That's all every well in theory but it could be a faulty till or it could be that another member of staff on a "shared" till is dipping. I have even seen members of staff "set up" by other employees simply to get rid of them - all sorts of things go on! You can't simply fob it off by saying the person hasn't done their job properly! Here's another example - A decorator I know was recently contracted to repaint the room where the takings are counted, where the change is put through the counting machines at the local bus depot. He enjoyed a great weekend in the pub thanks to picking up over £740 in change from behind the benches that had obviously fallen down the back during the counting process and that obviously has been deducted from who know how many employees wages over the years?

What a jobsworth! To begin with I would call her bluff. You weren't issued with a parking ticket at the time, so that threat is null and void and last time I looked there was no such offence of "driving away from a police officer". So what are there any witnesses to exactly? Nothing! Go to the station and you will probably be charged with something, basically the old trick of getting you to come in to admit your guilt. Can you honestly see two old ladies being bothered to go down to the station and make a statement or turn up in court for an alleged parking offence? (there is no other offence here). Even if they do the officer hasn't followed the procedure of actually issuing the ticket so it's not enforceable anyway! Phone her back and ask that given she must know the law, why is she deliberately ignoring it in order to get a conviction.

You surely must have a copy of the revised signed agreement?

They can't do much legally, and I feel that the tactics most of them use such as insisting that you MUST pay NOW via continuous phone calls and visits is illegal harrassment, and if anything we should all be negotiating what amount of compensation they are willing to offer us pending legal action. However a good tactic is to pay a few quid when you can DIRECTLY to the people you owe the money to, not to the DCA. Why? Because the creditor, such as Lloyds in this example, probably won't bother to write to the DCA telling them you have just paid them a fiver. You can then claim that the amount owed is in dispute as the DCA's figures will be incorrect. As such it would be improper of them to go ahead with court action, and 99 times out of 100 they probably won't risk it if there is a possibility that they will lose. Paying a bit off and using this tactic buys you more time if nothing else.

Everything has been said that needs to be about the original issue, but regarding the porn issue I would make absolutely sure that you have solid proof that the machine was in their possession at the time the porn had been viewed. If you can't prove it was in their possession or if they find that it happened at an earlier time (say for example if someone else had used your PC while it was in your possession) it could be you that is facing the rap, and this is too serious to not check and be absolutely 100% sure before you officially report anything.

Paypal have done nothing wrong??? They are a law unto themselves! they withold your funds without warning, often without any sort of full explanation, then act as judge, jury and executioner with other people's money. Then when you need their help they don't want to know! Regardless of the quality of the goods in this case it is perfectly clear from the OP's opening post that the seller has received the returned goods so there is no reason on earth why the buyer should not now be refunded and Paypal, or the seller, have no excuse whatsoever. The seller currently has the goods AND the money so it is now totally irrelevant that the goods were substandard. That's not right! WHY have Paypal not refunded? There is absolutely no excuse. A very similar thing happened to me last year, I complained about misdescribed goods, Paypal found in my favour and said they would refund when I had returned the item then changed their minds when the seller claimed he had received an empty package back. I asked him if the package was sealed when he signed for it and he said it was. I then pointed out that the price I paid for the weight of the parcel proved that it wasn't an empty package but Paypal still refused to refund me even after I had pointed out that he had since relisted the item, which was one of a kind. If Paypal are purely a middleman then they should not withold funds or decide who is right and who is wrong, it's nothing to do with them, it's a matter for the small claims court. What gives them the right to decide who is entitled to the money? Paypal Payment Protection my ar5e.

Keep it going Simon, good stuff.

Well done, this is what we need, somebody actually FIGHTING the system! We ALL need to look towards doing this at a practical level instead of just moaning about the injustice of it all.

Brilliant, thank you.

So basically I should be asking the court office for copies of a witness statement, although isn't pages 9 and 10 of the items I sent to you a witness statement? - and a "substituted service" order?

I've gotta go back to the court office. Those dozen or so papers I emailed you recently were EVERYTHING that was given to me by the court office and I did ask, verbally and in writing (I also asked them to place a copy of the request in the file), for copies of everything that they had on file relating to the case. As you know BB, there wasn't much of it! If a substituted service application was filed they MUST have more than this, I've been puzzled from the start about the lack of paperwork on file relating to this case.

