reclaiming charges court claim - The "Claim Too vague" defence and guide to amending a claim

[GaryH]

If you have not yet filed, it is advised that you use an N1 form direct to your local court, with CAG's new particulars of claim. Many judges seem to be rejecting MCOL (MoneyClaim Online) claims of late and requesting more substantial POC, so to avoid any potential complications later on its far better to avoid MCOL completely. However, if you've already filed on MCOL, read on......

 

Recently, Lloyds (as well as some other banks) are increasingly defending claims primarily on the basis that the claim is; "not adequately particularised, 'embarrasing', too vague" etc, etc. This is usually a 14 point defence with the standard 'service charge' defence following on.

 

You will usually get this defence if you have filed on Moneyclaim online, regardless of whether or not you sent a schedule of charges. This is clearly a scare tactic and in most cases should be ignored and no action to amend your claims particulars is necessary.

 

However, If you did'nt use the correct MCOL template from the library which states the statutory and common law basis of the claim, you will probably need an amendment, depending on exactly what you used as your particulars. To amend your claim you will need to submit an application on form N244. See the section below for a guide to applying for an amendment.

 

If you did use the proper template, including in it your account number, then your claim should be adequately particularised. See below for a response for inclusion on the AQ, which refutes the defence's claim and that you should consider using.

 

If you used the template but did'nt send a schedule to MCOL, send a schedule to the court and SC&M ASAP, then use the AQ response below, but take out the bit that says you previously sent your schedule to MCOL.

 

If you used the template and sent a schedule to the MCOL court (Northampton) I would suggest responding in your AQ with this;

 

ALLOCATION QUESTIONNAIRE N149 / N150

 

 

Section G / J Other information

 

The defendant in its defence contends that this claim is not suitably particularised and the statement of claim is “embarrassing” and shows no reasonable grounds for the claim to be brought. The Claimant disagrees with this contention entirely. The claims particulars clearly state the statutory and common law provisions on which this claim relies, and the claimant will of course elaborate upon the claim particulars at such time as is required upon the direction of the court. Further, contrary to the contention of the defendant, the relevant numbers of the account in question were clearly identified in the claimant’s particulars of claim, and a full schedule of the charges which form the sum claimed from the defendant was sent to Northampton bulk court on the day of issue for inclusion alongside the claims particulars. Additionally, the defendant was served with this information on two occasions previously within a 28 day period allowed by the claimant to attempt to resolve the issue prior to the commencement of this litigation. In the interest of expediency, I have attached another copy of the schedule to this allocation questionnaire.

 

As is known to the defendant, I am a litigant in person in this claim. It is respectfully submitted that the contentions of the defendant are highly likely to be an attempt to distress and intimidate, rather than presenting any valid or reasonable objections to the clarity of the Particulars of claim.

 

 

Follow the above with the guide notes from the templates library, ie, the request for allocation to the small claims track and for the draft directions.

 

As ever with all templates, before you just copy and paste, ensure you make slight amendments if any part does not apply. For instance, some of the defences do not contain the word "embarrasing", so if thats the case with yours leave that bit out.

 

There will not be enough room for all this on the form, so attach a seperate sheet, ensuring that your claim details are marked at the top. Don't forget to attach a schedule. It is also recommended that you send a copy of the AQ and the attachments to Lloyds solicitors.

 

Beware that in some cases the court may well order you to elaberate on your POC anyway. If this is the case you should submit the new POC from the templates library. Note that if the court has ordered you to replace or amend then you do not need a formal application or a fee.

 

 

AMENDING A CLAIM

 

 

The Civil Procedure Rules require that your POC's contain a concise statement of the basis of your claim in law and fact. This should include reference to the common law and relevant statutes on which the claim relies - ie the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999, the Unfair Contracts (Terms) Act 1977 and the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982. It should also include your account number.

