Cap1 & CCA return

[un1boy]

Fair enough - I agree.

[tamadus]

Hi everyone, I'll be up and running properly again just as soon as I get something in the oven for dinner

 

Reading back a few posts though, one thing I am finding about the CCA is that almost everything can be argued. virtually every section has an equal and opposite somewhere if we look for it .

 

The total charge for credit has to be stated as Pete rightly said, BUT as the interest rate can vary then so can the total charge for credit, hence it is sufficient within the act for that charge to form part of the terms and conditions, which in turn form a major part of the agreement.

[Number6]

BUT as the interest rate can vary then so can the total charge for credit, hence it is sufficient within the act for that charge to form part of the terms and conditions, which in turn form a major part of the agreement.

 

So the original agreement should state the APR and total charge as it stands when the agrement is struck.

 

Any subsequent variations are then notified to the debtor which is what does happen.

 

Pete

[tamadus]

sandrajl can you clear your PM box please

[tamadus]

So the original agreement should state the APR and total charge as it stands when the agrement is struck.

 

Any subsequent variations are then notified to the debtor which is what does happen.

 

Pete

 

thats effectively it and it mostly works. Mostly problems with the total charge for credit seem to occur when its been wrongly calculated or something has been missed from the calculation.

[un1boy]

So the original agreement should state the APR and total charge as it stands when the agrement is struck.

 

Any subsequent variations are then notified to the debtor which is what does happen.

 

Pete

 

That's what I would have thought too!

[poltmcm]

that would be my interpetation also

[un1boy]

thats effectively it and it mostly works. Mostly problems with the total charge for credit seem to occur when its been wrongly calculated or something has been missed from the calculation.

 

I'm sory Tam, can you expalin what you mean by, "thats effectively it and it mostly works. ".

 

Sorry, I'm just a bit confused by what you mean!

[tamadus]

I'm sory Tam, can you expalin what you mean by, "thats effectively it and it mostly works. ".

 

Sorry, I'm just a bit confused by what you mean!

 

MY slapdash way of saying thats how it works. They give the interest rate and total charge in the original agreement and then notify us of a change under the terms and conditions.

[un1boy]

ahh, right - thanks. sept my agreemet makes no mention at af the rate or total charge!

[Number6]

Just checked my Egg agreements and they do clearly state, in the main agreement, the APR and monthly charges.

 

Pete

[tamadus]

ahh, right - thanks. sept my agreemet makes no mention at af the rate or total charge!

 

It may even be included somewhere in the terms and conditions. As the T&C form part of the agreement I assume it would be ok to include it there.

[tamadus]

OK folks from what I am seeing so far a trend started a few years ago by the companies of the application form actually being the main body of the agreement. Most of them so far do have the CCA aproved bits in them.

 

This is something I am going ot lobby for a change in.

 

I can imagine a scenario where I send in an application that is declined. In 10 years that application could suddenly appear as a debt, They would have a valid agreement and I have no way of disproving it without the bother of going to court. Even then its very possible for some unscrupulous person to concoct statement etc to show I had been paying the account.

 

My thought are that on sending in an application, ONLY if it's approved should they send me the agreement IN FULL for signing. a copy of that fully signed and executed agreement sahould then be provided before a card is even issued.

[un1boy]

It may even be included somewhere in the terms and conditions. As the T&C form part of the agreement I assume it would be ok to include it there.

 

oh, ok...i don't understand though why if the CCA says this infomust be in the agreement, itis acceptable for it to be in T&C's which are ot printed on the agreement. and confirmation that these T&C's have been seen is our sig....makes no sense at all!

[un1boy]

Just checked my Egg agreements and they do clearly state, in the main agreement, the APR and monthly charges.

 

Pete

 

Yep, so does mine.. are actually very thorough - their DPA was the only one whi actuall gave all details they held, with explanatory notes

[un1boy]

OK folks from what I am seeing so far a trend started a few years ago by the companies of the application form actually being the main body of the agreement. Most of them so far do have the CCA aproved bits in them.

 

This is something I am going ot lobby for a change in.

 

I can imagine a scenario where I send in an application that is declined. In 10 years that application could suddenly appear as a debt, They would have a valid agreement and I have no way of disproving it without the bother of going to court. Even then its very possible for some unscrupulous person to concoct statement etc to show I had been paying the account.