Thanks again for all your help. I'm going to print it out and mull it over. I'm not sure what is meant by "substituted service", and if that's what actually happened to us in this case. I'm concerned about "time" and "cost" (either way) here, although getting the application in would at least buy us some time. I'm definately not happy about the solicitors costs etc, seems to me like everybody is just out to fleece us and that we're unwilling victims in the whole thing. The parking ticket thing is just one of the farces that goes on in Blackpool, I'm less concerned about that issue at the moment but I got a letter from Phoenix (the bailiffs) this morning which begins "Whilst it is not our policy or desire to create hardship and distress at this time of year......" AHA!!! So they ADMIT that what they do causes distress, and isn't knowingly causing somebody distress an offence? (Note: Basically they have knidly offered to accept half of what is owed and collect the rest in the New Year. How kind of them! They go on to say in capitals "IF NO PAYMENT IS RECEIVED RECOVERY ACTION WILL CONTINUE THROUGHOUT DECEMBER" - so no qualms whatsoever about continuing to cause distress at Christmas then! It beggars belief!

Sorry about the delay, having connection probs (stuck with a dialup connex for a few days yet), got a hundred other issues to deal with and my head is all over the place. We had a meeting at home tonight with the firm that the solicitors deal with re. remortgaging to pay everything off to get it annuled. State of play re. costs: Original debt to the council (inc. costs) : Just under £4,000 OR's fee: £1,650 Solicitors fee: £4,500 + VAT The firm that deals with the remortgage: £3,500 Cost of court case to have the thing annuled: £1000+ Valuation fee (for the remortgage) : £450 Pay off other debts (necessary to have the bankrupcy annuled) : £2000 approx. Cost of putting the forms in for the annulment: £65 Early settlement penalty from the mortgage company we are currently with: £5,000 Total so far: £23,000+ Add to that the extra interest over the term of the remortgage and you can probably double that at least!!! I am told that an appeal on the grounds that it should never have been made will cost me upwards of £3,000, and if it fails (which we keep being told it probably will) then we will be back in the position of having to go through the above procedure anyway and it will have cost us even more and prolonged the agony! I just don't know which way to turn, or what to make of it all. I'm at my wits end at the moment and still trying to make sense of it all. There has to be a better, cheaper way? This isn't right.

I would simply explain to the Police that since there is no evidence (according to them) to link it to a particular crime, or even determine that one has taken place, they have no reason to keep what is effectively your property at the moment. Also explain that the only way you can get a refund is by sending it back, but that aside I see no reason for the police to hang on to it - if there's no crime it isn't evidence! Have you actually asked them for it back? Incidentally if you do get it and send it back, use Special Delivery. Paypal do not accept Recorded Delivery as a trackable method so even if he gets it back and signs for it (using Recorded), Paypal bizarrely still won't accept this. This actually happened to me last year when I returned an item using Recorded Delivery but the seller told Paypal he never received it and Paypal upheld his claim because I hadn't sent it by a trackable method. This was DESPITE the fact that he sent me an email stating that he had received a package (which I forwarded to Paypal) AND he relisted the item (which was unique, there couldn't be two of them!) but Paypal still found in his favour. Better to get it back and try to negiotiate with him amicably, I wouldn't trust Paypal! If that doesn't work threaten him with a CCJ. Be very careful when buying mobile phones on ebay, I sell phones on ebay and it is a minefield trying to prove you are genuine amongst all the scams. I offer a 12-month warranty on all my phones and a seven-day returns policy. Look for a seller that offers similar. However you are unlikely to find much better deals than you can find at most of the major retailers on the net, and in some cases in the High Street! If you're looking to find a £20 or so saving on a £200 item there are other ways of doing it without taking what, as a seller I fully accept, is a risk of finding a genuine ebay seller. It's tough - I recently bought an item from a seller who gave his location as Australia but the item came from Hong Kong. It was described as "stainless steel" and in fact was plastic, I only paid £8 but it was worth about half of that. Yet remarkably he had 7000+ 100% positive feedback and other purchasers were happy enough! I've generally learnt to pick out the good sellers from the bad, but it's not a foregone conclusion as this example proves and in all honesty I would not spend more than a few ponuds with a seller I didn't know.

