The one thing that annoys me about this whole issue is that councils CAN charge us £30 or whatever if we are a couple of minutes late back to our cars. While nobody can condone what these private firms are doing, which is trying to con people into having to pay a "fine" which doesn't legally exist, the very people who are supposed to protect us from scams like this i.e. the government/council are themselves responsible for it's existance in the first place. Nobody rips us off more than our own government.

If you had a good credit rating why didn't you try elsewhere first?

I thought this was quite amusing actually; a friend of mine knew someone a few years ago who was clamped at the back of Iceland (on their car park). He got the clamp removed but still got a bill for £90. He sent them a letter stating that admission to his property would cost exactly the same as they were charging him. A few weeks later they pushed a promo leaflet through his door. He sent them a bill for £90 for "the use of his garden path and letterbox". Having explained to them that it was a legal charge as they had been pre-warned he told them to go ahead with their claim against him in court and he would counterclaim. Needless to say he never heard another word.

That well clarified thanks, but that's my point too - what has the breach of the landowner's terms & conditions actually cost him? Absolutely nothing.

Thanks for your comments ivorbiggun, I'm learning the hard way that once the authrities have you by the short and curlies there isn't much you can do whether they have acted legally or otherwise. It all really comes down to having the funds to be able to afford to hire a big city lawyer to fight them, and most of us haven't or we wouldn't be here.

Having given it an awful lot of thought I do believe we have a strong case but there is a deciding factor in our decision and that is the fact that if the OR appoints a trustee ahead of us doing so, which he must do within 12 weeks but I am told this is usually done pretty quickly, it will cost us fortunes. Trustees fees have been quoted at anything from £3,500 to £20,000 and apparently once appointed there is little we can do (again!). As hard as it is to accept, it would appear to make sense to go ahead with the solicitor's advice at this stage and get someone professional onside; if we have to pay out I would rather pay someone who is on our side. The specialist solicitor I spoke to last night deals with everything, it's expensive at £4500 but it's a flat fee so at least we know where we stand, she is definately pro-active and confident and deals with nothing else except bankrupcy. If she says we are unlikely to win I feel I have to put my anger to one side and listen or it could cost us a whole lot more. We have therefore decided to go down this route to get everything paid off and the bankrupcy annuled, after which I will then be considering ways to get some sort of compensation for our costs. I still believe that even if the server did stand up in court and say he made a mistake, the fact is he did so under oath and that must count for something but unfortunately nobody I speak to who supposedly knows about these things seems to agree and if we lose the cost is too great. Looking at it practically if the bankrupcy is eventually annuled this way when everything is paid off it's still a result of sorts. I'm not happy about it by any stretch of the imagination and I will be reporting it to the press, my MP, BBC Watchdog and anybody else I can think of at least as a warning to others, but this is wrecking us and sometimes you just have to accept that life in UK.plc isn't always fair and move on. Luckily most of our available cash is in my accounts so the receiver won't get his paws on that, a remortgage to pay off everything will probably cost us an extra £100 a month or something but at least it clears everything and gives us a fresh start so in that respect it's not that big a deal. That's the way I have to try and look at it anyway for my own sanity.

Reasonable cause? For what? The only thing they stand to gain here is profit. You haven't damaged or stolen anything, your car just happened to be in a place it shouldn't have been. No harm was done to anything or anybody. To my mind there is nothing there which warrants your personal details being issued to a private company. The other thing is where is there a law which allows private companies to fine you or even decide for themselves whether it is the owner or the driver who is liable? Police and councils have to follow correct procedures, e.g. correctly worded documents and correctly painted lines and signage for example, which themselves have to be done to a set standard by law. What, then, permits private companies to invent their own system? Are we saying that they are outside the constraints of the law/legal system? Driver, owner or whatever, it is my opnion that they have no legal right to impose their fine/penalty charge (or whatever you want to call it) upon you anyway. Just ask them what their legal right is to fine you and to quote the law exactly, they won't be able to.