 

My thought are that on sending in an application, ONLY if it's approved should they send me the agreement IN FULL for signing. a copy of that fully signed and executed agreement sahould then be provided before a card is even issued.

 

That makes sense

[tamadus]

oh, ok...i don't understand though why if the CCA says this infomust be in the agreement, itis acceptable for it to be in T&C's which are ot printed on the agreement. and confirmation that these T&C's have been seen is our sig....makes no sense at all!

 

The terms and conditions always form part of the agreement. Lets call it the contract side of it. Thats the only way they can make any changes in the agreement. Unfortunately we have a take it or leave it attitude by them regarding those terms. If we sign the agreement (application form) then we are agreeing that we have seen, read and understand those terms and conditions.

[un1boy]

so, the CCA states that a credit agreement must include the rate, because the T&C's are deemed part of it, and the rate is in them, they are, in respect of the CCA, in the agreement?

 

Surely if that's the case though, the creditor should have to provide a copy of the original T&C's as they are part of the agreement? Otherwise they could allege that we agreed to anything?!

 

(sorry about the dis-jointed words and spelling, this keyboard is crap!!! grrr...)

[Number6]

so, the CCA states that a credit agreement must include the rate, because the T&C's are deemed part of it, and the rate is in them, they are, in respect of the CCA, in the agreement?

 

Surely if that's the case though, the creditor should have to provide a copy of the original T&C's as they are part of the agreement? Otherwise they could allege that we agreed to anything?!

 

(sorry about the dis-jointed words and spelling, this keyboard is crap!!! grrr...)

 

This is where the "up for argument" bit comes into play. All the prescribed terms should be in the document we actually sign IMHO. For the signed agreement to refer to some other obscure document that we may or may not have seen is not secure.

 

Pete

[tamadus]

so, the CCA states that a credit agreement must include the rate, because the T&C's are deemed part of it, and the rate is in them, they are, in respect of the CCA, in the agreement?

 

Surely if that's the case though, the creditor should have to provide a copy of the original T&C's as they are part of the agreement? Otherwise they could allege that we agreed to anything?!

 

(sorry about the dis-jointed words and spelling, this keyboard is crap!!! grrr...)

 

Agreed and most of them do supply it, although its usually that very small print you need a magnifying glass to see.

[tamadus]

This is where the "up for argument" bit comes into play. All the prescribed terms should be in the document we actually sign IMHO. For the signed agreement to refer to some other obscure document that we may or may not have seen is not secure.

 

Pete

 

I'm in full agreement with you Pete, as you know, on this. I will in due course be putting things like this forward for consideration.

 

When we sit down and really read the wording of the CCA and get through the legalese of it then it actually has a lot of flaws which appear very counter productive. I suspect that like most acts of parliament those who shouted loudest got their points included, those like the consumer who didnt have any idea it was being formulated never got heard.

[un1boy]

I see......I've only got HSBC and Egg to compare with each other, wasn't aware of any other agreements you see......interesting though!

[tamadus]

so, the CCA states that a credit agreement must include the rate, because the T&C's are deemed part of it, and the rate is in them, they are, in respect of the CCA, in the agreement?

 

Surely if that's the case though, the creditor should have to provide a copy of the original T&C's as they are part of the agreement? Otherwise they could allege that we agreed to anything?!

 

(sorry about the dis-jointed words and spelling, this keyboard is crap!!! grrr...)

 

The one company that have sent me the agreement finally has also included a (bad) photocopy of the original T&C from 1987.

 

Un1boy np about the keyboard but it does remind me of something one of my lecturers once told me '98% of computer problems rest between the keyboard and the chair' ;-)

[Number6]

When we sit down and really read the wording of the CCA and get through the legalese of it then it actually has a lot of flaws which appear very counter productive. I suspect that like most acts of parliament those who shouted loudest got their points included, those like the consumer who didnt have any idea it was being formulated never got heard.

 

I agree. The more I read it (and that's a little more each day) the more aghast I'm becoming. There's no real protection there at all IMHO.

 

And yes, those that shout loudest get included as I found out in nearly three years of dealing with DEFRA / government regarding what became the NERC Act 2006 as you know.

 

Pete

[sam19677]

The one company that have sent me the agreement finally has also included a (bad) photocopy of the original T&C from 1987.

 

Un1boy np about the keyboard but it does remind me of something one of my lecturers once told me '98% of computer problems rest between the keyboard and the chair' ;-)

You do make me smile:p