AIC Hounding SampleX... Bad to worse!

[SampleX]

Hi.

 

Posted this in another thread and was advised to post here...

 

----------------------------------------------------

 

Oh boy, does my financial situation seem to be getting worse.

 

As if I don't have enough of these people to deal with, having had my business collapse completely and have to close...

 

I had a credit card with RBS which hit its £3k limit and I couldn't pay back very well. I DID make an arrangement to repay £60 per month (couldn't afford, but managed) until a few months back when I ran out of money altogether... By this time, the £3k debt was down to £2100...

 

Lately I've had a guy called 'Mr Kennedy' from AIC on behalf of RBS start plaguing me with phone calls. In one of them he said to me 'we want immediate repayment of the full balance.' I told him he must be joking if he thought I had that kind of money and they were more than welcome to take me to court and get a CCJ, and I'd happily tell the court that I could afford £15 per month. He assured me 'we don't WANT to take you to court, sir, we don't want to put you into that difficulty... We just want our money back NOW.' He even told me to 'go away and think about it over the weekend.' When he rang me back I told him nothing had changed. I got told yet again that he wanted all the money now, and didn't want to take me to court over it, as if this was something I could easily do. He even had the audacity to ask me what assets I had so that RBS could have their money back. I told him to get in line behind much bigger fish. So then I wrote to him, having been told that he could not authorise a payment plan, only full repayment, and could not authorise a write off on the debt of more than 15%. I asked for a write-off of 60% and that I would find the remainder of the money somehow. I also explicitly stated that I would only communicate in writing, and would not 'deal' on the phone.

 

I have had no response except a letter to say 'ring Mr Kennedy' and several phone calls a day either from Glasgow numbers, or from caller withheld numbers leaving messages to ring someone at Allied Coercion Services (or whatever they're called) and now I'm getting text messages to my mobile to ring a Mr Gallagher IMMEDIATELY with my AIS reference number.

 

How on earth do I deal with these people? I've been turned into a nervous wreck by the bullying, head against brick wall, frustrating tactics of the call centres and debt collectors... Yet they won't either give up and just put it in writing, or put it in writing anyway. It would almost be a relief to get a petition from a county court for liability on the debt, because at least then I could write back and say that I admit the debt but have limited means to pay it, and make a token repayment offer which, I understand, the courts tend to look on favourably, even if it is £20 per month...

 

I need advice sharpish, please. Anyone with any experience of these wigglers and their tactics, who might know how to deal with them...

 

Just when I think I've managed to get a means of dealing with one of these things, another one emerges to defy even basic decency and try to hound me into an early grave...

[SampleX]

Right... More advice needed.

 

Last week I sent out (registered post or recorded delivery ('signed for')) letters to AIC who claim to be handling this account on behalf of RBS...

 

Those letters included a CCA letter and a harrassment by telephone 'please put this in writing, if your ring me or text me again I will interpret it as an act of harrassment and report you for it' letter...

 

Those letters should have been delivered by Monday.

 

Wednesday, today, I get a phone call...

 

Previously AIC used the Glasgow telephone code without masking it. Today it was 'caller withheld'. The phone call was no longer from Mr Kennedy or Mr Gallagher, but from some woman. She wanted to speak to me, but unfortunately I wasn't available. So I asked who was calling. She gave a first name that I forgot to write down, and said she was from AIC Ltd. (Allied). So she asked if I could go get me. So I said no. So she asked if I could tell myself that I needed to ring her urgently, and I said 'I'm sure that Mr SampleX would say 'put your comments in writing.' So she said 'but I really need to speak to him urgently.' So I said again 'I'm sure Mr SampleX has told you before that you are under explicit instructions to put this in writing.' So she said 'we can't do that, we need to speak to Mr SampleX.' So I said 'well, you can't.' So she said 'Can I ask who I'm speaking to.' So I said 'No you can't.' So she said 'right then, thank you, bye' and hung up.

