I agree with you Tam, under common law you are not allowed to profit from an illegal act, therefore not only the interest and charges aimed at the cardholder are illegal but also the commision they charge retailers. I also agree with your standpoint on the amount borrowed, if that was borrowed in good faith it would be immoral for you to claim that money back. Indeed the three claims that I have sent in only claim the interest on the cards, (and charges) I haven't claimed the commision charges that are used when you use them as a cash card either, that was my choice. As regards the limitations act that's a difficult one, my gut feeling is that it doesn't apply to this because of the illegality aspect, remember unlike unfair charges, section 85 is an out and out law. I'm going to do some more work on theis one. Mike

Kids Kids please be quiet about this at the moment there are two that I'm dealing with under section 85, and really they don't know whats hitting them. As my signature says I'll post things when I've finsihed, don't forget the men in black are watching this, start PM ing or do things by email. Regardless of what we think this is a very public forum, with 'visitors' able to see what's going on. Mike I'm sorry I'm so excited, 85 hasn't even been repealled by the 2006 Act, it still inforce under it, forget arguing the toss about unfair charges, this is the real hot potato Mike

Yep thats him,

Unlucky LTW, the thing is like everything we do on here (and I know that this is realy patronising) we all are learning things, like asking for the break down of how the charges are levied before they enter the courtroom and asking an accountant to varify thier accuracy, lord knows there's enough of us on here to establish circles of knowledge without the men in black using the place to formulate their own strategy. I've been in educated circles long enough to realise that degree education does not equate with common sense, the fact is that this 'bloody good website' is a wealth of knowledge that they can can harvest to make their work alot easier and establish a reputation. The thing is the defence they have used can be used by us all to undermine anything they offer. The thing that we need to do is what they do, keep it under our hats, keep it secret and keep it simple. That's why I keep my signature secret, in three months of using this site I have learned so much about statutory law that I've used it to tie the men in black up in knots. I would suggest that we begin to establish secure hubs of knowledge, within which we can talk about things that the men in balck don't have access too. Mods if your reading this I don't know how this can be achieved, but I'm willing to help out big time. I for one are not willing to allow the pain and anguish that I (and my family) have experienced at the hands of these money grabbing bastards to affect other people. Keep your pecker up son. As Alfred Johnstone Fitzhugh Longbottom once said the longest journey started with the first trip. Mike

Wasn't a small asian gentleman was it, who uses an office in Harley St and the facilities at Highgate?

Good luck mate, I'll be watching too Brian!

If they've done that then they have broken the law. Reort them to the IC and let them investigate, but tell lowell your doing it! Mike

Reprt them when the 40 days are up Mike

Report them Mike

Ask for the original agreement. If they do try to close the account it could put a spanner in the works, since no original agreement, no account to close! Mike

AS an aside ask for the original agreement I did, they haven't supplied it so they've broken the law. I'm waiting for the statements to organise the claim at the moment its over £700. If you keep extending deadlines, they will stretch it as far as they can. Be strong, draw a line in the sand. Mike

Reply to post 3 Alison Regardless of the fact that they were the original lenedr or not, they have legal responsibility under the CCA 1974 to provide me with the information. As they have taken over the debt they take on the responsibility for the orginal legal status. End of story, anyway wheels are in motion that I can't divulge at present but will do when they come to fruition Mike

The account is closed thats the daft thing about it. I was defaulted in November 2003, but they were still updating the CRAs in May of 2004 Mike

Dear Stuarti & Podgydad There isn't a form for a CCA request, what you need to do is write to the bank that holds your account with a letter stating Could I ask that you supply me with a true copy of the agreement. I understand that this is my right under the legislation contained within section 77 (1) and section 78 (1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. I also understand that it is your obligation to provide me with a statement of account. I enclose a £1 postal order in payment of the statutory fee. The thing is that if the bank does not reply within 12 working days, you can legally withold any payment due to them since they are in default of the act. If they do not supply a copy within a month from the date of the letter then they have committed an offence, and the debt becomes legally unenforcable unless the bank gets the authority of a judge to reinforce the agreement. The thing is that when the bank is in default no inters or charges may be added to the account. CCA is jargon for 'Consumer Credit Act 1974', which governs some of he work that banks undertake, especially loans and credit cards. The thing is that if the CCA act is not fully complied with the Bank gets into a lot of hot water when they try to enforce the debt. As the letter that started this thread shows, RBS didn't have the necessary documentation to manage my account. This opens up a right can of worms, that really I can't talk about here since it's now obvious that financial institutions read threads to gain insight into waht is going on. I'll post any results when they come to fruition. Kind regards, Mike

