your own conclusions.

I can see no 'safety reason' for imposing no parking restrictions on what has been until recently a regular parking space for so many and to all intents and purposes the road is still marked as a parking bay. If HDC is intent on keeping this as such, then they need to get the Highways Department to paint prominently No Parking on the road surface, but then they would lose their money earner!

 

Philip Clements,

Laughton Road,

Lubenham.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

Hi,

 

I just did a search of my local paper, the harborough mail, as apparently there was an article in it. There is a letter in to the paper which states the following referring to the bay I parked in outside lords electrical stores:

 

Parking restriction explained

 

I AM indebted to your correspondents for the information that what were previously parking spaces outside Subway and Lords now constitute a No Parking area. As a result of his revelation, I was able to avoid a fine myself – and no doubt others have too.

I felt a need to ask one of my local councillors, the excellent Alistair Swatridge, to establish the reason for this decision and to advise who was responsible. This he did promptly, advising that it was the Harborough District Council parking manager, Warren Griffiths who was responsible. It is possible that your readers (and Leicestershire Constabulary) will be interested in Mr Griffiths' explanation, which I quote verbatim:

"The parking restrictions in the area outside Lords have been in place for a number of years and well before we took over the enforcement in July. When decriminalised parking was introduced in July no new traffic regulation orders (TRO) were created, the existing orders were consolidated and the signs and lines re-painted or replaced to ensure they complied with the TROs already existing.

The police who should have enforced on the existing TROs did not. They carried out little or no enforcement and that was one of the main reasons the county became decriminalised.

The area outside Lords is a no parking area between 8 and 6. I believe this is to allow for deliveries and loading in that area, preventing these vehicles having to stop in the road or park on the opposite pavement causing a potentially dangerous obstruction. The remaining parking areas nearby are limited time parking to allow shoppers to park and use the shops. There is a single yellow line in the no parking area which denotes a restriction is in place and a sign on the wall facing the bay informing the user of the restriction in place.

I have spoken to Clive Howe from the Highways Agency, and we visited the site to look at the signage. Although it does conform to the legal requirement for enforcement in this area and was placed on the wall to prevent posts having to be put up in the conservation area spoiling the town, Clive agreed to order additional signage to fit the wooden posts that face the parking area to further clarify the restriction. I spoke to Clive and he has ordered the signage and will put it up when it arrives.

We have a contractual obligation to patrol all the TROs in place on behalf of LCC and that is why the level of enforcement has increased since we took over."

So there! I had not realised that the County Council was so dissatisfied with the police that they decided to pass the responsibility of "decriminalising the county" to local authorities. So drivers remember that the next time you get a ticket in what looks like a parking space but isn't!

 

John Scott,

Tymecrosse Gardens,

Harborough.

 

 

Does this verbal admission from the Clive Howe of the Highways Agency that they are ordering more signage show that the existing signage is insufficient?

 

I will try to get more photos of the bay and others to show the relationship. In the meantime I have pasted in a link to a satellite picture from google maps

 

Google Maps

 

I was parked where the red car was just under the tree next to the main junction. The small sign was on the wall between the 1st and 2nd building, just where the large shadow ends. The other 2 parking bays are on the right. They are 40 minutes and have posts with signs like normal. I am not sure why the bay I parked in is in a conservation area but the others may not be. It's something I need to check with the council.

 

What was the date of that letter? That will be relevant.

Do you mean that the other two bays are the ones, one north one south of the road to the right of the one way road you have to turn right to exit?

I still think you have an inadequate signage defence. In particular you cannot be expected to read the sign when you are pulling up to park. Also from your photos I don't think the white lines are compliant but it is difficult to be sure.

[julius1973]

The first letter was dated Oct 10th and the 2nd was Sept 27th. You are correct in your assumtion where the other bays are. One has keep clear as there is a small archway. The other one is below on the other side of the road. I am going to speak to the guy from the council later, Clive Howe, to ask why there is insufficient signage and why that bay does not have the same signs as the others. The yellow line in the bay definitely has breaks in it and is very dull at the end where I parked. Coupled with the fact that the line is covered with leaves doesn't help.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

OK, in your shoes my strategy would be this.

 

Firstly don't worry.

 

I would risk the undiscounted penalty. You have 14 days from the date of service of the notice to pay the discounted rate. It is good practice for LA's, if informal representations are received within that time to, if they respond rejecting the representations to give a further period of time to pay the reduced rate (this is not guaranteed but councils have been severely criticised if they don't do this). So after 10 days I would write to the council and explain that you feel that the signage is inadequate and therefroe the restrictions are unenforceable, particularly as the council are clearly aware of the problems and have published plans to upgrade the signage.

 

If, and I think it is quite a big if, the council reject this you can pay the discounted penalty if and they should for the reasons above still offer it. Or wait for the NTO to arrive. You have no formal right of appeal until you get the NTO (and sometimes it never comes - by law it has to come in 6 months if my recollection is correct but it may be three!). When you get the NTO you will have two grounds for appeal that I think will apply in your case ( you will have lost the right to pay at the reduced rate). The grounds will be that the contravention never occurred and that the penalty exceeds the relevant amount. To try to make the case we need to do more work but there is plenty of time if it comes to that.

 

After you submit the appeal to the NTO the council will etite accept or reject it. Nothing else is permissable. My LA once wrote and again offered me the chance to pay at the reduced rate, I wrote back and said thank-you for accepting my appeal on one or more of the grounds I put forward, the law only allows you to cancel the PCN and NTO please do so - and they did!

 

If the reject your appeal, you now have the right to go to the adjudicator. There is no cost other than time and postage (plus travel etc if you want a personal hearing). If the adjudicator rules against you you then have to pay the penalty (there are very very limited rights of appeal) before you start to get a charge certificate (increasing the penalty by 50%) and the possibility of any costs.

 

All of that is a long way away though.

 

I am more than happy to help you with the process, but only on the basis that I will tell you what I would do. You have to make up your own mind and the risk (minimal though it is, is yours).

[julius1973]

Many thanks for the reply. I just spoke to Clive Howe of the Highways Agency in Harborough. He stated that the signage is sufficient to be in line with legal requirements. He wasn't aware that the yellow line was broken and the reason for the sign being on the wall instead of the post was due to the fact that when these were erected about 13 years ago the local council tried to put as many on walls where shop keepers agreed to that in order to keep the appearance of the town neater. He did however admit that more signs are on order for this particular pbay to make it more prominent, which could be seen as an admission that the current signage is insufficient.

I think on this basis I will go along with your above recommendation to appeal and see if it gets me anywhere.