 

Here is an example of a POC template that would almost certainly not be regarded as adequate in the eyes of the court -

 

The claiment claims the repayment of unlawful bank charges for the period **/**/** to **/**/** amounting to £*** for direct debit, standing order, over draft interest and over draft excess fees. The claiment also claims interest on this amount under section 69 of the County Courts Claim Act 1984 at the rate of 8% a year from **/**/** to **/**/** of £*** and also interest at the same rate upto the date of judgement or earlier payment at the rate of 8%. The claiment also claims the court fee of £***.

 

If you used inadequate POC's such as the above and then the Bank defends on the basis that the claim is "too vague", they certainly have a valid case and what would probably then happen is that the court will order you to elaberate by providing further information.

 

However, the court does have the power, if it see's fit, to strike out your claim without warning. This is unlikely and has'nt happened yet as far as I'm aware, but to be safe its probably advisable to amend your claim upon receipt of the defence.

 

If you have decided what you did use was inadequate and needs amending, you need to make an application for the amendment on a form N244 - http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/n244_0400.pdf. This will cost you a non-refundable fee of £35.

 

Heres a guide for completion of the N244 -

Top left hand box:

 

1. Tick c), without a hearing

 

Leave the rest blank

 

Part A:

 

I ***** (the claimant)

 

(that....) allows an amendment to the above claim in respect of the claim particulars

 

(because....) the claimant did not adequately particularise his claim in that he did not specify the common law and statutory provisions upon which the claim relies.

 

Part B:

 

tick 'evidance in part C' box

 

Part C:

 

Something like;

 

"I respectfully request that the court allows an amendment to my particulars of claim.

 

(brief explaination of why the amendment is needed, etc...............)

 

Please find attached to this application my proposed new particulars of claim, as well as a schedule of the amount claimed in respect of penalty charges levied by the defendant"

 

Then, print out the N1 particulars of claim from the templates library - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/107596-new-poc-n1-lloyds.html and attach it to an N1 form - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/844-n1-claims-form-pdf.html

 

Attach your spreadsheet and take 3 copies to the court, along with 3 copies of the completed N244 + the fee. Tell the court staff what has happened, apologise for their inconveniance, and ask that your current particulars of claim are disregarded and replaced by the new ones. It will have to go before a judge to ok the amendment, and you could possibily get called for an application hearing which is nothing to worry about.

 

Also, if you are at the AQ stage, complete your AQ and take that to the court at the same time - you'll find guide notes in the templates library.

 

The Court will then amend the details, re-seal the claim and return it to you and it is your responsibility to re-serve it on the Defendant. Ensure that you keep a copy of the sealed N1 for yourself too. Once you have served the claim you should send the Court a completed certificate of service, here

http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/c.../n215_0106.pdf along with a copy of the N1 so the court knows when the bank need to respond.

[GaryH]

Hi Laurend,

 

The schedule should be a spreadsheet of the charges and interest (if any) you have claimed. You will need to submit your statements at a later date, when requested by the court.

 

Good luck:)

[GaryH]

Feeling a bit silly as i've realised that while everything else in my POC are correct i haven't included my account number. I only have one account with Lloyds and they have acknowledged the fact I have an account with them, should I still file an amendment to the claim with an N244 or is it possible to carry on. Any help greatly appreciated!

 

What stage are you at Mark? Assuming you've just got a defence and AQ, I'd be inclined to carry on and just attach a schedule to the AQ with your account number and claim details clearly marked at the top. IMO a formal amendment is not necessary.

[GaryH]

Hi Mel,

 

Sorry about the delay in replying, your post did'nt flag up in my user CP for some strange reason:confused:.

 

Your defence is typical of the "claim too vague" ones they have been issueing lately, except its the CC version obviously. Respond accordingly as advised above.

 

With regard to their error with the value of your claim, I'd point this out by including a sentance on the AQ.

 

Hope this helps

[GaryH]

Or you could file an amended claim - after all the defendant suggests that the claim needs to be amended - and at the same time a Part 18 request (which they won't answer) but which will focus their minds on settlement.

 

Yes, and the defendant also suggests in its defence that it charges are fair, transparent and lawful.

 

Why dance to the banks tune and pay an extra £35 for the priviledge? Lloyds file this type of defence in response to every MCOL claim, to run for the N244 form solely at their behest is completely unnecessary.

