dwarren VS Natwest ** WON **

[Guest dwarren]

Hi all,

 

Just thought I'd introduce myself!

 

Have had a good long hard read at all the FAQS and have now decided to go for it!

S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) has been posted this morning to Natwests registered office so let the games begin!

 

Already have another bank account in place in case things get ugly so I suppose it's now just a waiting game for the statements!

 

I'm glad to see that there are so many helpful people on these forums and do hope I can use my experiences via this board to help others - regardless of how my action goes!

 

*fingers crossed*

 

dwarren

[GaryH]

Hi Dwarren, and welcome to the CAG!

 

It sounds as though you've done your homework before you started which is good to see, well done. Good precaution to take by getting a parachute account, too. Remember they've only got 40 days to comply with your SAR, so keep on top of them. If it gets to about 30 and you have'nt heard anything, send them a reminder.

[Guest dwarren]

Hi all,

 

An update. My statements for the last 6 years have arrived in what appears to be a typical fashion - brown tatty envelope (photo's have been taken before opening).

 

I have completed the schedule of charges spreadsheet available in the templates folder. I do have a couple of questions however:

 

1. My overdraft with NatWest was interest free. I have therefore not received any charges or interest debits on my account. As such and when/if the time comes, am I entitled to charge a standard 8% interest as laid out in the spreadsheet or does the interest rule not apply in my case?

(I am aware I shouldn't include any interest at this stage - just trying to forward plan)

 

2. Can I include a £30 charge for the bank issuing a default notice on my account in my schedule of charges?

 

Other than that the Preliminary Request letter is ready to go!

 

Thanks in advance

 

dwarren

[GaryH]

Hi Dwarren,

 

1. Yes, you are still intitled to the 8% when you file your claim. This is unrelated and irrelevant to any interest which may or may not have been charged under the terms of your account. The County Courts Act 1982 (section 69) allows you to claim 8% interest on top of any money you are owed when you file a County Court claim to recover it. Its intended to 'compensate' you if you like, for your money wrongly being in someone elses possesion for x amount of time.

 

2. Yes, you can include that. Its a punitive and disproportionate charge, and as such reclaimable.

 

Go get em!

[Guest dwarren]

Many thanks for the response GaryH,

 

Letter has just been posted!

 

Will keep you all updated

 

dwarren

[Guest dwarren]

Hi all,

 

A quick update. My preliminary request for £2562.50 was posted on 13th November.

 

21-11-2006

A response from the infamous Stuart Higley has been received stating that the charges are fair and no refund will be given - blah blah blah.

 

My LBA is ready to go (am just waiting for the 14 days to expire)

 

Looking on course at the moment though!

 

Will update soon

 

dwarren

[natwesttookmymoney]

Good stuff. At least you've had a reply from Higgledy - I haven't been so privileged!

 

Westy

[Guest dwarren]

Update time I feel!

 

My LBA was sent 1st December (1st class mail) and I have had no response so am about to complete my MCOL (Money Claim Online).

 

I do however have a couple of questions:

 

The text I have used for the MCOL is the following:

 

1. The Claimant has an account XXXXXXXX with the Defendant, opened August 2001 2. Since 24/10/01 the Defendant debited charges and interest in respect of purported breaches of contract. 3. Defendant is aware of all details as a list of charges has already been supplied. Another copy will be sent. 4. Claimant contends: (a) The charges exceed the Defendant's losses caused by the breaches; (b) The Term permitting the Defendant to levy such charges is unenforceable under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999, Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 and at Common Law. 5. Claimant claims: (a) return of the amounts debited of £2562.50; (b) Interest per S.69 County Courts Act 1984 of 8% - £400.96 continuing at 8% until judgment or settlement at a daily rate of £0.65; 6. Alternatively, if the charges are a fee for a service, then they must be reasonable under S.15 of the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982. 7. Costs allowed by the Court.

 

1. Does this read okay?

 

2. Can I work on the presumption that although my LBA wasn't sent recorded, it will have been received and there is no way that NatWest can argue they never received the LBA and thus hold up my claim (as they don't seem to have had any problems receiving any of the other letters)?