It's the whole system that is wrong. The idea of sending bailiffs round to collect monies owed is an antiquated one and should be scrapped, or at least seriously overhauled. The fees are also adding an unnecesary burden to those who in most cases are the ones that are in debt simply because they can't afford to pay their billls, and there are considerably cheaper, possibly more effective and certainly less distressing options than sending a bailiff round, such as an attachment of earnings order for example. The firm the local council uses are nothing more than a bunch of mercenaries who flaunt the law both in person and in writing in an intimidating manner and the sad fact is that the system itself is tantamount to mental thuggery. I would rather take a thump than the hassle, harrassment, stress, worry and additional expense that I have incurred as a result of the system. There are countless posts on this board - this thread is a prime example - of the distress that the mere thought of a visit from the bailiff causes, and after a long period of having to put up with this it definately has an adverse affect on your health and wellbeing. That's not right legally or morally and if we could find someone with the clout and financial ability to fight for compensation for the mental illness that has been caused to what is probably milllions of people then we might get some much needed reform. The trouble is it will never happen because the people being harrassed are the very people that cannot afford to fight the system.

Just to clarify slightly, a bailiff CAN take a car from a driveway (as long as it is not behind locked gates) if it is a civil matter but he can NOT take the car if it subject to a HP agreement - even if it is parked on the road! He also canont take the car if you need it for your job, e.g. you are self-employed. It's classed as one of the tools of your trade, and they cannot take your livelihood away from you. However I believe a police-imposed fine is very different and this sort of fine DOES permit the bailiffs to take the car even if it is on HP. As for our resident bailiff, will he admit that you have NO LEGAL OBLIGATION WHATSOEVER to come to a payment arrangement with him, speak to him or even open the door to him - in which case of course he cannot break in! Further action will probably follow but you're better off simply paying the money to whoever it is owed, e.g. for council tax just pay the council. The council will tell you that it must be paid to the bailiffs but if you pay your payments direct to the council via a bank or post office they're not exactly going to return it to you are they? It also means that you can buy some extra time by sending a letter to the council officially disputing the bill that the bailiffs send to you as you will have already paid some of it off - in this case you can ask for the council to suspend any further action whilst the matter is investigated - they should do so, and in the meantime just keep paying a bit more whenever you can even if it's a couple of quid on a daily basis.

Er, just one small but very, very important point - a bailiff IS ALLOWED to remove a car from your driveway but not from a locked garage. If possible, if you know the bailiffs are coming get the car out of there! Alternatively you can chain up the gates to the driveway - they cannot physically damage them and break in unless they have a walking possession agreement so NEVER sign anything - you have no legal obligation to do so!

The problem is although we think there is only so far they can go, nobody does anything about it so there is nobody to stop them. I'll tell you how bad it is - the council have just made my partner bankrupt for council tax arrears, a situation which is now going to cost us around £10,000 in legal fees etc. to annul the bankrupcy despite the fact that we had no idea a hearing had taken place until after the event. We feel we are owed compensation for the stress and trauma the bailiffs have caused ILLEGALLY through such actions as the original poster described in this thread. For example: 1. Intimidating letters wrongly claiming that they would be coming round "with a locksmith and the police" - wrongly forcing us into believing that the police were coming round to help them! 2. Loss of earnings having taken days off work to prevent them from breaking in only to find that they did not turn up. 3. Letters stating that we had broken a "Walking Possession Agreement" despite the fact that they had never had one, we have never signed anything and they have never set foot inside the door. 4. Illegally telling me that they could take my car despite the fact that it is the subject of a H.P. agreement and it is required for businerss use (I'm self-employed). When challenged the bailiff actually told me I was WRONG to claim that they couldn't take it and asked me to hand over the keys or expect a tow truck. 5, 6, 7.... Letters pushed through the door without envelopes, bailiffs shouting through the letterbox, talking to neigbours and so on. No itemised statements, stealing the £50 I offered towards my council tax and giving the council NOTHING after claiming that the £50 only covered their fees, the list goes on. I feel that this is worthy of an investigation and compensation - it's certainly affected our health and I can't remember the last time we laughed about anything, but nobody you speak to seems to think you have a chance of taking them on and the council just don't want to know. The trouble is you get so stressed out you get to the point where you just don't know HOW to deal with it.It's not right but as much as I want to fight you just never get anywhere, and the authorities know that those in debt do not have the money to be able to mount a legal challenge.

