Ingeus

[Mr.P]

If a sanction is imposed while you are claiming JSA and then sign off to avoid the consequences, you may find the sanction takes effect if/when you sign on again after a few months - Not sure how long they keep sanctions on file with the current regime.

 

A "pre-screen" interview is no guarantee of a job offer and it is usually best to at least attend the appointment (dressed as if you intend to get the job). You can always claim travel expenses back from Ingeus if they made the arrangements and have a day out at their expense.

[Mr.P]

I think I have a job interview next week anyway for something I want, so if that goes well then hopefully I can say goodbye to Ingeus & JCP!

 

Good luck with the interview, and if you do get the job, remember that you do not have to tell the JCP or Ingeus why you sign off - Last time I just left the form blank and jobsworth insisted on a reason, so I penned "'personal reasons, and 'cos I can".

[Mr.P]

It seems A4E in Liverpool won the euromillions in their syndicate of 10

 

The "syndicate" was actually eleven, but one of them was taking a sick day when the stake was being collected. As a result, she was refused a share of the £28m jackpot... My message to her - Well now you know what it is like being screwed by a bunch of Emma's Harpies.

[Mr.P]

andyjay: At your next meeting, inform Mr Addled Hither that HMRC were very interested in the tape of the previous conversation and that he should expect to receive a visit from the fraud investigation team at some point (it matters not that you actually made a tape, but it will make him squirm).

 

In future, I would certainly recommend recording all interactions with these so called "advisers", if only to support an appeal if they attempt to impose a sanction. Also comes in handy to back up claims of wrong doing, fraud, or any other dubious activity.. Oh, and snide comments about weight comes under the heading of psychological abuse, and depending on context, could lead to a criminal prosecution.

[Mr.P]

BomBomBom: Two things:

 

• An appointment made by phone, text, or email is not mandatory. Any mandatory notices must be issued in writing and posted with sufficient notice. Refer them to DWP Provider Guidance for details.
  

 

• ALL travel expenses should be reimbursed by the provider. Failure to do so is in breach of their contract and ignores all the DWP guidance issued on the subject.
  

It could also be argued that as you are recovering from surgery and under instruction from a qualified medical practitioner to rest, that travel to their office is unreasonable.

[Mr.P]

alpo287: Just to add to what RebeccaPidgeon has said - Be very careful what you say to Ingeus. If you have told them that you are currently self-employed and are telling the DWP that you are unemployed, just hope that the two don't talk. You'd be better off in the long term to tell Ingeus "None of your business what I'm doing" and respond to any further questions with "no comment".

At some point, Ingeus will submit an outcome claim because you have told them that you are "in work". If the DWP show due diligence and check to see if you are still claiming JSA, they will start asking questions.

 

The last thing you want is to be dragged in for an interview under caution !

[Mr.P]

Ingeus work with jobcentre Plus clients on behalf of the department for Work and Pensions in order to help them find and sustain work.Ingeus are obligated to submit details of participant employment for a number of reasons including audit and statistical purposes, as well as to claim funding to meet operating costs. The accuracy of the information submitted is paramount and we therefore need to verify these details at several points of the participants employment in order to ensure this.

 

The accuracy of submitted data is their responsibility, not yours. If you do not wish to provide them with details of previous employment, that is your choice - Should Ingeus continue to press for the information, as on what legal basis you are obligated to provide the information.

 

A simple statement to the effect that "I was employed as a for a period of months" should suffice.

[Mr.P]

What a joke. And I'm supposed to take employment advice from this company who can't conduct a sentence properly?

 

I haven't been on JSA since my last payment on the 19th June and have been waiting on my ESA money coming in (I only got the form in for that last week) so what exactly can Ingeus do to affect my benefits? My sick note from the doctor that went in the ESA form confirmed I would be unable to look for work for 8 weeks and I've already told them numerous times my situation and they keep harassing me.

 

Time to write a few letters of complaint. One to Ingeus head office, another to the DWP, and finally, one to your MP. You have been signed off as being unfit to work by qualified medical practitioners, the harassment by Ingeus is unwarranted and the stress caused is affecting your recovery. A letter to the offending Ingeus office stating that you are no longer claiming JSA and no further attempts to contact you should shut them up for a while (no need to tell them that you have transferred to ESA).

 

Oh, and they can not book you on to a "mandatory" course for the following day - They must do it in writing and give sufficient notice.

 

got spoken to like dirt because I apparently have an attitude problem.

 

You do not have an "attitude problem". It is them that have a problem with your attitude

Edited July 31, 2013 by Mr.P

[Mr.P]

Thanks for the reply, but how should i respond to this letter? I noticed the person said If am willing to do this and that it won't affect my participation on the programme

 

Something along the lines of:

To whom it may concern.

 

Whilst you have a contractual obligation to provide accurate details to the DWP in order to receive outcome payments, there is no legal or moral requirement for me to supply the information. Until such time as you can quote specific legislation that overrides my rights to privacy, details of recent employment shall remain confidential.

 

In closing, I will take the opportunity to remind you that I do not consent to my personal information being stored or processed by yourselves.