It would be worth your while having a look around the forum and familiarising yourself with what is legal and what isn't. There is a time on the ticket which I think is all that matters and I don't think there is a legal requirement to describe the codes meanings on the tcikets. There isn't a lot of info to go on there really, more details or a pic would be better. There are other reasons why the ticket might be illegal, or have been issued illegally (unclear signage or worn-out lines for example).

Is this true? It sounds absolutely bizarre! Were the parking fines from an area where they are still police controlled? Certainly council hired bailiffs have no power to actually pull you over, nor as far as I know do police bailiffs. I don't get this, a bailiff can't make you get out of the car either or insist that you go and get the money, although a few years ago I did have a bailiff on the doorstep - he hadn't entered the house - who told me I had 30 minutes to go and get the money he wanted. I know now I could have simply told him to f off and there was nothing he could have done but the lying ****** told me at the time that he would break in to take my goods if I didn't go and get the cash. The police can arrest you or impound your car for non-payment of a fine, but only for an offence, not a council-issued parking ticket.

It might be a waste of time, Welcome tend to send most correspondence on to the local branch to deal with anyway. I went in to make a payment today and asked the manager why they keep phoning me since I asked for my mobile number to be taken off the database via a letter to head office. I expected him to say they hadn't been informed but no, to my surprise just the opposite - he said they knew about the letter because it was company policy for head office to pass all correspondence on to the local branch. If that's true your letter will probably end up back at the local office anyway. He said he would remove my number from the database so we'll see what happens.

Thanks, I know they can be annuled if everything is paid off - the problem with that is the horrendous fees involved in reaching that stage. As well as the debt and the hearing costs, there is the OR's £1650 fee, then because there is a property involved the OR has to appoint a trustee or something and I have been warned that those bastards charge anything between 5 and 20 grand. I have been speaking to a solicitor tonight who specialises in this, she seems to be clued up and reckons the best way is just to let her take care of getting everybody paid off and move on. Her fees are a flat fee of £4,500 but her intervetion will mean that a trustee will not need to be appointed by the OR. She said that the main issue with trying to have it annuled on the grounds that the papers weren't served is that the OR will have by then appointed a trustee and by that time it will have cost us more than it's worth especially as we are unlikely to get it back. I haven't given her the go-ahead yet but our hands seem to be tied to a point in respect of the fact that to delay any longer, ort try to fight it might cost us a five-figure sum. It's a bitter pill to swallow and I will be doing all I can later on to recover whatever it costs us but we do need someone on board who knows what they are doing. Will have a look at that link though, there might just be some ammo on there that will help us.

I agree it matters that we don't have the papers but as it stands I have spoken to at least half a dozen solicitors etc. including one who specialises in bankrupcy and they are all saying the same thing, (1) that it's unlikely the judge will believe us and (2) that since we owe the money anyway it won't change the court's decision!

Not such a good day. I spoke to the solicitor, who said she had never heard of a case being annuled and said that all the server had to do was say to the court that I was the "55 year old man" he spoke to and that would be the end of that. She also said it might cost around £2000 and as the council were right to bring the case since we owe the money anyway the judge would be unlikely to award the costs of bringing the case against them. She didn't seem particularly interested that the house described was not ours, and said we needed all the papers from the company who brought the case. Why? It's surely too late for the papers now, we haven't got them, that's the whole point! It doesn't matter what they contain? She also said that the council would immediately bring the case again, and if we end up with a huge legal bill we will not then be able to pay the council tax arrrears. I put it to her that is was grossly unfair to heap more debt on us since I had previously made an offer of payment which was rejected and that if we had known about the case we would have paid anyway, but again she didn't think that was much of an argument. I came away with the feeling that the whole thing is a waste of time and we might as well go down the route of paying everything off via the OR and eventually get it annuled that way. We have had a raft of letters from solicitors etc. through the post and I spoke to one of them, but he suggested that despite everything the court would not now annul it until EVERYTHING had been paid off including the OR's fees. He also gave the impression that the judge would be more concerned about whether or not the debt was actually valid rather than the fact that proper procedures had not been followed. The whole thing's a joke. As you can imagine I'm feeling pretty low about the whole thing. Either way it looks as though we are stuck with a massive bill and it's grossly unfair on us. Despite what everyone says I still can't help but think I would be better just bypassing the OR and paying it off, at least then when I bring the annulment case I can state that the debt that was the subject of the original hearing does not now exist - that has to be a plus point?