 

 

3. To date I have sent a copy of my schedule of charges (without the 8% interest) with both my Preliminary Request letter and my LBA. My question is: Do I need to send NatWest a schedule of my charges with the 8% County Court interest before filling the MCOL?

 

 

4. As I am not completing an N1 (Hard copy County Court form), is there still a requirement for me to send copies of the schedule of charges to the bank again (and if so do I need to send it to the registered address or should I be presumptuous and send them to Corbetts - as Natwests Solicitors)?

 

Many thanks in advance

 

dwarren

[GaryH]

Hi Dwarren

 

1. Does this read okay?

Fine.

2. Can I work on the presumption that although my LBA wasn't sent recorded, it will have been received and there is no way that NatWest can argue they never received the LBA and thus hold up my claim (as they don't seem to have had any problems receiving any of the other letters)?

First class post is sufficiant. From their point of view, there are many more effective ways to frustrate your claim than quibbling over whether they received an LBA or not. You sent it, thats the important thing.

3. To date I have sent a copy of my schedule of charges (without the 8% interest) with both my Preliminary Request letter and my LBA. My question is: Do I need to send NatWest a schedule of my charges with the 8% County Court interest before filling the MCOL?

No. Go ahead and file.

4. As I am not completing an N1 (Hard copy County Court form), is there still a requirement for me to send copies of the schedule of charges to the bank again (and if so do I need to send it to the registered address or should I be presumptuous and send them to Corbetts - as Natwests Solicitors)?

You can send one to the MCOL court and then to Cobetts upon the acknowledgement of your claim. You'll still more than likely get a part 18 request though. Heres a cover letter for your schedule -

 

(YOUR ADDRESS)

The Court Manager

Money Claim Online

Northampton County Court

21-27 St Katherine’s Street

Northampton

NN1 2LH

(DATE)

Dear Sir/Madam

(YOU) –v- (BANK)

Claim No: ********

Date of issue:

Please find enclosed a schedule of the money taken by the defendant bank by way of charges, along with interest claimed at the annual rate of 8% pursuant to section 69 of the County Court Act. The interest in addition to the amount in charges equates to the total amount of my claim, namely £(AMOUNT).

I respectfully request that the enclosed schedule should be attached with the particulars of my claim.

Yours Faithfully

(YOU)

[Guest dwarren]

Thanks for the speedy response GaryH.

 

Will get going on sending the MCOL then and wait for a response from Cobetts.

 

Will keep everyone up to date with how it goes!

 

dwarren

[Guest dwarren]

Hi all,

 

It's been a while since I last updated!

 

I completed MCOL which was issued on the 29th December (Lack of ££ stopped me issuing it any sooner!). This was deemed served on the 3rd January 2007.

They now have 14 days by which to acknowledge.

05-01-2007

Letter from NatWest apologising for not responding yet to my LBA (which was posted on 1-12-2006) and to 'bear with them'.

 

09-01-2007

Natwest Acknowledged the claim.

This now gives them a further 28 days in which to file a defence.

 

More to come....

[Guest dwarren]

31-01-2007

True to form (or at least from reading others posts!) Cobbetts (Natwests Solicitors) have entered defence.

As well as a detailed 4 page defence they have also enclosed a 3 page CPR18 request (Request for further information - This is where the defendant (Natwest) claims that the Particulars of Claim do not contain enough detailed information such as a breakdown of charges etc...).

 

At last it feels as though this is really moving along....

[Guest dwarren]

01-02-2007

Letter posted to the Court and a copy to Cobbetts. This is based upon ED1237's template that can be found here.

 

The Court Manager

Northampton County Court

21-27 St Katherine’s Street

Northampton

NN1 2LH

 

01st February 2007

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Claimant’s response to the request for further information

 

(DWARREN) –v- (NATIONAL WESTMINSTER)

Claim No: 1234567

 

I have received a request from the defendants for further information, which they say is made pursuant to CPR Part 18.

 

However it is highly likely that this claim will be allocated to the small claims track and I know part 18 does not apply.

 

The Defendant’s part 18 request suggests very strongly that I have not supplied them with enough information to mount a defence. Despite this they have submitted a very full and complicated defence.

 

I am anxious to be seen to be co-operating as much as I can and therefore I am providing the following information and sending a copy to the defendants.