 

About four minutes later, I got a call from home (where I currently live with my parents courtesy of my debt) and where we've been avoiding withheld and 0845 and 0800 numbers like the plague thanks to caller display, to be told that my mum had let the rules slip, and had answered an 'UNKNOWN' number, and had this scottish chick on the phone asking for me. She said 'he's not here.' She was asked 'when is he going to be home.' So she said 'I don't know and I wouldn't discuss it with you anyway.' She was told 'we need to speak with him urgently can you get him to ring us' and so my mum said 'no... put it in writing... he's doing everything in writing.' The response to this was a lie, that they had written to me and had no response... My mum said 'I know he's written to you... I've seen him do it, and I've posted the letters.' So this bint says 'well, if we're to write to him, could you confirm your postcode at which we can do that.' My mum was flummoxed for a while as to whether the address I used was my old address or their home address, but then remembered my instructions to NEVER give out personal details to callers from companies, and so she said 'well, you tell me what post code you've got and I'll tell you if it's right or not.' The response, naturally, was 'well, I can't do that because of Data Protection Act, I'm not allowed to...' So my mum said 'And I'm not allowed to either!' and hung up.

 

Now...

 

The letter was sent and a minimum of two days have cleared since it should have been delivered. Was my emphatic message NOT clear enough? I have had TWO phone calls from them today, even though they've tried to mask the use of their telephone numbers, they've still made the calls.

 

What do I do now? If this is against the law, if it constitutes harrassment, then I want to report it. I want to make it as hard as possible for these shysters to stay in business, and to keep inflicting this misery on people like me and my family.

[SampleX]

Help. Please. Total n00b drowning in forum pages...

[SampleX]

AIC are STILL making phone calls to me every two days, most of which I ignore, some of which catch me by surprise, and I always get the same abrupt, rude, ignorant argument from people who clearly do not have enough intelligence to get a job with an ethical company that has some integrity.

 

It's the same old thing... confirm your details... we can't help you if you don't confirm your details... we don't write letters, we settle matters on the phone... if you don't accept our phone calls it will be YOUR fault the course of action we take next.

 

To date...

 

NOT A SINGLE LETTER

 

AT ALL

 

NONE

 

ZIP

 

NADA

 

18th March the telephone harrassment and CCA request letters were sent registered post and received in due course. The £1 fee was taken and not returned (I made sure it was a pound coin so as to make it impossible not to 'cash' the fee). No response whatsoever. The phone went quiet for a few weeks, but started back in again about 4 weeks ago with an absolute vengeance.

 

Does anyone have any tips on where I go from here... What can/can't AIC do to me. How enforceable is the debt? Who do I report them to in order to make life miserable for them? And will it do any good anyway?

 

All help appreciated... I'm starting to get a taste for this 'stinging the bastards back' thing... Oh, how they want to pile debt on you when you're doing well, and oh how they want it back when you hit rock bottom.

 

Blood, stone... oh well, at least the stone can have some fun on his way to debtors prison...

[SampleX]

Just confirmed that AIC signed for the two letters (in one envelope) on 28th March 2006. By my maths, that means they've had two months to respond appropriately.

[SampleX]

I've actually trained my dad to do the same with any 'telephone call centre' calls that he gets...

 

When they ask for you to give them your personal details you say 'no... under the Data Protection Act I am not at liberty to give out my details to any unauthorised personnel unless they can confirm my details. Can you confirm my details for me, please?'

 

They'll invariably say 'According to Data Protection (most of them have never READ the Act, so them quoting it is as meaningless as declaring faith in the God of the Planet Zog) we cannot give out your details' at which point you say 'really? me too (enthusiastically) and I'm so pleased I've got the most secure personal details going. Thank you for confirming that your company's data protection policy is so secure. So do you have anything else to talk about?'

 

I heard my dad fire off a great one the other day...

 

He's got a bank account with a certain bank owned by the **** at RBOS who operate from an Indian call center, and they've pulled a doozy... Some dick at the bank, when entering his data into their system got his DOB wrong, so EVERY time they ring him up they decline his security details as incorrect - he's had to go to the branch to give ID and etc.etc. and the branch don't ever seem to be able to get the data centre to update the details so he can get 4 Indian callers a week telling him there's a bloody security issue...

