Cabot Financial - Defending a court claim

[andrew1]

Hi, I have been dealing with Cabot and waiting CCA and S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) info since August. As they have not replied I have raised court papers and taking them to court to provide the paperwork or give a good reason why they have taken my money.

 

They have filed an aknowledgment and we have a date for mid Novemeber for the defence to be in.

 

See the link in my signature for info.

 

good luck

 

Hi Debt Mountain - just as a matter of interest which 'Cabot' name have you submitted court papers in?

 

 

Sherlock - keep a trace on Cabot threads - do a search as there is some interesting stuff going on which might help you - good luck but keep posting about ANY responses you get from ANY of the Cabot / Kingshill No 1 Ltd companies.

[andrew1]

Had the same letter in response to a Subject Access request and a Consumer Credit Act request from Cabot.

 

By return post they received this:

 

(CCA) You have 12 working days + 1 calendar month failure to comply will result in appropriate action.

 

(S.A.R - (Subject Access Request)) You have 40 days to comply failure to comply will result in appropriate action.

 

The deadlines are clearly defined and it is their responsability to meet them.

Incidentally they have purchased a debt that is made up only of punative charges. Might let them know after the deadlines expire.

 

 

You might find the bank that charged you the charges will refund the monies to Cabot rather than send it to you. Make sure as Citifinancial did to me, sent half the refund to cabot or difference between £24 and £12 and they deem it right because the debt was sold to Cabot and therefore their money. One or the other will have to send it to me as mine were ALL punitive charges.

[andrew1]

Sherlock - if you are going after citi check out lickthewallfatboy thread and various others as they have a particular affection for CAG members and like taking each and every one of them to the wire. They watch the site and their solicitor Brian Smith has a particularly close relationship with us all

[andrew1]

Thing is, since joining CAG, I no longer lose sleep over the scare tactics these people employ.

 

 

SHERLOCK

 

This is one particularly slippery character though and you'd be well advised to read a bit about him and what citi get up to. Once attracted to the synergy of this site there are not many who are intimidated by their tactics, but there are ways these people are working that are unique to each organisation - Brian Smith is unique- be warned !

[andrew1]

No, I'd apply for the statements with the Subject Access Request letter and your £10 Postal Order in the normal way, it's when it gets to you asking for your money that it gets interesting. Follow Martin3030 the Moderator he's a great lover of Brian.

[andrew1]

Sherlock - you are too nice... the SAR period will already be up and they have committed an offence.. the general opinion on site is that you keep to your timetable. Believe me, many of us ( me included, with all my negotiating skills) have tried being nice and persuasive thinking they just might behave better towards us to no avail.

 

I admire anyone who tries to go gently gently, but with the boot on the other foot they do not reciprocate with similar niceties. I sincerely hope you get the co-operation you seek, but don't hold your breath. You obviously want to settle all these accounts under your Debt Management Plan without hassle so perhaps you will acheive your aims, I wish you success. Try though to keep to a timetable. They have to by law and it does affect the status of a debt if timetables are not adhered to under the law. Good luck anyway. Sarah

[andrew1]

Wasn't going to post this here but realised it is relevant and Sherlock may find interesting. Monument was a trading style of Barclays Bank and was based in Sussex. APRs average 30% and is aimed at those with impaired credit history. At some stage it became Provident.

 

Barclays sold most of the business to US firm Compucredit for £390m in April 2007 but less than a year later the Atlanta based company went into Chapter 10 (basically bust).

 

Now all you have to do is find out whether it was securitised by the US firm - then they are in trouble

[andrew1]

Trust me when I say that s 53(1)c catches the transfer of an equitable interest... it is well known in the Banking arena and is something which many commentators comment on as regards computerisation of debt securities/negotiable instruments.

 

Edit: Paraphrased s 53(1)c:

 

a disposition of an equitable interest or trust subsisting at the time of the disposition, must be in writing signed by the person disposing of the same, or by his agent thereunto lawfully authorised in writing or by will.