 

As above, so long as the MCOL template is used and schedule sent, the claim is adequately particularised and, in my interpretation, complies with the Cival Procedure Rules in relation to statement of case.

[GaryH]

It was not my intention to criticise your suggestion.

None taken:)

In all fairness the CPR require complance with the requirements relating to statements of case at the time those documents are served and not at the close of pleadings at the allocation questionnaire stage. Pleadings should comply with those requirments in the first place. This issue arises because of the templates on this site telling people to use the MCOL website. The banks are quite right - the MCOL template does not plead the case properly. People keep banging on about how they have served the schedules and the bank already know the account numbers etc. etc. but this misses the point completely. The court also needs to have the case properly set out in the pleadings and it will not have seen any of the documents one might have sent to the bank or its lawyers.

I agree that any schedule sent to the bank prior to the issue of the claim is irrelevant when the case file goes before a judge.

 

The passage above for inclusion on the AQ was designed to be used in cases where the schedule has been sent to the MCOL court at the time of issue for attachment to the particulars. If this is the case, I really don't see that the banks have any merit whatsoever to their objections and I think its extreamly unlikely that a judge would either. Come to think of it, nor do Lloyds, becouse ultimately they've settled every single claim.

In reality pleading the claim properly and thus complying with the CPR at the right time would wholly avoid the types of defence we see all the time here.

Although it does'nt provide for any sort of elaberation, I am of the belief that the sites MCOL template if accompanied by a schedule sent by post does satisfy part 16 of the CPR, although obviously I'm no lawyer.

 

The bank will always seek any flaws in a claim that they possibly can, whether they be in relation to particularisation or otherwise. I agree that the risk's should be mitigated wherever possible, but not if that means pandering to their underhanded tactics by taking steps that are disproportionate and unnecessary. I think we are all aware that for the most part these defences are part of their wider strategy of wearing out and intimidating claimants.

We should really submit our cliams on paper, properly pleaded, and get them right the first time.

For what its worth, I agree that claiming on an N1 is far preferable to MCOL and I do in fact advise as such.

Yes it means we can't use MCOL but we won't have to deal with these issues if it is done that way. And anyway based on my experience courts usually issue the claim quicker if it is submitted on paper direct to them than the MCOL system does.

This is a debate thats come up a couple of times recently, and its one thats well worth having - thank you for your input. I will certainly raise these concerns with the sites mods and admin.

 

In the meantime though, my advice (for what its worth) would certainly still be to refute any defences such as this, providing the criteria has been met as set out in the post above.

 

Its also worth remembering that you're not expected to be legally trained to file a claim at the small claims court. In fact the use of lawyers is positively discouraged. Although this should not be relied upon as insurance for filing a inadequate or ill-prepared claim, it does add to the many reasons why in my view, these sorts of defences would not hold sway with a judge.

[GaryH]

It is ordered that

 

1) The Defendant shall file a signed statement of truth by 4pm on 7th December 2006

 

2) The claimant shall file an amended particulars of claim including a concise statement of facts upon which the Claimant relies to include identification of the charges that he seeks to recover. The Claimant shall also set out the basis in law and fact for the claim as to the present pleadings disclose no cause of action by 4pm on 16 December 2006

 

You need to submit new Particulars of claim and a schedule of the charges and interest (if any) that make up the total amount claimed.

 

Heres the POC's - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/681-4-particulars-claim-n1.html

 

Please note that you do not need to print this on to a claim form, just print out on a sheet of paper with your name v Lloyds TSB, in the **** county court and your claim number at the top.

 

Get it to the court and send a copy to Lloyds solicitors ASAP.

 

Can I also ask how come you got this far if this is your first post? You could have saved all this hassle and got advice at every stage if you'd started a thread when you started out. Others could also have benefitted from seeing the progress and developments of your claim.

[GaryH]

Ah I see. I'm not familiar with the fool templates so I cant comment on their suitibility, but some other sites templates that I've seen can be dangorously inadequate. Best sticking with CAG if you ask me!

