Ingeus

[Mr.P]

I knew mine were thieving ****

Stealing from the unemployed - how low can you go as a charity?

 

I'm sure that if you wrote to:

Derek French/Clare Elliot

Head of Work Programmes

Department for Work and Pensions

Level 4

Steel City House

56 West Street

Sheffield

S1 2GQ

This pair would appear to be top of the food chain as far as overseeing the activities of the providers - If nothing else, they won't be happy to get letters indicating possible fraud... You never know, your provider may get a kick up the backside

 

Oh, as to where the name & address came from - It was at the top of a letter sent to seven failing primes back in November 2012 telling them to pull their socks up (copies available on request).

[Mr.P]

"Hi, this is Max from [drone]. I understand you took Little Johnny on recently as a gardener. How's he doing....ah..I see... Time keeping OK is it..... Oh.... So he is turning up on time and doing the work OK, but you're having to let him go because he keeps wetting the beds. Would it help if we provided him with incontinence pants ?....um, so you'd still have to let him go.."

Edited June 30, 2013 by citizenB

[Mr.P]

"Max, you f[deleted]wit. I said he is incompetent and keeps p***ing on the flowerbeds."

[Mr.P]

Yeah that is the completely logical way any normal person looks at it, however I worry JSA turn around and say oh your word against theirs! and I think what the hell?....

 

Always insist on copies of all paperwork and demand everything is put in writing - At least this way you have some form of paper trail when they screw up. It is also worth insisting on all communication to be in writing, i.e. no phone calls..

 

I was always blunt to the point of being rude when ever A4e rang me and constantly reminded them of the "by letter only" rule - If nothing else, it costs them more time and money.

 

Oh... Also found out yesterday that declining to sign any papers is not a sanctionable "offence" according to a response to a DWP FoI request.

[Mr.P]

I have a simple rule: Never lodge a complaint with front-line staff, always go to the top. High level managers do not want to waste time dealing with complaints, so will pass them back down the food chain and quite likely kick butt in the process. It also alerts the upper levels to the possibility that there are problems at the bottom.

 

In the case of a provider failing to refund travel expenses, yes, go over their heads and complain direct to the head of the WP at the DWP. (I'm not paying my taxes so that he/she can sit in a comfy office doing buggerall).

[Mr.P]

I don't like wasting my time with things, it is a pain for me to get to Ingeus to be only asked to apply for jobs. What did you guys/girls do?

 

Must admit I never really had to face that - Did come close when an adviser suggested that a "supervised job search might help you to...". She never got as far as completing the sentence. If she had, I would have pointed out that the data I use for CVs and cover letters are all stored on my computer at home - A system that she has neither the authority or skills to use.

 

If you are feeling confrontational, you could suggest that the last set of DWP figures regarding their abysmal performance would indicate that the staff are neither experienced or qualified.

[Mr.P]

What about if you are mandated for a stupid course such as job seeking but no mention of how long it is?

 

Would argue that a mandated activity without a clearly defined start and finish date contrary to Chapter 3, paragraph 33 of the WP Provider Guidance* is unenforceable. If it mandates you to undertake an activity that can be accomplished to a higher standard at home, then demand an explanation as to how it meets the requirements of paragraph 30 of the same guidance notes. Also insist on documentary evidence on how this "activity" fits in with the "tailored and personalised support".

 

Also worth reading paragraphs 28 (display of ESF & JCP logo) and paragraph 34 - If the correct wording is not used in full, the mandation notice is unlikely to be enforceable.

 

* www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/wp-pg-chapter-3a-22-october-2012.pdf

[Mr.P]

Hi (my first name) I can confirm this appointment has been booked with her business signiture and Ingeus office details below this.

Do you think this is enough proof if a doubt was ever raised. I haven't had a mandated letter in the post.

 

As per posting just above, read para.34 (if you're a JSA participant) of www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/wp-pg-chapter-3a-22-october-2012.pdf - Without the correct wording, the email does not constitute a valid mandation in my opinion. But I would advise caution as a DWP DM may disagree and you'd then have to go through the appeal process.

 

Certainly worth admonishing the "adviser" for sloppy email etiquette and failure to follow correct procedures

 

Edit: reading through Chapter 3a again, it states that "a MAN can be as simple as a letter". No where does it state that email or telephone calls are acceptable alternatives. Maybe another reason to take a wet kipper with you on the 13th.