 

Yes, but if it's securitised in the US then that changes the dynamics somewhat doesn't it?

[andrew1]

Wow, this thread has been busy.

 

I know this is off topic a little bit but when I was referring to multiple assignments of debt, we are going into a territory which can be used as a defence but with the certain caveats, that there is the right to interplead that the Debtor has that the Claimant can argue for to happen which is bad news for the Debtor and the current assignee can also bring into the action all the assignees and OC.

 

If A sells to B a chose in action (debt) under most of the provisions of s 136 of LOPA 1925, and B does not notify the debtor of this, then as the assignment is imperfect, it can be classified as an equitable assignment at best, at worst, only contractual rights.

 

Again, this means that when B then sells it onto C, it is not a s 136 sale BUT a s 53(1)c sale which requires equitable dispositions to be in writing. The effect of a purported equitable assignment that does not comply with this section will be to confer on the assignee merely contractual rights. As for equity, there are rules and consideration for an equitable assignment hence I would suggest reading up on it as it is a big topic.

 

As mentioned, it does not stop the Claimant from pursuing you, but it does make their life so much harder and they would prefer to discontinue rather than show the internal dealings of their group of companies which could attract the attention of the tax man.

 

Well you obviously know your way around the assignment of debt. Rhia mentioned the sale of the business by Barclays to a US firm which looks like it went bust. Securitisation is not a subject I can debate particularly well, but I do know the effects of securitisation in the US is different than the UK and therefore the sale becomes absolute if securitised in the US, you cannot have an equitable sale in the US - or so I believe. Given that most things in the banking world are securitised these days then ownership is sometimes difficult to prove.

 

If as you say this were a straight forward assignment executed correctly in the UK then you are right, it should not be as complex as I am implying, but I'm in the Cabot Fan Club and we know the key to most things is in the nitty gritty detail no-one wants you to see so we go looking deeper than most throwing the odd spanner in the works just to liven up debate and to encourage further investigation. As our Ken knows only too well to his cost - You don't feck with the Cabot Fan Club! ( and get away with it lightly)

Edited June 26, 2010 by andrew1

[andrew1]

 

 

And for the record, if I can squirm out of this without paying another penny I will...........morally corrupt I am.

 

SHERLOCK

 

Do you know Sherlock, one has to laugh when looking at this quote of yours as I don't suppose there's a debtor out there who might actually feel deep inside the desire to do exactly the same. There has been no better example of trying to get Cabot on the run than those of us in the Cabot Fan Club and all who followed in our wake.

 

Yet that is not what the Cabot Fan Club has aspired to do, whether Mr Maynard ever would be convinced of that I doubt, but all we have ever asked Cabot to do is ABIDE BY THE LAW and the Regulations which oversee their business. - It's a fine line because Cabot themselves, even at the dizzy levels of higher management scream blue murder when they are pressurised by us to get them to abide by these rules or if we use this 'White Data' they are so passionate about getting more of, but as soon as we turn the very same rules, OFT regulations, white data or CCA on them they run like babies cuddling teddies back to their prams crying 'unfair'.

 

Abide by the laws - we all go away, stop chasing uncollectable and statute barred debts and debt that they are obviously looking at which are unlawfully executed - we go away, stop using bully-boy tactics - we go away, if they concentrated on collecting bone fide debt, which has been assigned correctly, which has all the correct information, which are correctly identified to the correct people, which are executed in the proper formats via the fun factory in Rugby then, and only then will Cabots profits return to some normality and Mr Maynard can relax his twichy muscles a bit and Glen can go off and buy another Aston.

 

The Laws - read and learn and abide by them Cabot.

 

So you see Sherlock, the campaign is not to encourage the morally corrupt to not pay what is due, the campaign is to make Cabot do what they are supposed to, legally, lawfully, compassionately, professionally and not to try and bulldoze their way through people's lives. The industry has changed - they haven't!