 

Good luck:)

[GaryH]

If you grouped them together as one claim when you filed initially then you'll have to keep them together, yes. The amount claimed needs to be exactly the same as before as its still the same claim. Remember to attach a schedule of every charge made - the date, reason (ie returned DD, etc), and amount.

[GaryH]

Hi laurend,

 

It can be a bit daunting when you first start out can't it. Especially as the site is so huge nowadays.

 

1) To start your own thread go to the Lloyds forum - the page you are on before you click into this thread - and scroll right down the page untill you get to the bottom of the list of threads. Just underneath on the left side of the screen there is a "new thread" icon, click on that and then add your title and first post and press submit. You'll then have your very own thread! I'll keep an eye out for it.

 

2) There is'nt alot you can do now for a while really. You are now waiting for instructions from the court. They will write to you soon with a court date and directions to provide your evidance, which you will have to do by a certain date. Most of what you need to provide is in the http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/33060-basic-court-bundle.html. When you get this letter from the court, post it on your thread and someone will help you further with what you need to provide.

 

I'd try not to think about this too much for a little while if I were you! Nothing will happen for a couple of weeks I doubt. If you can, get someone to keep an eye on the post for you for a bit.

 

Best of luck!

[GaryH]

Is it me or are the "claim too vague" defences drying up a bit lately? If anyone filed on MCOL WITHOUT sending a schedule, could you let me know what defence you received please?

 

Ta

[GaryH]

Hi Meagain,

 

Not sure, but a sentance has recently been added to the MCOL POC along the lines of "The defendant is aware of the details as they have already been sent". As I posted above, this type of defence seems to be drying up of late so it may have done the trick, along with the fact that claimants were refuting it perhaps.

[GaryH]

See here - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/lloydstsb-successes/

[GaryH]

So what you are saying is that you never specified a daily rate of interest? Or you put 8% in when it should have been the contractual daily rate?

[GaryH]

Ok, don't worry then - everyone's allowed a typo now and again! its not worth panicing over and you certainly don't need to consider an amendment. As long as the paragraph was there in full with all the amounts entered correctly, then it'll be fine.

[GaryH]

I sent a claim via the internet on 30/01/2007, I think it may be too vague I also failed to add my account number, I'm blonde sorry!! my particulars state:

 

I am claiming the last six years of unfair bank charges, I was being charged upto a maximum of £137.50 in a month. My claim is for £3,632.50. This is based on the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations and I beleive that these charges are unfair and not proportionate in their costs. I also claim interest under section 69 of the County Courts Act 1984 at the rate of 8% a year from 03/09/2001 to 30/01/2007 of £854.73 and also interest at the same rate up to the date of Judgement or earlier payments at the daily rate of 8%.

 

Should I do an amendment, also the court is Northampton, could I send it through the post!!! if I need to do one. HELP

 

You'll almost certainly get the "claim too vague" defence for those POC. They would probably also be deemed inadequate by the court. Don't panic just yet, wait untill you recieve the defence and AQ and file an amendment at the same time you file the AQ, following the procedure on the first post of this thread.

 

If you get stuck, let us know and we'll help you.

[GaryH]

Do you mind me asking where you found the template for those POC?

[GaryH]

..........they're about as much use as a chocolate toothbrush !

 

My thoughts entirely, PM!

[GaryH]

hi i have just started to try and claim agaist lloyds tsb for charges to my bank accounts i am only at the early stages and have just sent my letter req bank statements off i am kinda worried about it all as reading through as much of this as i can while at work is getting rather confusing. pm

 

A good place to start is the step by step instructions and the FAQ's, which are linked below in my signiture. Also have a good read of the LTSB successes forum - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/lloydstsb-successes/, particularly the longer threads - it'll give you a good idea of what to expect.

 

When you're ready to start your claim, start a thread of your own and you can then document your progress and you'll get help at every stage.

 

Good luck.

[GaryH]

Hi Gary, I have filed my claim and the bank has not defended but I realise that I could have worded the particulars of claim better. E.g I did not put a concise statement of the basis of my claim in law and fact.