Don't worry, I'm not daft! i'm totally focused on this. I'm puzzled about this too, the were no original documents, just letters to the court stating that the papers had been served. I did ask in writing for EVERYTHING and when the stuff was handed over I did say "Are you sure that's everything?" The answer was "Yes, that's all we have". I didn't find any entery but there must be one presumably given that we are now receiving "junk mail" letters from solicitors and firms touting for our business. I have an appointment with a local solicitor this afternoon, we'll take it from there.

Believe me I intend to follow this through. My missus isn't a strong person in situations like this and crumbles every time. I'm more resiliant and intend to follow this through to the bitter end, although years of fighting injustices like this (you know what I'm like) is taking it's toll. I intend to write to my MP, the local radio station (who love slating the local council in their newscasts) the National press, Granada Reports, BBC Watchdog and anybody else that will listen. Practices like this need to be stopped, I'm sick and tired of being illegally exploited for profit and worrying myself sick as a result and as far as I am concerned the fight goes on. I will have my day in court but it doesn't end there.

PS re Google Earth, I've had a look at that and for my area the photos are unclear at street level but are at least two years out of date. The council have biult what they laughingly called a park, which has taken over two years to complete (and costs went up from £6m to £16m). The Google Earth pics are pre-new park so are well out of date. A while ago I remember looking at a site which described the type of properties on a particular street anywhere in the country and shows a few pics. I can't remember the web addy for the site but it's my guess it is a site like this that was used to reach the conclusion that we lived in a terraced house. I honestly believe that the bailiff or whoever never came within 300 miles of our house, and as i said once the annulment is secured I intend to report it to the police with the insistance that they determine where he was on the dates he claimed to have hand-posted the documents.

BB, as stated above I have the paperwork from the courts, I asked for EVERYTHING in writing including the transcripts (no sign of them) and frankly got back very little. I will be more than happy to make copies of everything available, just email me at [email protected]. Yes, Thetford as in Norfolk; I'm guessing a little but I reckon around 300 miles away! SL, I want to fry someone's balls for this and once we get this annulled I am seriously considering asking the police to investigate this matter. As I have maintained throughout, we received NOTHING and my guess is that this chancer simply said he had served the documents to get his commission payment. I repeat, my guess is that he never came anywhere near our house! The front door is three feet away from the gable end, a five year old could not mistake it for a terraced house!!! There is another issue too. I have offered to pay the debt to the council in full and they refused several times saying that it was "too late" and I had to contact Incasso. Incasso refused to discuss the issue with me because it was not in my name but my partner's. Forgetting her situation for a moment. this puts me in an untenable position and I believe that I am within my rights to request that the debt is written off because I have repeatedly been denied the opprtunity to pay it. Once we have secured the annullment I will be asking the council to write it off as a gesture of goodwill pending legal action against them if they refuse to do so. there is also the possible issue of defamation of character against my partner. I couldn't find any record earlier today on the Gazette site but as expected we received half a dozen letters form solicitors etc. offering to take on the case. I have hand delivered a letter to the OR explaining the situation and asking that publication of the bankrupcy order is suspended and if it has already been done (as seems to be the case) then he should immediatly write to the Gazette asking for the entry to be removed pending the hearing to have it annulled. I have an appointment with the CAB tomorrow with a view to finding a solicitor that will take this on. The immediate priority is to have this annulled but I need advice on how to complete the application form correctly; after all I, or my partner, does not want to lose the rematch on a technicality! PLEASE continue to offer your opinions, it's encouraging and although I haven't broken out the champagne yet, it's definately been placed on ice! Thank you for your help and support to date. I will add to this thread as things progress. After six or seven horrendous years trying to pull back from the brink this have wrecked us for the past few days. The annullment is just the beginning, but I want blood (metaphorically speaking) for what they have put us through, and more importantly what thousands of people are going through every day whose crime is simply not being able to afford to pay; a "crime" which isn't even a criminal offence! The whole thing has left me shocked, but not surprised and in the 21st century that's not right.