 

As we've seen, they don't like it any more than we do and having some of their own medicine should have taught them by now that we are right and they are wrong. That's just too much for Kenny to look in the mirror in the morning and admit, his pride wouldn't allow it, but Training - more training Kenny, that's what your guys and gals need!

 

We are not all Rouge Debtors and 'won't payers' (even though Sherlock admits to being one ) people, strangely enough do have morals out here so please go away and focus on the legal and professional aspects of your business from the time you buy these debts to the time you execute your wares upon the 'customers'.

 

This is the message I will be portraying to your prospective client I have been invited to visit in a few days time with one of my erstwhile Fan Club colleagues. I will not be ruthless, you are a business and there are certain apsects which actually do fair better than some of your competitors out there, but...and it's a big but too...you still will not learn and are far too focussed on getting your own back for this consumer backlash we started. (mind you with £18 million loss, I might be a bit miffed too ). Get back to your desk and stop whinging and focus on the important parts of your business - Rugby would be a good place to start too

 

 

Affectionately, your very own,

 

Cabot Fan Club

[andrew1]

Very wise words Andrew1, but here is the crux.

 

I WAS and STILL am paying! Problem is they have to push things and now have stirred a hornets nest because what I have found since joining CAG is the capacity to fight my corner with the help from yours truly etc.

 

As with all my creditors, if they leave me in peace they will get some payment (yes, even those with crappy / no agreements - for now anyway, cannot take on too much - each will get the same medicine eventually though) and most seem ok with this. However, it is generally the case that I kick up a fuss when they try to back me into a corner.

 

Morally corrupt I may be, but that doesn't make Cabot the good guy! (maybe I should check out the jobs at Cabot, it would seem we are good bed fellows). Cabot may well get what they want out of this but it won't be without a good ol' scrap and whilst your campaign is a very admirable one and 'is not to encourage the morally corrupt to not pay what is due' is it not the case that in actual fact monies are not 'due' because Cabot and the OC before them have seen fit to misuse / mis-interpret the law as they go along???

 

Would you believe I am a little miffed with this, they apply for a CCJ, THEN suggest I should sign a TO that now includes THEIR court fee and THEIR solicitor's fee, AND paythe same amount I was anyway! Basically, I wouldn't give a crap if Cabot went to the wall tomorrow, you make your bed, you gotta lie in it right!! AND MR MAYNARD, WHOEVER YOU ARE, YOU STILL HAVEN'T SENT ME MY CITIFINANCIAL AGREEMENT I ASKED FOR 2 YEARS AGO BUT STILL TAKE MY PAYMENT, YOU MORALLY CORRUPT HUMAN BEING. THIS IS NEXT ON MY LIST BY THE WAY!!

 

 

May I now officially declare myself a member of The Cabot Fan Club or do I have to change my moral stance to get my place at the table (I should be a LibDem MP) ,

 

Would you believe I am actually a very nice person who does not like conflict of any sort?

 

Dearest Rhia, Morgans / Cabot collections (the lady did say she was from Morgan's collections) rang me at 8am (I took the call) to ask about a payment plan, I pointed out that this account is the subject of court action, she went away, came back and said 'oh yeh, it's being dealt with in Rugby'!! happy hunting Andrew1.

 

Regards,

 

SHERLOCK

 

AND MR MAYNARD, WHOEVER YOU ARE, YOU STILL HAVEN'T SENT ME MY CITIFINANCIAL AGREEMENT I ASKED FOR 2 YEARS AGO BUT STILL TAKE MY PAYMENT, YOU MORALLY CORRUPT HUMAN BEING.