 

Anyway, he gets this call... I can only fill in what I think was asked on the other end, and I'll put those in brackets, and what I heard I'll leave without parentheses - it might make someone laugh.

 

(Click... pause... Hello? Mr SampleX Sr?)

Depends who's asking

(Can you confirm that this is Mr SampleX Sr)

Well, you're calling the number - Do YOU think I'm Mr SampleX Sr?

(I'm asking to speak to Mr SampleX Sr, can you please get him?)

You're speaking to him, who are you?

(Can you confirm that you are Mr SampleX Sr)

Maybe. Maybe not. More to the point, can you confirm who YOU are?

(Can I please speak to Mr SampleX Sr)

You can't speak to anyone unless you confirm your identity.

(For Data Protection I'm not at liberty to give any details out until you can confirm that you are Mr SampleX Sr)

So you can't tell me who you are and what you're calling about, but you want me to give you all my personal details out over the phone.

(That is correct, sir) [-----_SampleX's Note_------- We've all heard these Indians speak, so you can hear that this is exactly the kind of thing they would be saying...]

In that case it's going to be a very short conversation

(This is N** W*** bank, I need for Mr SampleX Sr to confirm his identity before we can discuss this matter further)

Very well... I'm Mr SampleX Sr, I'm a white caucasian male, with brown hair and blue eyes, blood type 0 positive, 13 stone, 62 years of age, I live in a house. Is there anything else you want to know?

(What is your mother's maiden name?)

I can't remember, she's been dead a while so I can't ask her either.

(What is your date of birth)

What's the point of giving you that because the date I give you isn't going to correspond with what is on your system!

(I need you to confirm your date of birth please Mr SampleX Sr)

XXth of the XXth 19XX...

(That does not correspond with what we have on our system)

Told you so...

(Unless you can give me the correct date of birth I am sorry we cannot discuss this further...)

Correct date of birth? Are you saying you know my date of birth better than I know my date of birth? Are they experts on dates of birth in India, eh? Isn't it possible that your computer systems have it wrong?

(No. You have given me wrong date of birth sir, you need to give me correct date of birth)

I don't think this conversation is going anywhere, do you?

(We can make progress if you give me your correct date of birth)

I already have! And I'm bored talking to you now, so bye bye... Elvis has left the building!

 

 

But it's right...

 

The whole telephone call centre system relies on one thing and one thing only... your compliance.

 

We should start a movement of non-compliance. Simply issue a statement verbally that we will not discuss personal and private information over the phone, in the interests of Data Protection, unless we are shown two valid forms of identification which prove the legitimacy of the caller (a physical impossibility) and to conduct future communications in a more authenticated manner please...

 

In that case we're not avoiding calls, or refusing to pay, we're simply insisting on preserving our privacy and security.

 

A call centre rings up and straight away they ask for you by name, and then to confirm your most personal security ID details... They COULD BE ANYBODY!!!!

 

Legitimate reason to say, when they ask 'Is this Mr/Mrs Sputnik?' to ask for them to legitimately identify themselves by proving that they have the same details on you as they are asking you to confirm to them. They can't, of course, do that... But neither will you. If none of the public will play the game of trust with them, their business is over... Imagine every person in Britain saying 'I'm sorry, I don't discuss these things on the phone...' every time a call centre makes a call... Productivity rates in the call centres would plummet, there'd be nothing for them to do, because Britain just refused to take their call...!

 

Imagine that.

 

You could bring down the entire telephone pester system just by exercising your right to privacy.

 

I am unaware of ANY law which could forcibly demand that you divulge your personal data to ANYONE over the telephone. If a government agency wants to know, you can invite them to use the information they have on you to come and find you in person, and you'll gladly exchange suitable forms of proof of identity... But call centres? Gimme a break. We owe them nothing and they can demand nothing from us...

 

Time for the worm to turn?

[SampleX]

OK... I DO like that letter, BUT... AIC stopped being involved altogether, and have passed it to another DCA... do I still have any grounds to claim the agreement is null and void in the absence of paperwork on the basis of AIC's involvement, or does the whole thing start again, now?