I sent off a CCA request (with £1 PO) regarding an agreement that I was defaulted on in November 2003, but paid the lot off in April of 2004. I asked for the original agreement a) so I could argue that the default should be removed and b) that they couldn't hide behind the 'you agreed to the charges when you signed the agreement' when I went for the unlawful charges. Sent the letter on the 25th July, got this letter back today. Royal Bank of Scotland, CRA Enquiries Dept. RBS PO Box 6050 Southend on Sea SS99 1WL Dear Sir, Tahnk you for your letter, concerning information held with the Credit Reference Agencies for your credit card account. Please accept my apologies for the length of time it has taken to respond. Your request for documents contains some misconceptions about your entitlement to information in a specified form and our obligations to supply that information. So that there are no misunderstanding here we will set the record straight on the format of the information we are obliged to provide you. Your written request under section 78 (1) of the CCA must be accompanied by a payment of a fee of £1. (Funnily enough the PO was stapled to this letter) We are obliged to provide you with a 'true' copy of the credit agreement and a statement of financial information relating to the account, namely, the state of the account, amount currently due, with amounts and due dates of future payments taht still reuire to be made. In terms of theCC copy document, the true copy requirement can be satisfied by providing a copy at the date the card agreemnet was made. As I am unable to provide you with a copy agreement at the date the card agreement was made and a copy of the current terms and agreement, any remaining balance of the card account has been written off and your obligations to us under the agreement are discharged. I trust that the above clarifies matters for you. Yours... Miss H Bennett Account Manager. --------------------------------------------------------- Well there we are, not the greatest of letters and clearly not really well put together, nevertheless, I achieved my aims and now are sending off a Data Protection Act and a demand for the default to be removed. Its a pity I didn't have the info given by this site three years ago it would have saved me £10,000 Mike

Had a rather terse letter from Citfinancial today rejecting the claim except for the £65 cheque that they sent me. To be fair it seems a standard letter not personally adressing any of the issues oh well of to court. Mike

I've read this from top to toe and although the lad from Experian offers good arguments protecting a service that some may consider immoral, he still maintains the stance that data is not processed by them, and they do not process the information automatically. It is the lenders who do the processing (I precised that bit) But Mr Jones you do indeed process the information automatically (or do you have legions of calculator operators). How? By producing a 'credit score'. This facility may be open to anyone with permission and you pay a fee. I paid the handsome fee of £4.99 (payable to Experian) for mine the other day, it gave me a numerical score (out of 1000) and the website told me (in a much more professional manner though) that the higher the score the more likely it was that I would get credit. It may be argued that it's that score that the lenders have access to not the full file when you ask for credit. Its only when (some may surmise) your score falls below what the lender requires is your file looked in to, or rejected out of hand. In some ways this method makes sense, can you guess how long it would take to look through each file individually. The CRAs have, some may argue, produced an AUTOMATED PROCESS which speeds the lenders decision time. Less time, more profit. Well Mr Jones would you agree that this process is automatic and therefore covered under section 12 of the Data Protection Act, or does your company indeed have an army of manual calculators that work 24/7. Mike

Had a letter back from Experian today, a long letter that goes on, slightly different tack than Equifax. One thing that is obvious however, is that they must be getting an awful lot of section 12 requests at the moment, probably using the surelybonds format letter. How do I know that? The data controller said that I had mentioned the Human Rights Act in my original letter and went to great lengths to explain why it didn't apply. The interesting thing is I didn't mention the Human Rights Act, because I already knew that, so I enclosed my original letter with my reply:-D One thing that I will now do since it is probable that the Instiutions are starting to or already started reading the threads. So I'll post my story when it's all wrapped up. Mike

Actually had a reply back from Mounument today, said that they would be getting back to me regarding the 'complaint' - I asked for a copy of the original agreement! They said that they would be contacting me by the 20th September 2006! - they are in default at this point. Anyway I'll wait until the 30 days are up until I slap a DPA on them. As I have seen in a couple of other threads they have the habit of slapping defaults on people who challenge the charges, try a new tack, ask for the original agreement before the DPA, its an extra quid, but it saves a lot of correspondance if you know they don't have the original agreement. Mike

Fair play to you all. Well that was the only reply I had from any of the CRAs so I'm going to do what I promised a letter of complaint to the IC, you have to do what you threaten. Mike