 

In section 3 of their request, the defendants state that they are yet to receive a copy of the list of charges and have asked for a detailed breakdown of the charges that have been applied to our account and our account details. I do not understand why they require this information as I sent them a copy on both 12th November and 01st December 2006. I also filed a copy with my claim form which you will find in the court file and presumably the court must have served this on the defendants with the claim form. I have again attached copies of the breakdown of charges which can again be attached to the particulars of my claim.

 

Section 4 of the defendants request; ask for details of our account contract with the defendant. However the defendants are clearly fully aware of the details of the contract, the contract is their own terms and conditions imposed by them with no basis for negotiation. Further more the defendant has purported to rely on upon the terms and conditions in order to implement charges against us. The defendants must understand very well, which are the contractual terms in issue.

 

I am sure the court is already aware of the current flood of litigation which is being brought against all of the major banks on the issue of penalty charges. I can tell the court that hundreds such of claims have been issued at courts around the country, many having been allocated to the fast track and there are at least 10 cases transferred to the mercantile court in London to be heard as a test case. However to date every case has been settled by the banks before going to a hearing, even Barclays bank which is the defendant at the Mercantile court cases has started contacting the claimants and making an offer of full settlement in order to avoid the case being fully heard.

 

The NatWest, the defendants in our own case has settled over 180 cases, many of them for much larger amounts than my own claim.

 

The banks are fully aware of the bank charges issue. The Office of Fair Trading conducted a 2 year investigation into Credit Card penalty charge cases and found they were unfair and unenforceable at law. The OFT also said there was a read-across to banks of their penalty charges. The OFT has urged the banks to comply with their findings. The banks have refused and the OFT in entering into further discussions with them.

 

In the meantime the banks oblige thousands of their customers – very ordinary citizens, to bring court claims which their banks or their solicitors then go on to complicate the process with procedural devices such as the present part 18 request.

 

Only those claimants of sufficient heart and tenacity are eventually paid out in full. I am sure the great majority give up altogether or accept reduced payments. This is the deliberate intention of the banks style of litigation.

 

The banks style of litigation is intimidatory and shameful and would be vexatious if it were not for the fact that they are the defendants.

 

The Master of Rolls in 2004 addressed an international conference on vexatious litigation. He told the conference the evil of vexatious litigation was that it undermined justice and was a burden to the public resource.

I can not imagine any better description of the result of the banks style of litigation.

 

It really should not be for an ordinary citizen to bear the burden of bringing the banks back within the rule of law.

 

The OFT has the power to deal with this matter and is tasked and resourced to do the job. If the OFT were to seek an injunction then this burden upon the private individual could probably be brought to an end within a week.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

dwarren

 

CC: Cobbetts LLP, Ship Canal House, King Street, Manchester M2 4WB

 

Lets see if this letter speeds things up...

[Guest dwarren]

Right, Alllocation Questionnaire has arrived this morning. Will be completing today and taking to the Court on Monday morning with the £100 fee.

 

Will keep everyone updated with progress!

[GaryH]

Here's the new strategy, which has proved very effective so far - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/53570-new-strategy-allocation-questionaires.html

[natwesttookmymoney]

Hi, Dwarren

 

If you've filed at MCOL you really don't have enough room to file full POCs so, unless you've also posted them to the Bulk Court (and possibly to the Defendant as well) they are within their rights to ask for full particulars - and the Court will likely order you to provide them.

 

Amazing, though, that they've come up with a four-page response to a non-particularised claim!

 

I wonder if I got your defence - which ran to one page in response to my 3 pages of POCs, which detailed everything - ans asked for full particulars, and you got mine??

 

What did they say??

 

Best

 

Westy

[Guest dwarren]

Here's the new strategy, which has proved very effective so far - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/53570-new-strategy-allocation-questionaires.html

 

Hi Gary,

 

Allocation Questionnaire was indeed filed with draft direction orders (see below)

In the XXXXXX County Court

Claim number XXXXXX

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Between

 

 

 

XXXXXXXX - Claimant

 

 

 

and

 

 

 

 

XXXXX - Defendant

 

 

 

 

 

 

Draft Order for Directions

 

 

 

The Claimant shall within 14 days of service of this order send to the Defendant and to the Court:

• a) A schedule setting out each charge repayment of which is sought, showing the date, amount, and reason given (if any) for that charge being made;

• b) Copies of any statement or other document relied upon as showing that each and every charge has been made;

• c) A statement of evidence of all matters relied upon as tending to show that the charges are irrecoverable as penalties or otherwise;

• d) Copies of decided cases and other legal materials to be relied upon.

