PC23 v Natwest: Help needed **WON**

[pc23]

Hi,

 

I am at stage 2 - but using a standard letter published by my local paper. I am claiming just under £8k, and sent the following letter...

 

Penalty & unfair charges – request for refund for XXXXXXX

(Sort code: XXXXX Account no: XXXXXXX)

According to my records I have been charged £7870.50 in paid referral fees and charges for items returned unpaid since 14th February 2001.

 

0n April 5, 2006, the Office of Fair Trading (OFT) announced that default charges which are set at more than £12 will be presumed to be unfair and unenforceable in terms of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 (SI. 1999/2083). Charges above this sum will be subject to legal action by the OFT (press release 68/06 – online here: Current credit card default charges unfair

 

The OFT stated that a charge is not fair simply because it is below this sum and I believe that a reasonable charge would be 50 pence for the reasons set out below. Please refund my charges as a matter of urgency.

 

I would respectfully submit that if your organisation does not agree to immediately refund all unfair charges applied to my account, it will not meet the “fit and proper person” test to hold a consumer credit licence under the Consumer Credit Act 1974. In that eventuality, I will submit a 1974 Act complaint to the OFT.

 

Separately, I am of the view that your charges represent a penalty and are therefore irrecoverable at common law. In the Scottish case of Castaneda and Others v. Clydebank Engineering and Shipbuilding Co. Ltd. (1904) 12 SLT 498, the House of Lords held that a contractual party can only recover damages for actual or liquidated losses incurred from a breach of contract. This is also the position in English law: Dunlop Pneumatic Tyre Co Ltd v New Garage and Motor Co Ltd [1915] AC 79.

 

Your charges do not reflect any actual loss, instead they appear to represent a lucrative profit-making scheme. In particular, charges were applied after I entered into a transaction(s) without sufficient funds in my account. However, payment was declined by you and therefore, actual loss is the cost of automatically sending me a computer-generated letter. I would respectfully submit that is valued at no more than 50 pence.

 

UK banks have recently given evidence to the House of Commons Treasury Committee on how bank charges are calculated: “The costs are going to pay for all the people we have who pursue debt, collect debt, speak to customers and chase payments. The way these charges are arrived at is by taking these total costs and making some assumptions about the volume that is going to come through to arrive at the individual charges.” (second report, 25 January, 2005, paragraph 50 – online here: House of Commons - Treasury - Second Report

 

Accordingly, the charges applied to my account are not a reasonable pre-estimate of the bank’s loss in relation to my account. No one has had to look at my account or telephone me. No one has had to collect anything. Your charges would appear to represent a device to recover global losses (for example, loan defaulters, bad debt write-off, including commercial lending in, and outwith, the UK).

 

Please refund all charges applied to my account from the start of 2001 within the next seven days. I reserve the right to commence court proceedings without any further notice and to seek an additional award for distress and inconvenience, together with legal expenses.

Yours faithfully

 

I have had no response and it's been two weeks and am a bit unsure of my next move. There is a third letter in the local rag, but I am not sure whether I can use this as it informs the banks of a claim (but in the instructions says only claims up to £5k can be made in small claims court). Any advice would be appreciated...

 

Paul

[Guest NATTIE]

Where did you send the letter? Any letter on NatWest should be sent to Customer Relations Unit Borehamwood

[pc23]

Sent it to my branch.

[Guest NATTIE]

I did think you might. I would use an LBA from here to send to NatWest with a schedule of charges(was that sent with the previous letters?)

[pc23]

No... My next step was to inform the bank I intend to take legal action unless charges are refunded (and include a copy of the schedule of charges). Are there Natwest specifc LBAs? As the ones I have seen just say insert address and I assumed I should just send it via the branch? Should I resend letter 2?

[Guest NATTIE]

Re send the L.B.A from the templates section here with schedule of charges to Customer Relations Unit Borehamwood and I think that you will be in victory row.

[pc23]

Thanks Nattie. I have done exactly that, but I have updated my charges. What should I do next, start preparing to launch court action? And can I still go via county court even though my claim is over £5k?