 

The courts have already decided on judgement in my favour and for the amount to be decided by the courts (unspecified claim). I have a disposal hearing in June but I feel the way I worded my POC may affect how much I'm awarded. Do you think it's too late to file the amendament?

If you've been granted judgement your POC no longer matter. You've won.

 

Why is it for an unspecified sum?

hy there

we applied to llyds tsb to get our charges back today we recieved a letter telling us that the charges were not default charges?? they say (quote this doesnt apply to your charges as these were for dealing with your request to go over your agreed overdraft limit. they are not default charges because you havnt broken your agreement . they are our prices for the service we provide in these situations. unquote) could someone please tell me what this means surely charging £30 for bouncing a cheque are charges???

This is a completely standard Lloyds response. They are trying to put you off, which is something you should get used to. Ignore it and continue as planned.

 

Also, please start your own thread so everyone can keep track of your progress and offer help when its required. Go here - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=11

[GaryH]

Hi, welcome to CAG:)

 

Your POC are not really what I'd call adequate, although it should be ok. Wait untill you recieve Lloyds defence - if they defend on the basis that the claim is too vague, then you may be advised to amend your claim accordingly.

 

Send 2 copies of your schedule of charges to MCOL straight away, using this covering letter;

The Court Manager,

Money Claim Online

Northampton County Court

21-27 St. Katharine's Street

Northampton

NN1 2LH

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

(Your Name) –v- (Bank)

Claim No: ********

Date Issued: xx/xx/xx

 

Please find enclosed a schedule of penalty charges taken from me by the defendant, along with interest claimed at the annual rate of 8% pursuant to section 69 of the County Court Act. The interest in addition to the amount in charges equates to the total amount of my claim, namely £(AMOUNT).

 

I respectfully request that the enclosed schedule should be attached to the particulars of my claim.

 

Yours sincerely,

If you do that then you'll have less chance of the bank objecting to your particulars.

 

Also, please start a thread in the main part of the lloyds forum, by following this link - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=11. You'll then find there are loads of fellow Lloyds claimants who will be more than happy to help you at every stage of the process.

 

Best of luck.

[GaryH]

I would suggest that you file an amendment immediately - the chances are the AQ's will have been dispensed with anyway.

 

Use an N1 - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/844-n1-claims-form-pdf.html

and attach the N1 POC - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/681-4-particulars-claim-n1.html

and attach a schedule of charges.

 

You can change the value at the same time, just make a note of it on the N244, like this;

Top left hand box:

 

1. Tick c), without a hearing

 

Leave the rest blank

 

Part A:

 

I ***** (the claimant)

 

(that....) allows an amendment to the above claim in respect of the claim particulars, as well as the value of the claim

 

(because....) the claimant did not adequately particularise his claim in that he did not specify the common law and statutory provisions upon which the claim relies. Subsequently the defendant in its defence has objected to the claims Particulars.

 

Part B:

 

tick 'evidance in part C' box

 

Part C:

 

Something like;

 

"I respectfully request that the court allows an amendment to my particulars of claim.

 

(brief explaination of why the amendment is needed, etc...............)

 

Please find attached to this application my proposed new particulars of claim, as well as a schedule of the amount claimed in respect of penalty charges levied by the defendant. I respectfully request that my old Particulars of claim are disregarded and replaced with the proposed new ones as attached."

[GaryH]

Yes. You need to file a brand new statement of case - which is the N1 and POC and schedule, and you need to apply for permission to do so by filing an N244 (application notice)

 

Follow the instructions in post #1, and give me a shout if you run into any problems.

[GaryH]

Hi, welcome to CAG:)

 

I would'nt file an amendment just yet - wait untill you receive Lloyds defence. If you get the "claim too vague" one, which I suspect you will, then you should file an amendment at the same time as your AQ.

 

Don't worry about it - its nothing that can't be put right.

[GaryH]

Yes, you can certainly send 2 copies of your schedule to MCOL, as per post #85 above.

 

Wait for Lloyds defence before filing an amendment, you never know they may not even object, especially if you send your schedule.