If the Claimant fails to comply with this order, the claim will be struck out without further order.

 

 

 

2. The Defendant shall within 14 days thereafter file and serve a response to the Claimant's schedule, stating in respect of each item claimed;

• a) Pursuant to what contractual provision such charge was made, producing a copy of the contractual document relied upon;

• b) Whether such charge is accepted to be a penalty, and if not why not;

• c) If such charge is alleged to be a pre-estimate of the Defendant's loss incurred by the Claimant's actions (whether or not such action is treated as a breach of contract between the parties), all facts and matters intended to be relied upon as showing that such was a proper estimate of such loss, and all evidence to be adduced at trial as to what the true cost of dealing with the matter was;

• d) If such charge is not alleged to be a pre-estimate of the Defendant's loss incurred by the Claimant's actions then facts and matters intended to be relied upon showing the basis upon which the charge was calculated and all evidence to be adduced at trial as to show that the charge was fair and reasonable.

• f) Any witness statements.

• g) Copies of decided cases and other legal materials to be relied upon.

If the Defendant fails to comply with this order, the Defence will be struck out without further order.

 

 

The deadline for returning the Allocation Questionnaire is today so should be hearing something soon.......

[Guest dwarren]

If you've filed at MCOL you really don't have enough room to file full POCs so, unless you've also posted them to the Bulk Court (and possibly to the Defendant as well) they are within their rights to ask for full particulars - and the Court will likely order you to provide them.

 

Is this really likely? (excuse my ignorance, but haven't read it anywhere else)

[Guest dwarren]

Hi all,

 

Am still waiting to hear from Cobbetts as am expecting a court date through anytime soon!

 

However I decided to go into work late today and low and behold as I'm walking out of the front door I am met by the postman who is holding a big envelope from Natwest...

Now I know this is not what I am expecting from Cobbetts (namely all my money) but am curious.

 

Open it up and cannot believe what I'm reading. More to follow...

[Guest dwarren]

It's a letter from Mr Higley @ Customer Relations..

 

Dear dwarren

 

Thank you for your letter of 05/01/07. I am sorry that you have concerns regarding the charges that have been applied to your account.

 

We explain all our terms & conditions including our fees and charges at account opnening and they form the basis of your agreement with us. Full details are available at any time on our website and in our branches, and updates are sent out regularly to our customers. For you convenience, I am enclosing our current terms and conditions (including fees and charges) that apply to your account.

 

Natwest has for a number of years provided many every day banking services to customers free of charge when accounts are in credit or within a previously agreed overdraft limit. These services including access to our branch network, cheques, Direct Debits, Standing Orders, UK debit card transactions and UK ATM withdrawals. It is also important to us that our customers have every opportunity to arrange suitable borrowing facilities with us should they require extra funds whether through our branches, online or via our UK based call centres.

 

Whilst many of our services are provided without a corresponding charge, we do make charges when customers, by their actions, request an increase to or the creation of an overdraft in excess of their previously agreed limit. By reviewing such requests we provide an additional service to customers, in many instances allowing items to be paid by creating or increasing an overdraft. These charges can be avoided entirely by arranging suitable borrowing facilities in advance.

 

For these reasons, we do not agree with the basis of your complaint. We believe that the charges we levy are for providing services and that they are not penalties or charges for default. Furthermore we believe that these charges are fair, reasonable and transparent.

 

However, having review your case and as a gesture of goodwill and without admission of liability or error, in this instance we are prepared to offer the amount of £2550 paid direct to your account.

 

To accept this offer in full and final settlement of your complaint please let me know by completing the attached for and returning to us in the reply paid envelope provided. If you would like to discuss this offer please contact the number quoted above.

 

Any charges that properly accrue in the future will be applied to your account in line with our published tariff and in accordance with your agreement with the bank. Should you be unwilling to accept any such charges, then we may need to consider if we are prepared to continue to provide you with your existing banking facilities. Instead we may offer you a simple account that does not offer borrowing facilities or other services that can result in charges.