 

Couple of points Sherlock, hate to disappoint you, but the 'official' Cabot Fan Club closed doors to 'official' members long time ago, it's a long story, but we just like to think people are followers of the philosophy we began on the back of Cag's platform of unity amongst troubled people, you know, the kind of community Bankfodder started that sticks by everyone and supports one another at a time when creditors were abusing their position. Bankfodder was the epitome of the small man's fighter for the common cause which backed up the 'family' of which we are all members (Trolls excluded of course). So welcome to the followers club of the Cabot fan Club which is far stronger and more valuable than the fan club itself. We 8 are just a family of our own now after 4 yrs and I'd trust them-all of them with my life. We work in a unique way and have some extremely diverse talents which gell.

 

Secondly, offending Mr Maynard with comments like "YOU MORALLY CORRUPT HUMAN BEING" is not something we like to do because it brings us down to their levels. We are morally on the high ground so we like to poke fun, but keep it 'nice' so we don't hurt his feelings too much as it just costs him even more money on very expensive solicitors and just now the poor guy can't really afford them. So be gentle with him, he likes his teddy bears - he's only the CEO after all and that's a thankless task really being the face of the company.

 

[andrew1]

I'm afraid that was the least complimentary statement I could make without getting banned from CAG!!

 

If he's not gonna succumb to abuse, through the courts it will be -

 

OK, just completing letters, they will be going off soon with another stay request!!

 

 

In my letter I have contained a:

• Notice to Admit
  
• CPR 31.14 Request
  

Incidentally, put the following paragraph below the request for 'deed of assignment', is this ok??

 

4, the Deed of Assignment* / Sales Assignment*

*where this may be contained within a master agreement that does / doesn’t contain my account then please be specific and where any sales sub-agreement for this specific account is mentioned in a paper schedule or other media but is, or may be, sold under the auspices of the master agreement mentioned above, please also provide evidence of this, along with legible account details.

 

Additionally it asks when requesting a stay for info as to the help / expert advice that I may be receiving....ANY TAKERS!!

 

SHERLOCK

 

How could I resist Sherlock? - always up for a challenge against our friends

 

You have an eye I must say, glad to see, unlike so many others coming on here, that you've familiarised yourself with threads about the sales agreements. Spot on my friend. I could send you copies of most of the sales agreements between theirs truly and their clients having obtained numerous ourselves, but also a number donated by a very special admirer of Seahorse to the Fan Club library (which is extensive ) who comes from within.

 

Yours was Citi wasn't it? - I'll dig it out and refresh my memory of the content, safe to say though that the data is only supplied to Cabot on 2 discs or so on most of these deals they did. Just the basic stuff and not sufficient for them to have any copies of documents which they'd really need to ensure they were chasing the right people or realise the agreements are genuine or legit even. Any monkey can phone from a list, did it for years myself - trouble is this information gathered by monkey's is passed through the troop to Rugby where the baboons up there take over whilst Frank Spencer looks after and feeds them all

 

Sorry, mustn't get personal, I'm sure they are fine family people ( where did I put those banana's? ) ...

 

You obviously have a serious side to you Sherlock which has a good grasp of the way things are supposed to work, just make sure anything you do is checked out for you by people who, unlike yourself where it's obvious you have a good knowledge, but not quite sufficent to confidently execute this

from a legal prospective, first because getting legal things wrong and based upon unsure footing will cost you dearly as a LIP.

 

Pass it by a solicitor if you can afford to. It's safer and never go to court without a barrister if you can avoid it. We joke on here, but the seriousness of debt and the rule of thumb used by the likes of these DCA's of ' throw enough mud at the wall, some of it will stick' approach leaves debtors confused. They prey on this as many will not defend for being too scared (as you can see from the daft practice of sending everything via Northampton Bulk). We don't like this practice and efforts are being worked on the cap this so that'll be another problem they created, but will ultimately pay for - just like the Claims Management companies did - they went bust! Careful what yo wish for Kenny

 

I'll dig out that sales doc and see if there's anything you can use. What date was your agreement assigned Sherlock and how long after Cabot bought it?

[andrew1]

Woops system Glitch...?

 

System glitch

 

Woops! system clitch..?