Been thinking about this too - the papers were allegedly served "through the letterbox" by this chap from a firm called Ely Consultants in Thetford - that's about 300 miles away! My guess is that he has done an internet search somewhere of my street address for a description of the properties - I wouldn't know where to look but if such a site exists it would almost certainly describe my street as one with mostly Victorian terraced housing. But the ones in the middle, including ours, are semi-detached. My partner has suggested that he got the idea of a "55 year old man" by assuming that her partner is a few years older than her given that she is 51. Not that it matters but I don't think this guy has been anywhere near the house in his life - I don't think the papers were served to the wrong house, I don't think they were ever served at all.

Fantastic news! I've asked the court in writing for "copies of all documentation relating to this case including any transcripts of any hearings which took place". There isn't much of it, eleven pages including cover pages and not a single copy of the documents that were supposedly served upon us, or more accurately my partner. However the good news is on one page - in fact it's just one word: "terraced". The witness statement of the guy that served the papers says that "I did on Friday 23rd of June 2006 make an attempt to serve the demand on the above named Debtor, which transpires to be a Victorian terraced house." Why is this so significant? Because our house is a SEMI-DETACHED property, not terraced! Futhermore he goes on to say "I was unable to meet with the debtor but met with an adult male, aged about 55 years, from within who in answer to enquriy* confirmed the Debtors continued occupancy thereat." (* = that's how it's spelt on the letter) Huh? This appears to be a figment of his imagination! Neither of us have spoke with anybody, although there is nobody here aged 55!!! I'm 46 - I might have aged a bit this last week or so but most people who know me would say I look younger than I am. My point being that there is no-one here who could even be mistaken for a 55 year old (my mrs. is 51 but obviously not male!!!) As it happens I think that's irrelevant although it all helps. The key point for me is the word "terraced" - it doesn't describe our house!

Many thanks for your not inconsiderable help and advice on this matter. It means much more to us than I can possibly convey here, not least because nobody else has to date really offered anything in the way of practical advice, all those I have contacted have simply reiterated the standard procedure of bankrupcy. I can read that on any relevant website! Armed with a letter of authorisation from my partner I will be going down to the county court shortly to ask for copies of all the documentation relating to this case. I already spoke to the OR last Friday and advised him that we will be seeking to get this overturned and that I felt no action should be taken until then, and having learnt more since, I contacted him again yesterday to ask for it not to be published. As for the post, I'm not aware that much goes missing although I do trade myself and at least one parcel a month outgoing goes missing - the latest being a Special Delivery item. The Royal Mail did manage to lose 13 million items last year! That said, the firm hired by the council to bring the action to court have indicated that correspondence was hand delivered. Strange then that I had to ask the council for their name and address, I've never heard of them until making enquiries when we received the letter from the OR on Friday.

Yes, the more I look into it the more it seems you both might be correct. Apart from the lack of paperwork I am particularly focussing my attention that as the assets indeed exceed the debt - including everything else we owe, which is probably no more than 3 or 4k (apart from my own car loan) - by some considerable margin. We could have got a loan but preferred to plod on and try to get ahead. we were very nearly there too, that's what is so infuriating about having been saddled with a load more legal bills. Just for the record we got into this mess due to a six-year battle with her ex for possession of the property. We got it but not the result we wanted after a series of inept performances from three solicitors, 25k to pay him off and a 16k legal bill, hence the 35k remortgage. Just one nagging aspect which I haven't really touched upon - what happens to the house and mortgage, assuming the worst i.e. we don't get this overturned?