 

I trust that this will resolve your complaint, however for the sake of completeness I am enclosing a leaflet explaining the options available to you should you wish to take matters further.

 

Financial Services Authority guidelines state that we can regard you complaint as closed if we do not hear from you within eight weeks of this letter. If you do need to take your complaint forward, please let me know within this time.

 

I look forward to hearing from you

 

Yours sincerely,

 

Stuart Higley

Customer Relations

 

Now I have tried to get hold of them on the number that is provided all day but it is engaged the whole time!

 

Now what really annoys me about this letter...

 

Thank you for your letter of 05/01/07.

 

My MCOL was deemed served on the 03-01-2007 and no letters have gone to them between my LBA and the acknowledgement of their defence (telling them to stick their CPR18 request) that was sent in February. This letter only arrived today yet was dated 19th February!

 

For these reasons, we do not agree with the basis of your complaint. We believe that the charges we levy are for providing services and that they are not penalties or charges for default.

 

Where do I start ..... They only need to look at my POC .... I mean service charge!?

 

Should you be unwilling to accept any such charges, then we may need to consider if we are prepared to continue to provide you with your existing banking facilities.

 

They closed my account last September and I have no access to it whatsoever (am infact being chased by a third party for an old overdraft and loan!)

 

Anyhow what do people reckon I should do? I have no intention of accepting this as Full & Final as my claim is well over £3000 with interest etc already.

 

Will send a standard "thanks as a part settlement..." letter but do you think it would be good to draft something else to highlight the fact that it appears that Natwest aren't even speaking with their solicitors as there is absolutely no mention in this letter asking me to withdraw my court action against them.

 

Am I missing something or are they really being this incompetent?

 

dwarren:)

[Localboy1982]

Wow, you have had an identical day to me! I'd presumed my offer letter was so late compared to it's date because they'd naffed up my address on it (just out of interest - is the address ok on yours?), but it looks like they really are THAT incompetent!

 

See my thread 'Game On!' for my written response to this shambles.

 

Good luck

[GaryH]

Yes, they really are that incompetent.

 

Send the standard rejection letter from the templates, amended to mention the status of your claim at present. No need to go into to much detail though.

[Guest dwarren]

Wow, you have had an identical day to me! I'd presumed my offer letter was so late compared to it's date because they'd naffed up my address on it (just out of interest - is the address ok on yours?)

 

Nope.

 

They do at least seem to have got my address correct which I suppose is a bonus!

[Guest dwarren]

Have drafted a response to them:

 

Mr Stuart Higley

Ground Floor

National Westminster House

225 Shenley Road

Borehamwood

WD6 1TE

 

28th February 2007

 

Dear Mr Higley

 

Thank you for your letter dated 19-02-2007 (that arrived 28-02-2007). Please note that a county court claim has been issued for this complaint and is ongoing – Claim number 6QZ96858.

 

Therefore I respectfully decline your offer of settlement (£2550) and request, once again, that you return to me all charges imposed on this account, interest and court fees which is now totalling £3224.05.

 

I will accept the sum offered only as part settlement and on the clear understanding that I will pursue recovery of the remainder.

 

I will be willing to withdraw my claim upon receipt of unconditional full settlement of my claim.

 

I trust this clarifies my position.

Yours faithfully,

 

dwarren

CC: Cobbetts LLP, Ship Canal House, King Street, Manchester M2 4WB

 

[natwesttookmymoney]

Hi, dwarren

 

 

"Will send a standard "thanks as a part settlement..."

 

I think that's absolutely the right thing to do.

 

"...but do you think it would be good to draft something else to highlight the fact that it appears that Natwest aren't even speaking with their solicitors as there is absolutely no mention in this letter asking me to withdraw my court action against them."

 

Whether they talk to their solicitors or not is their problem, not yours.

 

You could include a sentence along the lines of "This matter is the subject of a legal claim that was filed at Moneyclaim online (MCOL) on [date]. I will be happy to withdraw that action on receipt of full settlement of my claim, which stands at £xxxxx."

 

I'd think that would be sufficient.

 

Westy