[pc23]

I sent my letter of last week, now just waiting for 14 days to lapse. Is there anything else I can be doing in the meantime??

[pc23]

Stuart Highley has written asking me to give Natwest more time to respond. My 14 days since sending the LBA are up on Monday. Any advice would be appreciated...

[Michael Browne]

My 14 days since sending the LBA are up on Monday.

File at court any time after. 8k will be Fast Track where you are liable for up to £750 costs if you loase, but there is Standard Disclosure. The bank would be forced to reveal a breakdown of their costs and rather than do that, they settle.

[pc23]

Am filing at court on Wednesday. Have filled in N1 and copied three times. Do I give this (plus schedule x 3) all to the court? And do I need to send copies to the bank?

[Michael Browne]

Do I give this (plus schedule x 3) all to the court?

Yes, they will stamp 1 and send/give it back to you

And do I need to send copies to the bank?

No, the court will serve 1 of the other copies on the bank

[zootscoot]

Hi PC

 

Costs in fast track can be over 750. The fixed cost rule relates to trial only not legal costs in preparing the defence. Although as of yet Natwest have been paying out no matter the value of the claim.

 

Best of luck

 

Zoot

[pc23]

Thanks guys... here goes.

[pc23]

Have I messed up? I sent my LBA with the simple excel spreadsheet requesting charges plus simple interest at 8% APR (but no contractual interest)... I have just re-read guidelines and they say you should NOT do this - but ask for contractual interest.

 

However, since the 14 days are up... I have filed my N1 including charges, interest at 8% APR, daily interest until settlement and court costs - but should I have included contractual interest and therefore have I messed things up before getting to court!?

[fendyweather]

No you havent messed up. The general concensus of opinion is when sending LBA and Prelim dont include the 8%. You can say contractual and include them but dont do the 8%. Well thats the recommendation, but even if you asked for 8% it wont be thrown out. Your'e ok. The fact is this, if the bank had come back to you and offered you just your charges alone, you would have had to accept, but if they didnt come back and offer you your full charges on their own then your ok to have filed for the 8% at court, even though you asked for it in your prelim and LBA. Its ok. Dont worry. Its fine. I did exactly the same thing, because the Martin Lewis website says to do that. I only found this CAG just after I had done my prelim, so it was then I realised I shouldnt have asked for 8% from the outset, but Nattie assured me it was ok. I hadnt messed up. That is just the recommended course of action, but its not set in stone. You will be fine. Dont worry.

[saint-luco]

did you at any point tell the bank you were claiming contractual interest, this must be done from the start, as for adding s69 interest you only do this when filing a claim at court, i wouldnt worry too much about the spreadsheet sent with the lba now, because you have now filed,

[pc23]

Many thanks fendywether - that's reassuring . I have other things (credit cards, other banks etc) to do. Should I ask for charges plus contractual interest... then only add 8% when I go to court? And should I add 8% instead of contractual interest (or as well as) .

[pc23]

Saint Luco - No haven't mentioned contractual interest at all... should I be fussed about it?

[saint-luco]

i was'nt with my bank claim, but for my cc claim i am very interested

[fendyweather]

On banks, you can ask for contractual interest with prelim and lba but not 8%, and then when you file at court, you have a choice, you can either go for contractual or 8%, the choice is yours. Contractual is a bit more involved to do, than 8%, Im not that brave I just stuck to 8% but theres a few stories on here if you read of people who have gone for contractual and won. And some pending at the mo. Just read read read on this site. You will soon know what to do. xxx

[pc23]

Thanks Fendy and Saint!

[pc23]

I have filed my claim for just under £10k at the County Court. What should I do next, and am I liable for any more fees and costs if things go pear-shaped??? I have seen £750 mentioned, but can't find this on the court website anywhere?

[saint-luco]

as its outside of small claims, if you lose you are liable. but they wont even go into court

[pc23]

Thanks Saint. Is there anything I need to be doing at this moment in preparation of court hearing... or just waiting.