 

Yours Sincerely

...

[Mr.P]

Thanks very much, I couldn't have put it better myself, are you still with this charming organization also?I can't wait to break free from the bull****.

 

I have managed to avoid this particular bunch, but their modus operandi is well known and common across the "industry". Blame the unemployed for being out of work, bully them into worthless "courses", and generally insult or degrade them. In the meantime, tell the government and the public what a wonderful job they do by providing tailored and personalised support to each and every "client".

 

The thing is even if I was to agree to this crap, as soon as I got a job I would just hand new waiver, but do not want to be taken advantage of in the meantime in this hellhole.

 

Knowledge is power - With the DWP issued provider guidance notes in one hand and a recording device in the other, these "advisers" are a little more cautious with their threats. Fear is their biggest weapon and also their weakness. I would go in to a "meeting" with a tape recorder, a red pen, and a Leki walking stick (good for poking or whacking ).

[Mr.P]

He also grabbed her arm as we were leaving another building as he happened to be entering, and asked if she had received his voice mail message!!! she had told him Not to send voicemails over a year ago previously.

 

Now my question is this, as he has not helped one jot, in the 18 months that she attended A4E, does she bother to speak to this WP [personal abuse removed] and tell him where to shove his mandated phone call, or should she ignore him and keep him guessing so he can't get his outcome fee?

 

Taking hold of an arm without consent is common assault - A criminal offence that can be prosecuted for and lead to fines and/or a prison sentence in the most extreme of cases. (Had that one covered as part of a recent First Aid at Work course).

 

A short letter to A4e head office demanding that no further contact is to be made in any form should be posted off Monday. Point out that as Mrs Signmaker is no longer in receipt of JSA, therefore there is no legal or contractual obligation to respond to any demands sent out by A4e. Should any staff see fit to attempt any further contact, it will be regarded as harassment and/or stalking and WILL be reported to the police and other regulatory bodies.

 

Should any A4e staff assault you or your wife, you are quite within your rights to defend yourselves with appropriate and proportional force. For example, someone grabs her arm from the side or behind, a quick knee to the groin or kick to the leg would be an instinctive and appropriate response. To follow up with a gouging of the eye may be considered excessive unless the assailant continued in his/her actions.

Edited August 10, 2013 by honeybee13
Quoting a post with an unwanted word in it.

[Mr.P]

can you get sanctioned for not telling ingeus or a sub provider about interviews etc..

 

I wouldn't put it past them to threaten such a course of action, but can you imagine the derision that such an act is likely to produce should it end up on a DM's desk ???

 

The press would also have a field day with that one - Unemployed man sanctioned for attending a job interview

[Mr.P]

Dear Admins, Could we please have a stickied thread/forum where people like me can easily access for tips and advice when dealing with Ingeus please?

 

Devious tricks and horror stories are not just the domain of Ingeus - They are just as bad as the rest of the Welfare to Work providers promising a magical fix to get everyone in to work and failing miserably.

[Mr.P]

Could you point to specific posts that could be copied into a stikky ?

 

Some of the posts to http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?390024-Mandate-by-WP-provider-Guidance-notes would be candidates.

[Mr.P]

Without the correct "mandatory appointment", the letter is just an invite. You have the choice to ignore it or treat it as a free ride in to town if you desire.

 

Be warned though - They may try to raise a Failure to Attend sanction, but without the correct (and complete) wording, it would be simple enough to appeal.

[Mr.P]

So it would be advisable for me to phone them less than 48 hrs before to let them know I will not be attending because it is not a mandatory appointment.

 

I wouldn't say anything about the missing mandation text - Wouldn't want them to know too much about their own business... I'd go with a short letter simply saying "Kindly reschedule your appointment on for another date at a convenient time as I have other matters to attend to on the day in question".

[Mr.P]

A total waste of time and as far as I'm aware, most employers dislike follow-up calls as it wastes their time. And I also hate taking cold-calls at home, so practising it would make me something of a hypocrite.

 

Cold calling could be interpreted as a possible breach of the Telecommunications (Data Protection and Privacy) Regulations 1999 as well as the Privacy and Electronic Communications (EC Directive) (Amendment) Regulations 2004. Also, many potential employers will file prospective client applications in the recycle bin if they receive follow up calls.

 

A suggestion that your "adviser" reads up on the above mentioned regulations should give him/her something to think about for a few minutes (assuming they can comprehend legal documents).

 

 

 

Between you'n'me, those two laws apply to marketing and spam faxes/emails, but if they want to feed you BS, you've got something to slap them down with

[Mr.P]

However the JC advisor did say that Ingeus would be getting into bother over the lack of information on their exit reports[...]. The Ingeus exit report was, in her words, 'worthless'.

 

"worthless" pretty much sums up the help and support from virtually (if not all) WP providers. But without any monitoring and regular audits of a "black box" approach, it was to be expected.

 

JC will share all its info with a WP exploiter and they don't need your permission to do so. This is because the JC are deemed to be the data controller and the WP (and any other subs in the chain) are data users. It is safe to assume that whatever the JC knows the WP exploiters know as well.