Sorry this hasn't come out to well so I'll try to re dit it.Sent a section 12 notice on which they recieved on the 21st August, reply dated the 25th - remember a section 12 notice requires them to stop automatic processing of my information.The letter is as follows, (get a cuppa)Dear Mike 220359,Thank you ......Re: Searches,I acknowledge yor request for Equifax to prevent lenders from searching your Credit File however I would like to advise should you apply for Credit (yeah like!) with a company it is necessary for that company to carry out a Credit Search therefore as a CRA Equifax must provide this information and can not prevent any company from accessing your information automatically. However, to stop this automatic process, you can add a Notice of Correction, which causes your file to be manually reviewed.Re: Notice of Correction,A notice of correction is a service available to you within the CCA 1974 section 159. This is an explantory statement of up to 200 words written by you. What you say is up to you, but bear in mind that Credit Lenders are looking at your Credit Report to help them decide whther to lend you money etc. Any lenders searching your file in the future will see and be able to consider the content of your statement.Equifax can refer your Notice of Correction to the Office of the Information Commissioner for adjudication, if we think it is incorrect, defamatory, frivolous, scandalous or is for any other reason unsuitable.Should you wish for me to add a Notice of Correction please complete the enclosed...form.Re: Credit FileAnticipating you may wish to view a copy of your personal Report I have now arranged for a complimentary copy of your Credit File to be sent out to you, which you will recieve under a seperate cover. Once you have recieved this, if you have any qyueries please contact our Credit File Advice Line on 08700-100583 (the hell I will, phoning you will give you money!), and they can discuss any queries that you may have.Re: DisputeOnce you are in receipt of your Credit File, if you beleiev any of the netries are factually incorrect we have a disputes team who can investigate this further for you.If you would like us to (I'm getting bored now!) investigate any entries on your behalf, please complete the enclosed Notice of Dispute form, and return to the above address.............Once we are in receipt of your completed dispute form we will contact the supplier concerned to verify the accuracy of the details we hold and will add a notice to your Credit Report to show that the entry is in dispute. Once we receive a response from the subscribing client we will inform you of the outcome.I trust that this is satisfactory...................please contact me at the above.Yours Sincerely,Angela Sludds (printed signature)Escalation Advisor-------------------------------------------------------------------------------Well there it is, a very obtuse letter with elemental syntax errors. I shall go away and have a think about my reply (which will be posted on here), but the crux of the reply will be 'I gave you until the 29th August to comply with my request that all automatic processing of data, can you confirm that this has happened, if not letter to the Information Commissioner I'm afraid'One subtle nuance though is the implied legal obligation to provide information to potential lenders viz 'as a CRA Equifax must provide this information and can not prevent any company from accessing your information automatically' The letter is also contradictory in that it goes onto say 'However, to stop this automatic process, you can add a Notice of Correction, which causes your file to be manually reviewed.'As I said a very obtuse letter.Mike

Sent a section 12 notice on which they recieved on the 21st August, reply dated the 25th - remember a section 12 notice requires them to stop automatic processing of my information.The letter is as follows, (get a cuppa)Dear Mike 220359,Thank you ......Re: Searches,I acknowledge yor request for Equifax to prevent lenders from searching your Credit File however I would like to advise should you apply for Credit (yeah like!) with a company it is necessary for that company to carry out a Credit Search therefore as a CRA Equifax must provide this information and can not prevent any company from accessing your information automatically. However, to stop this automatic process, you can add a Notice of Correction, which causes your file to be manually reviewed.Re: Notice of Correction,A notice of correction is a service available to you within the CCA 1974 section 159. This is an explantory statement of up to 200 words written by you. What you say is up to you, but bear in mind that Credit Lenders are looking at your Credit Report to help them decide whther to lend you money etc. Any lenders searching your file in the future will see and be able to consider the content of your statement.Equifax can refer your Notice of Correction to the Office of the Information Commissioner for adjudication, if we think it is incorrect, defamatory, frivolous, scandalous or is for any other reason unsuitable.Should you wish for me to add a Notice of Correction please complete the enclosed...form.Re: Credit FileAnticipating you may wish to view a copy of your personal Report I have now arranged for a complimentary copy of your Credit File to be sent out to you, which you will recieve under a seperate cover. Once you have recieved this, if you have any qyueries please contact our Credit File Advice Line on 08700-100583 (the hell I will, phoning you will give you money!), and they can discuss any queries that you may have.Re: DisputeOnce you are in receipt of your Credit File, if you beleiev any of the netries are factually incorrect we have a disputes team who can investigate this further for you.If you would like us to (I'm getting bored now!) investigate any entries on your behalf, please complete the enclosed Notice of Dispute form, and return to the above address.............Once we are in receipt of your completed dispute form we will contact the supplier concerned to verify the accuracy of the details we hold and will add a notice to your Credit Report to show that the entry is in dispute. Once we receive a response from the subscribing client we will inform you of the outcome.I trust that this is satisfactory...................please contact me at the above.Yours Sincerely,Angela Sludds (printed signature)Escalation Advisor-------------------------------------------------------------------------------Well there it is, a very obtuse letter with elemental syntax errors. I shall go away and have a think about my reply (which will be posted on here), but the crux of the reply will be 'I gave you until the 29th August to comply with my request that all automatic processing of data, can you confirm that this has happened, if not letter to the Information Commissioner I'm afraid'One subtle nuance though is the implied legal obligation to provide information to potential lenders viz 'as a CRA Equifax must provide this information and can not prevent any company from accessing your information automatically' The letter is also contradictory in that it goes onto say 'However, to stop this automatic process, you can add a Notice of Correction, which causes your file to be manually reviewed.'As I said a very obtuse letter.Mike

Further to post 241.Theoretically, that may be the case, but there is nowhere under the DPA allowing anyone to infur or make assumptions. The data has to be stored as cold facts only.Mike

Hey forget it lets get back to the matter in hand, if the pa****tes want to set themselves up in business, let them. It's not worth worrying about Mike

Uniboy, just one other point. The debt may not be written off after the time intervals you talked about, it just becomes unenforceable under present law, unless you have written confirmation that the debt is indeed written off. Mike