I'll tel you what worries me the most - the fact that despite the fact that there are plenty of sites that offer help and advice and the fact that public are becoming more knowledgeable, far from improving the situation seems to be getting worse. I believe the authorities are turning a blind eye because most bailiffs are acting on their behalf, i.e. they are getting in revenues from unpaid council tax, parking and other fines etc. If they clamp down they lose money. Not as much wil be collected, simple as, and in the days when we are fined for a growing number of misdeameanours without trial, e.g. speeding fines, parking tickets etc. we are not going to get any help from the authorities in doing something about these mercenaries because quite frankly they are doing what the council or court want them to do - collecting their (your) money.

These T&C's are deliberatly designed to worry you into paying. I would be interested to see what the "police action" that is referred to in part 7 amounts to! If it's not a police-issued ticket then the police have nothing to do with it; it's a civil matter and the police will (or should) tell you that if you ask them. It really is time that this was sorted out because the stress and worry it causes people is far more important than the financial aspect, and this isn't being addressed. It doesn't fall too far short of "demanding money with menaces" in my opinion, it's a disgrace and something has to be done..

Just thought of something, which depending how you (or the courts) look at it, could be significant: A few months ago we applied for (and were granted) a secured loan to clear off some debts and do some much-needed work on the house. Given that the council had previously declined our offer of part payment and instalments this was done with a view to clearing the debt. Since we couldn't get any sensible reply to our offer to pay in instalments except for the fact they said "it was too late", we decided not to go ahead with it until we heard further from the council. However the significance of this is surely that it proves that we WERE in a position to pay prior to the court hearing? Any mileage in this?

Agreed, unless they have introduced some sort of new laws for London (such as they did with the congestion charge) bailiffs have no legal right to do this! If they HAVE introduced such a draconian law I'm staggered that they have got away with it in this day and age. I have always maintained that in the vast majority of cases unless an obstuction is caused, parking "illegally" doesn't even warrant a fine. The motorist has always been hammered but it's now reaching farcicle proportions and i'm convinced it's just another method of trying to get cars off the road.

BE WARNED!!!!! My partner has just been made bankrupt for council tax arrears having not been able to pay the full amount due for the year for the past four years. The bailiffs were fended off repeatedly like you do, but eventually the council decided enough was enough and hired a firm of solicitors to recover the debt. My partner had no prior notification of the hearing so was not able to defend herself in court and although it is clear that the solicitors acting for the council posted the documents through the wrong door (their description of the property where the papers were served does not match the description of her house in any way) we have been told by a succession of solicitors that there is no chance of winning an appeal. Despite the fact that an offer was made five months ago to repay a 60% lump sum of the arrears and double the usual monthly payment until it was cleared, the council rejected the offer and said they (or their solicitors) would be in touch. No word from them, just a letter to say she had been made bankrupt at a hearing we knew nothing about. I'll cut it here, but this will cost us £10,000 to sort out. Sod what they say, sod the bailiffs, just keep paying whatever you can to the council directly via bank transfer or at the post office (even a fiver or tenner a week) even if they say they will not accept your offer of payment. Unless they send it back they have accepted it anyway, but the thing is if regular (even small) payments are sent it will at least show you are trying to pay and will probably prevent further drastic action against you. It's all very well playing the game, but coucils don't give up on what they are owed, they don't have to fund the fees out of their own pocket, we do and when the s**t hits the fan as it just has done with us it's messy believe me. As unjust as it is (and the fight goes on, believe me), just don't go there especially if you own property.

Incidentally I was pulled over by an unmarked car a while back for "overtaking". I was, I overtook a car doing 20mph in a 30 zone on a quiet, clear night. Strangely, the "officer" beckoned me over to his car once we had stopped. Not the usual procedure! I believe it's safest to get past a slow moving car as quickly as possible so no doubt exceeded the speed limit during the overtaking manoevre, but speeding wasn't mentioned. The "officer" asked me why I was overtaking the other car. Then I noticed his cap on the passenger seat. The band around the cap read "TRAFFIC WARDEN". I can't repeat what I said to him but I called the police. To cut a long story short, that's one less traffic warden on the streets!

The question for me is WHY were the police there? This sounds to me like it was an unpaid fine for a police-issued parking ticket. Don't forget that we have this bizarre system whereby in some areas of the country parking "fines" have been decriminalised and are run by the council (who use it as a cash cow, there were 13 police-contolled traffic wardens in my town until the council took over. They increased this to 79 overnight. there are now over 100). In other areas they are still police controlled so you can get arrested and/or your car impounded if you don't pay the fine. Double standards or what?