Edited May 2, 2013 by Mr.P

[Mr.P]

It's a lecture that is supposedly so important that I must be patronised into attending

 

Is it just for one hour, or god forbid, a whole day ?

 

Just pray that it isn't a "death by powerpoint" sentence, and if you are correctly mandated to attend, use the opportunity to "spread the word".... If, on the other hand, it is one of those NLP sessions, record it, challenge every statement, and question the qualifications of the Snake Oil Salesman in charge - But please be careful not to get thrown out for "misconduct" as that could lead to a sanction.

[Mr.P]

An hour isn't too bad - Just make sure travel expenses are refunded in full and upfront without any strings attached, then make him work for his money.

[Mr.P]

The MAN must be either handed directly or posted to the participant. If it is posted it is deemed to have been received on the second working day after posting (see above).

 

Damn. Has the DWP not updated that particular section... Built in to this guidance note is a path to automatic FTA sanction. Post a MAN on the Monday for an activity on the Thursday AM, stick a second class stamp on it. Royal Mail T&C gives a three to seven day window for delivery of 2nd class mail (1st class is one to three days). Postie delivers said letter on Thursday just after lunch.

 

Chester6: You really need to get those complaints sent off to the DWP. The sooner you can get collective butts kicked and your travel expenses refunded, the better you will feel. Brooding about it will only get you down.

[Mr.P]

There's different rules for 1st n 2nd class mail and assumed receipt.

 

There's even the rule that where evidence of postage is not recorded then 2nd class is assumed in all cases.

 

There will also be the actual envelope that will be stamped or franked as 2nd class.

 

So your above example is complete scare mongering [naughty word] tbf

 

Errmmm.... The intent was not one of scaremongering, but to point out a badly worded section of the guidance notes (it should make a distinction between 1st & 2nd class post, but it doesn't). That said, I did have A4e trying to pull a stunt on me by way of sending notice of a job to apply for. Posted out on a Monday 2nd class, deadline for applying was 18:00, Thursday. Got home late that day to find the deadline missed. When I admonished the "adviser" for the use of 2nd class post, her excuse was "We can not be held responsible for time it takes for Royal Mail to deliver a letter".

[Mr.P]

Once they've sent a letter, they're allowed to phone/email/text you later to give you a reminder - but that's all they can use those methods for.

 

But only if you have agreed to them phoning/emailing/texting - I had given A4e explicit (or so I had thought) instruction that all communication was to be in writing. Took a few calls ending with "and which part of in writing only do you not understand ?" before they got the message.

 

Oh, and if you have a landline, BT has this service that converts text messages to speech and replays it on any phone - Damned annoying, but fortunately it is easily disabled. See: http://www.bt.com/includingyou/calling-easier-unwanted-calls.html#more3 - Disabled that "service" a long time ago on my phone number.

[Mr.P]

They only get away with things because we didn't know the rules..but a lot of us do now

 

In addition to the specific guidance notes for WP Providers, there is also a raft of "generic" guidance notes intended to cover all DWP programs delivered by contractors. http://www.dwp.gov.uk/supplying-dwp/what-we-buy/welfare-to-work-services/provider-guidance/framework-generic-guidance.shtml

 

The section that Chester6 and others need to quote with regards to travel expenses is Chapter 2, Para. 140.

Participants attending provision are entitled to a refund of the travel costs they incur. It is your responsibility to pay the participant's costs as travel expenses are included within the funding received from DWP as part of the overall contract package.

 

In other words, if Ingeus (and others) are not refunding travel expenses as per contract, they are (possibly) committing fraud.

[Mr.P]

Can you go one better and print it on to a wet kipper (or failing that, an Attitude Readjustment Tool) ?

[Mr.P]

Some more suggestions for the T-shirts;

 

'Say PLEASE, not do it'

'Address me as SIR, not bud'

'You are stuck in here every day. I get to go home in five minutes.'

'Emancipation through employment' (modern version of "labour makes [you] free")

Edited May 5, 2013 by Mr.P

[Mr.P]

my advisor...(number 6) has told me i have to apply for this job he has printed off for me, it's for shop work which is fine as that is what i am after but it's full time and i am only after part time

 

If your JSag states "part time work only", then he'd have a hard time forcing you to apply (and that assumes he has issued a mandation notice with all the correct wording in writing). That said, it might be worth your while applying anyway - You never know, the shop might be willing to offer part time hours... In the meantime, your adviser may change before the next meeting and/or he might have forgotten about his demand.