[SampleX]

And what do I do about the fact that AIC who may have been only 'acting' on behalf of the bank in question still violated a legal obligation, even though they've forwarded it on.

[SampleX]

What if the original DCA has not put anything to me in writing other than the usual 'your account has been passed to us, please ring us so we can help you pay us.'

 

I did find AIC in a serious breach of the rules of debt collection from the OFT... aparrently they're not supposed to make the situation unworkable... 'Mr Kennedy' did just that... he pushed me into a cyclical argument where I could pay in full, or... well... pay in full... I kept telling him to take me to court, and he kept saying 'we can avoid all that if you pay in full'... He was not in a 'position' to negotiate on behalf of his client (RBS), only to obtain payment in full.

 

If I remember rightly, they're not allowed to demand a singular, unacheiveable course of action, or tell you to borrow money from friends or family in order to comply...

[SampleX]

I'll give a testimony now...

 

I'm actually in no better a position than I was when I started looking here, and certainly am no closer to any 'arrangements'...

 

But how I feel about everything has changed a lot.

 

Through the strength and encouragement that I found here, I've been able to deal with things in a different way...

 

These people no longer intimidate me.

 

Am I avoiding them?

 

Absolutely.

 

Am I paying them anything?

 

Absolutely not.

 

Do I acknowledge that I owe a debt?

 

Certainly.

 

When the DCA's in my different circumstances start to treat me like a rational, thinking, adult human being who is not manipulated by sneaky tactics and near-criminal business practice, then they'll get a response on the same level. Frankly, if I owe a bank £2000, or a credit card, there is absolutely NO REASON IN THE WORLD why multi-billion pound corporations that specialise in peddling slavery and debt shouldn't accept a repayment of £25 per month because they've managed to collapse someone personally and financially. These corporations don't just want money, they want that level of control... an endebted society is an immobile society and a vulnerable society and is infinitely more likely to continue in debt for a lifetime and pay a lifetime of interest. Financial freedom is empowerment, and that is the last thing the finance houses want.

 

So the way I figure it, they're actually happier with me in debt and in default, than they would be if I settled.

 

Every single letter, every single phone call is filled with rhetoric to make me feel like a failure, like a criminal, like I've perpetrated some heinous deed against them. Well screw them! I don't care anymore. This has made my life miserable enough and I came to a grim realisation in the summer... with the exception of one debt, which is secured on my parents property (and which is being repaid at a maximum possible amount)... when you've got nothing left, you've got nothing left to lose. So now I treat them exactly like that... want to threaten court action? don't threaten it... do it... lets talk to the judge. Want to threaten bailiffs...? Fine... when you've jumped through all the legal hoops I give you to jump through, then try to find a property that I own, or rent, and try to prove that I actually own anything at all... and then see if a court will let you auction off my clothes and my toothbrush and prevent me from eating food so that a bank can make its money back... there is such a thing as bankruptcy, and it's not the worst thing that can happen to you.

 

Here's an encouragement... AIC DO go away. They ARE replaced by someone else, but they DO go away, which to me is proof that if they COULD execute the debt, they would... but they can't, or they aren't, and therefore it ends up being passed on elsewhere, and you just have to get used to playing the same games with CCA and such.

 

First thing I do, now, when I get a letter from a new DCA introducing themselves, is send them the telephone harrassment letter. Just put a warning shot across their bow, that you know what you're doing.

 

And the trick is to teach yourself instinctively to tune in to every telephone based pitch (and I mean EVERY) be it sales, or cold calling, or debt collection, and never never let yourself be led into giving a scrap of detail away...

 

'Is that Mr SampleX?'

- 'Who's calling, please?'

 

Answer a question with a question - there is no law whatsoever that demands that you give them what they want. When they realise they're being unproductive, they soon go away... They keep ringing, but by now you know their numbers, and you're ignoring them and making a log of each and every attempt to call you. DO NOT confirm your identity in any way... it will annoy the hell out of them. Run rings round them and have fun, by all means. Bottom line, you have, actually, far more power than they do... you have your finger on the bankruptcy button and you can put an end to the whole thing as soon as you get tired of playing the game. If they COULD exercise the power they claim, then the country wouldn't have record numbers of people struggling with debt, it would have record numbers of people automatically and urgently bankrupted by debt collection agencies. These people's businesses thrive on, they exist solely on, their ability to bully you into giving them money to justify their existence. I strongly suspect that AIC is one such company struggling to justify existence... they seem to be hired bullies, unable to negotiate, not in ownership of their own portfolio of debts... all growl and no teeth.