 

The controller/processor cop-out is a common tactic to share information and this is not just limited to the activities of the DWP. There is only one way to combat this - Refuse permission for the JCP/DWP to share personal information with third parties OR subcontractors and only provide the bare minimum of details. On "signing off" and closing your JSA claim, there is no legal requirement to provide employer details. You can just put "personal reasons" or "none of the above" in the relevant box when handing in the form. This is what I did, and when pressed for more information by jobsworth, penned "NFI" underneath.

 

Note: Uploading a CV to UJ automatically gives the DWP free reign over distributing it to all and sundry.

[Mr.P]

I managed to contact my adviser and cite the relevant telephone regulations in objection to cold-calling. It worked. My cold-calling sessions have now been changed to lone job search sessions.

 

[Mr.P]

Dark 1: I hope you record all conversations

 

If this office is indeed small and cramped as you say, how do they expect to ensure client confidentiality ?

If you overhear discussions regarding debt, health issues, criminal records, or any other personal information, make a note of names. Then write to the DWP outlining the details of the conversations and ask what steps they are taking to protect client confidentiality. That should get a few backsides kicked

[Mr.P]

All that will happen is that you'll incur the wrath of the adviser and you'll get more crap slung your way and with the support of head office to back them up. You should, of course, complain up the chain about anything that needs complaining about but the procedure is deliberately drawn out by the provider making it very stressful for the complainant.

 

Indeed, I have had first hand experience of an "adviser" turn on me after reporting a security breach way above her head. In this particular instance, the report went fairly high up in the DWP before the provider got reprimanded for their lapses - It didn't do me any good, but I did use a defence of "a vindictive and vexatious response to a number of outstanding complaints against " when they tried to sanction me.

 

Outstanding and unresolved complaints:

 

• Atrocious punctuation and grammar in provider issued documents.
  
• Poor spelling and grammar in meeting reports (most of which consisted of a single line).
  
• Zero personalised support
  
• Failure to reimburse travel expenses (eventually resolved)
  
• No suitable training offered, not even the basics.
  
• No client confidentiality with lip service given to the notion.
  
• Poor record storage that led to at least one instance of unauthorised access.
  

The last two were certainly worth raising complaints over by going directly to the DWP and not giving the provider a chance to sweep it under the carpet - They tried, but still got more than they bargained for.

[Mr.P]

Always threaten to complain directly to the DWP, no point in complaining to Ingeus managers as they're hardly likely to take our side.

 

Always remember that we're not the ones acting like we make the rules - they are.

 

Do not make threats. Take a proactive role and do it. If WP staff ignore official DWP guidance and fail to follow "due process", they could be in breach of their contract - The more serious the failings of the provider, the higher up the ladder at the DWP a complaint should be sent to. The complaints will invariably get passed back to the provider where they will try to write it off as a disgruntled client trying to make trouble. Having evidence, either written or video/audio recordings is always advantageous to have should the provider try to brush it under the carpet.

[Mr.P]

I hadn't attended an appointment on the 30th of January 2013. This being 8 month before the law was in place, and I had just received notice of the appointment on the day of the appointment (not the first time this has happened)

 

Do you still have the original letter and the envelope it came in ?

 

DWP issued guidance clearly states that a reasonable time must be allowed between sending a mandatory letter out. Posting a letter 2nd class for an appointment three days later is unacceptable as Royal Mail quote a 3-7 day delivery. First class post is slightly better with a 1-3 day delivery - If you need official delivery targets and numbers for missed targets, drop me a note.

 

Your reconsideration should emphasise the point that posting a letter for it to arrive on the day of the appointment (if postie delivered after the time, even better) does not allow sufficient time to travel to the meeting and demonstrates a complete lack of regard on the part of the provider towards published DWP guidance.

[Mr.P]

Unfortunately, the legislation that the DWP is using to sanction you has a retrospective clause in it that allows them to get away with it - It sucks and sets a very unpleasant precedent. You are not the first to find this out either, see: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?400247-Sanctions-Twelve-Months-after-Doubt

 

Royal Mail claim to deliver 98.5% of 2nd class with 3-5 days. However, industrial disputes or bad weather will impact on this target. You can also expect delays at Christmas time, and if RM have a bad time of it (as they did a couple of years ago due to heavy snow across the country), delays will continue well in to January. Check to see if there were any strikes in your area by RM workers in January.

 

As you have received notice of a sanction, I'd advise writing back to the DWP stating that:

 

• The original appointment letter failed to arrive in good time due to delays in posting and in delivery.
  
• An email was sent as soon as the letter arrived (include a printout).
  
• No notice was issued by the DWP advising of a benefit doubt.
  
• Have yet to receive proper notification along with any details of the appeals process.
  

A visit to your local CAB office may also help in drafting a suitable letter to get the appeal process running. They will probably also give you advice about dealing with the council when your HB/CT benefits get suspended.

Edited August 21, 2013 by Mr.P

[Mr.P]

If you use email to communicate with them, ask for conformation from your "adviser".

Failing that, save the voicemail (if you can) on to disk and take the day off.