Appeal old liability orders after 21 days of order?

[chillinlong]

Hi all,

I have been issued a stat demand and now will be served a petition for bankruptcy next week. This is for liability orders obtained in the past between 2009-2012. The majority of the liability orders are supposed to be the tenants paying which I have proof.

 

I made an application to set aside the stat demand, however Judge dismissed on basis that CPR 13.4.3

"Where the debt claimed in the statutory demand is based on a judgment, order, liability order, costs certificate, tax assessment or decision of a tribunal, the court will not at this stage inquire into the validity of the debt nor, as a general rule, will it adjourn the application to await the result of an application to set aside the judgment, order decision, costs certificate or any appeal."

 

I have stated clearly several time to Council tax department of who owes the liabilities etc, but now because it has gone this far they will not discuss and say only contact through their solicitor. Their solicitor has said not interested and bankruptcy petition will be served unless all monies paid.

 

Problem is I do not owe the liabilities, I made a mistake not appealing within the 21 day time limit via the High courts as I had a lot of other things going on. I am wondering is there anyway we can get the liability orders overturned at all, I have the proof for the council that other tenants were in place and should have been paying for this?

 

My guess at moment is to appeal the stat demand on the grounds surely "Common sense will prevail" but have serious doubts about this. Other option is for me to appeal the liability orders via the High court and hope that the Judge doesn't strike out straight away because of the 21 day lapse.

 

Anyone know the best way to deal with this please?

Thanks

[ss002d6252]

It appears that your dispute is a matter of liability , this is a matter which you should have dealt with via a valuation tribunal if the council have decided they are not willing to move on the decision.

 

Why do you think you are not liable for the period in question ?

[chillinlong]

Thanks for reply.

 

Reasons why I am not liable are tenants were in place of liability periods and copies of tenancies were sent to council but obviously not acknowledged. Other reason is a business rates that had a lease in the name of 'my name TRADING AS company name ltd' therefore if I understand correctly the company name is liable, this is 40% of the debt. Other 30% is another business rates that has always been tenanted and copies of lease provided to business rates but again not acknowledged.

 

I know it was silly but I assumed I would be able to resolve this with council by sending them the proofs but it did not register with them.

 

I am wondering whether I can now overturn the liability orders? As I understand it maybe now too late because the 21 days has gone so far past.

[ss002d6252]

So you have NNDR and Council Tax arrears.

 

A few more questions:

 

Did you not supply copies of agreements at the original time of the tenancies ?.

 

What are the specifics of the agreements - AST's for the whole property, rental agreements only for a room within the property etc ?

 

Are the properties adapted for multiple occupancy (e.g as per HMO licensing or similar) ?

[chillinlong]

Some properties are business rates which I have sent leases previously and agencies always send copies when tenants are signed up.

 

One property though was not mine for business rates, however it appears my lease was invalid as previous lease was not revoked. Whereas my lease was joint with previous tenant but another tenant removed. I understand that makes this lease invalid because previous tenant who was removed on new lease did not approve nor landlord did not revoke lease to be able to vary name. And also the lease was in my name trading as company name, so not sure if I or company is liable.

 

The tenancies are for whole house and tenants are liable for tax. One of the liabilities though is a sitting tenant who has whole house to himself but been in recievership for some time. The recievers collect rent and the council are saying it is HMO.

[chillinlong]

Hi

Just one more thought, you mention valuation tribunal. I understand this is only good for tax banding not tax liabilities, is this correct?

Thanks

[ss002d6252]

Just one more thought, you mention valuation tribunal. I understand this is only good for tax banding not tax liabilities, is this correct?

 

The valuation tribunal deal with all area of council tax liability as well as banding.

[ss002d6252]

The tenancies are for whole house and tenants are liable for tax. One of the liabilities though is a sitting tenant who has whole house to himself but been in recievership for some time. The recievers collect rent and the council are saying it is HMO.

 

The council must have some suggestion that he tenant is renting the whole of the property (or has it been adapted for multiple occupancy at some point ?) so have they given you a reason for deeming it a HMO ?

[ss002d6252]

And also the lease was in my name trading as company name, so not sure if I or company is liable.

 

If the company was limited you can't be trading as the company, the company would be a separate legal entity and responsible for its own debts.

[chillinlong]

Thanks for answers, is it too late to apply to overturn the liability orders?

 

And do I need to put in application to Magistrates court? Or High court? Ive had suggestions as to both but noobody is really clear on what the proper process is nor whether it is too late.

 

The lease said 'my name Trading as company name ltd'. But because liability order was obtained within last year, I am concerned I might have missed the boat to overturn.