Edited July 1, 2010 by citizenB
merged system glitches to one post :)

[andrew1]

Hi Andrew1,

 

One thing I am is not stupid, I have a degree you know - (though by all accounts this isn't a pre-requisite to being clever either!) I find the major stumbling block is the time required to research, read, check and re-check, write up and even keeping track of where I am....all very time consuming work - on top of your usual day-to-day activities. I reckon that is the problem with other users, not that they are dumb or lazy (hell I've been guilty of this on more than 1 occasion!).

 

That said, it would seem I am up to my neck in it with this one, so I'm gonna have to stay on the ball and put all my reserves into this one account (there are others).

 

Onto business, the account was a Monument Card - Link to 'reply Card' received below. Card initially taken out in 2000 with Monument (Providian)

Receive 'reply card' agreement - Mar 2007 (Cabot state that letter encloses 'Original Application Form') http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...t-2584769.html Please note that the reply card in post 37 above contains an 'application form' barcode. This is a 2nd copy sent when requested after the ccj claim was filed. The 1st copy sent did not contain the barcode.

 

Defence filed as per post 50 - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...t-2667887.html - if a keen eye can be cast over this to ensure that this does still stand (i.e. no change through my issuing NoA and CPR 31.14) OR have I moved the goalposts in anyway??

 

I have Rhodium to thank for bringing my attention to how they will deal with the DoA request so I felt a little pre-empting their next move would maybe speed / tidy things up a little.

 

So, there we have it...Do you feel a 'without prejudice' cover letter to discontinue is the correct course at this moment (thank you Rhia) or will this play into their hands with the disclosure documents I am attempting to get my hands on, i.e would they drag their feet if it wasn't for a looming hearing??

 

Regards,

 

SHERLOCK

 

One thing I am is not stupid, I have a degree you know -

 

Knew it, we can spot fools on here far too clever for the likes of Cabot!

 

You'll be lucky to get any kind of disclosure out of these people, far too slippery, but you can try.

 

Now I'm going to duck out of trying to point you onto any legal issues as I'm not legally trained, there are far more qualified people on here to do that for you, but what I do have is a vast portfolio of peoples accounts with Cabot and the correspondence they have received, legal case notes ( and even some of theirs ) which I can follow through with cases like yours with Monument. I have a vast amount on Monument so if you want to PM me an email address I might be able, subject to certain criteria I set myself with, to provide you with previous case histories, depersonalised of course from which to work from.

 

I'm going to be unavailable for a few days as I have a few meetings to attend to (as you say, some people have real jobs! ) but I'll pop in and out.

 

I'll leave you for the time-being to contemplate your next move and I do not want to hog this thread and deprive you of some of the more legally technical answers you require from other posters.

 

I'm glad you are finding other posters helpful though, many posters come on here to learn and we often know far more than the companies and firms personnel themselves. Having dealt with some of the largest practices and completely lost them in CCA terminology I find it quite rewarding to put these so called 'legally trained' people to the test and actually answer basic questions they should know, but don't! - goes hand in hand with what I said earlier...." All we ask is Cabot and any other DCA or Creditor to abide by the laws that regulated them - you'd be astonished at the state of some agreements we've seen legally, the DN's that are faulty, T&C's - these are supposed to be professionals...I could rant all day...good luck Sherlock, I'll go digging..

 

Don't suppose you could de-personalise your agreement and post it up could you?

[andrew1]

I claimed over £1000 back in charges from Citi Financail and they paid £500 to cabot as a settlement and nothing to me - be careful - I still haven't finished with them yet! They have still to feel the Fan Club treatment

[andrew1]

Quite agree there Rhia, if you are comfortable then the decision must be yours as you have to live with it. Don't look back in anger, we all need to move on and as one very loyal Cabot Fan Club member said to us all once " I just want to wake up in the morning and NOT think of Cabot anymore" and who can blame him? - there's more to life and once I've posted all their financials and debentures up for the last year for the world to see I might be doing the same