 

If you need more info on the specific wording of a MAN, I'll dig out the references again - In a nutshell, it must be in writing, verbal/email/txt is not acceptable.

 

Oh, you might also want to read the terms and conditions of the UJ web site - Pay attention to the phrases "we accept no liability for..." and "will share data with any/all tom dick & harrys". If need be, print it out, highlight any/all sections that you might reasonably object to and thrust it under the nose of your adviser.

Edited May 8, 2013 by Mr.P

[Mr.P]

If a job seeker has an agreement in place with the JCP that states, for example, can work 09:00-16:00 Mon-Fri due to care responsibilities an never on a Sunday for religious reasons, then the answer should be no. To insist that someone with the (example) limits should work 07:00-19:00 would be unreasonable in the participants circumstances.

[Mr.P]

1. You have the freedom to develop your own processes to support participants, plan activity and manage their experience whilst on the Work Programme in line with your delivery model and contract terms and conditions.

 

Also worth asking how any of these "processes" fit in with "A personalised package of support that is tailored to your needs" [Ingeus Getting the most from our services.pdf thanks to: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/induction_of_your_customers_into]

[Mr.P]

Translation of the Ingeus speak:

We are crapping ourselves because we have failed to meet the minimum contracted targets. Rather than take the blame for our own incompetence, we will pass the buck. As a result, our victims^Wclients will carry the can and have their collective butts kicked for the most trivial of excuses.

Read up on the DWP guidance notes issued to the providers - Chapter and verse can be found on the DWP website. Insist on all communication to be backed up in writing (not email or text message), and record every conversation (their consent is not required).

 

As long as you meet the terms of your JSag, your Ingeus "adviser" is clutching at straws - It doesn't surprise me if (s)he lies about you, most of them have a track record for this, but as long as you have a paper trail & recordings to refute any false claims, you can stick a finger up at them.

 

Yes, I had one bunch claiming I threatened and abused staff, which they tried to back peddle on when I pointed out all conversations had been recorded.

Edited May 8, 2013 by Mr.P

[Mr.P]

You could also try turning the tables on Ingeus and ask "You claim to provide a tailored and personalised package of support - What are you doing to help me back in to work ?"....

 

Based on the results of the current Work Programme (and the previous incarnations), CV/letter writing courses and "supervised job searches" are a pretty poor substitute for genuine assistance.

[Mr.P]

I asked this and was told "that's not our job".

 

.... What the &%*! am I paying taxes for if these muppets just sit on their collective backsides.... If they are not providing support and help to get the unemployed back in to work, then they are in breach of their contract !

[Mr.P]

"all the famous people started in call centers"

[..]Applying for them was one of my weekly tasks , can I get sanctioned for then not full filling that task?

 

How many "famous people" can you name that worked in a call centre ?

Off the top of my head, the count is zero.

Have applied once for a call centre job for a double glazing outfit - On being told it was cold calling prospective customers, I suggested that it would involve illegal and possibly criminal activities (TPS & Telecommunications Act, etc). Didn't get the job, not that I wanted it anyway...

 

Has this "vacancy application" been correctly mandated as per DWP guidance, is it within the scope of your JSag, and is travel & hours reasonable ?

There are (a few) jobs in *this region that are 45min away by car, but using public transport, would take nearly two hours to get to - But the bus service stops after 20:00, and a shift typically ends at 22:00... So... If the written "weekly task" does not include the prescribed text ("if you do not....your benefits may be...") and/or it is not appropriate to your circumstances, then no, you would be unlikely to get a sanction.

 

 

Note: Applying for a job is not the same as getting one. An employer may decide to pull ten applications from a pile of two hundred and bin the rest. He/she may not even like your CV and throw it on the reject pile.

Edited May 9, 2013 by Mr.P

[Mr.P]

If she was stupid enough to raise a benefit doubt, a DM would slap her down at the first reading. You could then go in with a wet kipper to reminder her of her delusional stupidity.

[Mr.P]

Nobody wants to be a perpetual 'complainer' but it's getting to the point where we now have to exercise total zero tolerance and report these WP's for every infringement.

 

Indeed - Written complaints to the DWP citing a distrust in the providers process. Complaints to the DWP get logged and will appear in any FoI requests (& official statistics) and to some extent help to formulate ground rules for the next programme.

If sufficient complaints are received by the DWP about a specific point (i.e. travel expenses), it could trigger an investigation in to systemic abuses and fraud.