 

Thanks again

[ss002d6252]

my name Trading as company name ltd

 

That's not a legal description and the lease couldn't be attributed under that name - its either you who had the lease or the company.

 

Or High court? I've had suggestions as to both but nobody is really clear on what the proper process is nor whether it is too late.

 

It would have to be the High Court - the council can ask the magistrates to set aside the order but if you want to then you need to appeal to the High Court. I think your out of time but it may be worth appealing anyway.

[chillinlong]

So does that make the lease invalid or arguable?

 

I will then have to appeal to the High Courts tomorrow morning with the evidence and hope for the best.

Thanks again!

[chillinlong]

The other thing is if appeal to magistrates decision, should it not be to County Court?

 

The stat demand shows 17k debt, but the defence evidence produced at the courts to set aside stat demand only shows liabilities adding to 11k. I am wondering is it too late put in defence to stat demand on disputing amount as the 21 days has lapsed (July was served) But the hearing was Friday when Judge dismissed to set aside on basis of insolvency 13.4.3.

 

"Where the debt claimed in the statutory demand is based on a judgment, order, liability order, costs certificate, tax assessment or decision of a tribunal, the court will not at this stage inquire into the validity of the debt nor, as a general rule, will it adjourn the application to await the result of an application to set aside the judgment, order decision, costs certificate or any appeal."

[ss002d6252]

The other thing is if appeal to magistrates decision, should it not be to county courticon?

 

The county court is the civil division of the courts, the magistrates the criminal division of the courts - they are at the same level of hierarchy in the court system, they just specialise in different areas. The High Court is the superior court to both of the courts.

 

"Where the debt claimed in the statutory demand is based on a judgment, order, liability order, costs certificate, tax assessment or decision of a tribunal, the court will not at this stage inquire into the validity of the debt nor, as a general rule, will it adjourn the application to await the result of an application to set aside the judgment, order decision, costs certificate or any appeal."

This is used as the debt has already been proved to be subject to a liability order - the court hearing was to decide if to grant an order, not to decide if the debts existed.

 

I am wondering is it too late put in defence to stat demand on disputing amount as the 21 days has lapsed (July was served)

Why have you left it so long ?.

[chillinlong]

I left it so long because I was not living at the address where the post was going to and I only got some post forwarded to me. It dawned on me when I seen the evidence of the stat demand hearing of all the liability orders in place already.

 

Not sure if this is justifiable though. Thanks

[chillinlong]

Sorry just realised what you meant as last question.

 

I recieved stat demand in July, then put in application to set aside within 21 days. But the hearing for this was on the Friday just gone. Therefore I am wondering am I able to still apply to set aside again or to dispute the amount? Or does everything have to be filed within 21 days regardless whether you were waiting for a hearing or not?

 

Thanks again

[chillinlong]

Cant get my head around this.

 

Went to high court to submit application to overturn liability order. Was refused to accept applications and was told to go to Magistrates court to deal with. Went to Magistrates court, they then also refused my application on the basis that liability orders are not dealt with there. They said to formally complain to the council.

 

I went back to High Court, they were scratching their heads. They said I need to get legal advice, I said been to CAB. business debtline and legal advice and none of them knows the correct process. I said I haven't got money for legal advice and need to know the correct process, and no one could help.

 

Was strange!

 

Not sure what to do here

[chillinlong]

Hi All,

Anybody have any idea the correct process?

Thanks

[ss002d6252]

A quick summary is here but you will need a solicitor to take you through what the actual paperwork would need to be to lodge the appeal.

http://www.harrow.gov.uk/info/200028/council_tax/772/appeals-council_tax_grounds_for_appeal/3

[chillinlong]

Thanks but that is what I did.

 

Am going to write letter to Magistrates to reopen and to ombudsman.

[ss002d6252]

The Ombudsman cannot force decisions on the council, it can only make recommendations. The Valuation Tribunal make decisions which the council has to follow.

[chillinlong]

Thanks for reply, was told this by the Council today as had meeting with them, was actually quite helpful but it remains to be seen whether the court process works:

 

"The magistrates can reopen a decided liability order matter using common law powers to correct an injustice which prejudices the taxpayer, but the application to the magistrates must be made promptly by the taxpayer. Such things which would be allowable could be:

The taxpayer was unable to attend court because of a sudden illness, etc and has a potentially valid defence;

For whatever reason the taxpayer did not have notice of the hearing plus a potential defence;

The taxpayer requested an adjournment but the magistrates were not made aware of that, plus a potential defence etc;

See cases such as Liverpool CC v Pleroma Distribution Ltd (QBD) 2002 and R (Newham LBC) v Stratford magistrates’ Court and Selwin Dublin (QBD) 2008"

I will try again with Magistrates court via letter and see how this progresses.

Thanks