 

And as you've seen, as rude and insulting as hell.

 

But here's the thing... if you don't confirm your identity, they can't talk to you. If they send you a letter or card saying 'ring us' then send them a letter written on your behalf (and pp. the signature)(with a slight delay on it - slight delays help string out an inefficient process) stating that Mr Yourself will not conduct such discussions by telephone and is prepared to review the particulars of the situation they are raising in writing only, at which time the details will be reviewed by your legal counsel...

 

They'll be confused as hell, because they can't discuss matters with you without knowing its you they're talking to, they cannot disclose information to third parties, so they're not sure who they're writing to, and they don't pay operatives to review cases and write letters, they only have a stock of standard letters to send out, so they could just end up repeating themselves and entering into an infinite loop. Nontheless, persist in the vexatious responses, because as long as you've got a record of asking them for perfectly reasonable clarification, their avoidance of fulfilling your reasonable requests is going to prove more troublesome to them at enforcement than it is to you.

 

Imagine having a log of you sending 20 letters stating (on your behalf) that Mr Yourself requires written discourse to clarify the matter of alleged debt and will not discuss the matter by telephone in order to have a record of events which is open to scrutiny and documented etc.etc.etc... same letter every time, with an added comment of frustration making note that the last request for information has been ignored, accompanied by 20 'please ring us so we can discuss this situation' letters, and THEN being taken to court... who do you think is going to look like they're wasting the court's time? The court can't make you talk to the DCA on the phone... they CAN hammer the DCA for vexatious practice and litigation and take the view that since the onus is on them to acheive a response, they should have done exactly what you reasonably required of them. We do still have SOME rights, if not many.

 

Chin up.

 

For many of us this is already the worst it can be, the lowest we can go, and you have to find a way to keep smiling through it all... I actually find avoiding them, or giving them hoops to jump through is just so much fun... I really love it.

 

And in the meanwhile, there's no point me offering them money I can't pay, or admitting debt that I can't reach arrangements on... so I string along the process, and I'm awaiting a claim against a large UK corporation for damage done to goods in my business as a result of a utilities malfunction which closed my failing business down earlier this year... it might not be a lot, but here's the deal... if I get £6000, and I have £12000 debt, then each creditor will receive a letter stating that this is the situation, they'll have a full disclosure of all my debts, and all the amounts, and will each be offered a 50% settlement with a 50% write off, on the condition that my credit rating reflects that the defaulted debts are now satisfied...

 

They can accept it (if and when I get it (I certainly hope it's not less than £6000) or they can reject it. If they reject it, then that money will go in a bank account, and each and every one of them will be told to sing for their supper, and when I go to court I will bring out the same proposals, and a statement of the money (which hopefully will have earned a little interest in a nice savings account (beautiful irony will be that the account will be with a bank that I'm not endebted to)) and make the same offer to the court, and hope that a judge finds it to be a reasonable offer.

 

At the time of making an offer, I'll also then chase the credit card charges back, not from the DCA but from the banks, and with any luck, I'll sting both bank AND DCA... way I see it, if the bank has sold my debt to DCA, they still owe me the billed charges and CANNOT say that they haven't been paid for them, because they accepted settlement in full and final payment of my debt, whether reduced and paid by a DCA or not... we could discuss the legal ramifications of the banks insisting that the account was never paid and was defaulted and therefore no charges are due for refund, because if that were the legal case the question would be 'well, who the buggery is charging me for all these bank charges then, if not the bank...?' and that would, I suspect, be very legally dubious....

 

Best of luck in your dealings with these wigglers... May you confound them at every stage, may the smile return to your face, and may you find as much enjoyment in making them run in circles as I do. I'd love to see it turned into a national sport...