Interesting stuff, all pretty much what I have ascertained so far but it's very useful to have it in this form and I appreciate your efforts. I have already made arangements to visit the court office tomorrow and get copies of all the documentation relative to the case. I have also asked the council to send me any documentation they have. However I do think you are missing the point re. the payment to the council - I still cannot see any reason why anybody cannot (without the debtors knowledge, for example) repay a debt but the point here is that I am not repaying the council on her behalf, I am repaying them on MY behalf since my name is on the council tax bill, it's my money and I want to pay my bill. Remember no action has been taken against me personally so I am not under the court's/OR's restrictions. Indeed if I pay the whole amount at a bank there need not be any indication as to who paid the bill, just the fact that it was paid! The point I am actually making is that, rules or not, once I have paid it there is presumably very little they can do about it.

Thanks for that; the company hired by the council have stated that the relevant papers were hand delivered to our address on three occasions. They were not. This morning a car pulled up outside, took a photo of the front of the house and quickly drove off. My guess is that these bas**rds will now state at any appeal that the papers were served "and here's a photo to show which house we served them at". I will of course ask for proof of when the photo was taken but I doubt that my request will be enforced. Read the PM, thanks but with regard to not paying anybody anything surely given that the debt/bankrupcy is in my partners name, that does not prevent me in any way paying anything I want to anybody I want to? Incasso have already told me that they will not discuss the case with me as it is none of my business effectively so why should I follow the council's suggestion and try to deal through them? I know my partner doesn't legally have the option to do this, she must go through the receiver but I can do what the hell I like can't I? Once paid I can't help but feel that it will help any appeal as my partner can then claim that the debt that was the subject of the bankrupcy petition no longer exists in any event; at that point who paid it is surely irrelevant as long as it wasn't her. Although she has not yet had the meeting with the receiver, that's not until next Wednesday, 6th December. Who is to say she has even read her mail yet?

I spoke to somebody on that website and he didn't offer a free consultation but did offer to look over the court papers if I sent him copies. He suggested that his fees would be "several thousand pounds" and you would expect this from a company that deals with "bigger" clients. Having spent most of the day on the phone again to various helplines etc. and the council, I am getting nowhere. Remmember it is my partner that has been made bankrupt because the house is in her name. I have again made an offer of full payment to the council but again they have said I will have to deal with the company they hired, Incasso of Leeds, and make the payment to them as it is now out of the council's hands. However that company refuse to deal with me as the bankrupcy is in my partners name, not mine. After 5 phone calls to the council I have finally secured a meeting with them although I have been warned that ultimately it won't get me anywhere and I will be referred back to Incasso. My argument is that I am willing to pay and would have paid if I had known about the hearing in advance rather than land ourselves with a load of additional unneccesary debt in fees etc, which I understand are now likely to be between £3,000 and £20,000 and will again set us back years. I feel it is very wrong of the council to refuse to accept my offer of full payment and leave me in a position where I cannot reach an agreement with Incasso because they will not speak to me! I'm basically trying to find a reason to get the action overturned so that I will save a lot of additional expense but my partner briefly spoke to Incasso and they just aren't interested and say that everything now has to go through the official receiver. Nobody I speak to seems to think it is a good idea to try to get it overturned as all the other party have to do is say they issued the relevant documents. How do I prove we didn't get them? You can't! Frankly I am thinking of ignoring everybody and paying the council directly using one of the bank payment slips. the council say it's too late to do this but surely when the money is in their bank it's too late to return it. they have suggested that it has to be sent to the receiver but since I and not my partner will be making the payment I don't see how they can stop it. Hard to know what to do for the best. Been phoning CAB for three days now, you just can't get through.

Thanks for that, it is the only encouraging thing I have heard since Friday. Nobody else has yet recommended challenging this despite the fact I am able to pay in full (pending receipt of the funds which should be later this week). I am wondering at this stage if it is worth sidestepping the authorities and going to a bank with a payment slip and making the payment in full ahead of any annullment hearing. I would then also be able to present to the court that the payment has been made in full. Any thoughts on this, as it leaves us absolutely broke and unable to pay any further substantial costs if we spend all we have on this one payment? I had a brief look at that website, they sound awfully expensive.