Ingeus

[Mr.P]

If you tell them you are recording them they would be within their rights to refuse to continue and mark you down as failing to participate. I had some success recording these sorts of interviews using a small device that resembles a USB flash drive

 

I had the "if you record this conversation, I'll report you for breaking the law"... No comment.

 

One method I have used to good effect: Place a cheap tape based dictaphone on the desk, and beside it, place a small digital recording device encased in a soft protective cover. If challenged, show the dictaphone is not turned on, but say nothing about the second device that was enabled the moment you entered the building. The pendant USB type device sounds like a very good idea, and appeals on the grounds of multiple redundancy (just in case they cotton on to the second recorder on the desk).

[Mr.P]

If they don't get the hint, then it may be a good idea to write a polite but firm letter to the manager of your local Ingeus office requiring that they stop contacting you.

 

A short, firm letter should be all that is required. You could point out that any further telephone calls may be treated as harassment under the The Protection from HarassmentAct 1997 and also in breach of the Communications Act 2003 - Either one could see the caller being held personally culpable as well as the managers all the way up to head office.

 

If the warning is not heeded, I sometimes favour the blunt approach:

"Hello little boy/girl. Does your mummy know you are playing with the phones again ?"

[Mr.P]

What is the best way of complaining about a work programme advisor

 

First question with reference to: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/264227/wp-pg-chapter-14.pdf

 

Has the provider complied with paragraph 3 and provided you with a copy of their complaints procedures ?

If not, a formal complaint should be lodged with the DWP regarding the failure to provide the documentation.

 

Once you have a copy of the complaints process (may as well ask this "adviser" for a copy ), you need to follow the "chain of command". Initially, a complaint should be sent to the office manager, then head office. If a satisfactory resolution is not forthcoming, and you have exhausted the other routes for a complaint (see: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/394690/wp-pg-chapter-16.pdf), you can then go to the Independent Case Examiner which will then cost the provider up to £5,000.

[Mr.P]

The fact they want me to do job search there everyday is annoying me as well as the constant phone calls from them.They even sent me a text last week asking me to call them urgently.

 

You can ask for a reconsideration of any "activity" if you think it inappropriate to your needs. If you do job searches at home with unfettered access to the internet, why would you need to use their computers which will prevent access to certain (unspecified) web sites. It goes without saying, you have all the necessary information to hand at home, but can not store this information on an insecure computer at their office...

 

You'll be glad to know that you do not have to respond to any phone calls, text messages, or emails originating from the "advisor". Any mandatory activity notice must be in writing and either handed to you or posted in good time.

[Mr.P]

My advisor tried to tell me that i could be sanctioned for not having a phone when my mobile broke a couple of months back which i always though was a load of rubbish.

 

Mobile phones are expensive to use. The unemployed need to cut back on any unnecessary expense so that they can live on the £72.40 that the government says is enough... Tell this "advisor" that you have to make savings, and the phone contract is earmarked for termination

[Mr.P]

You can die for your country at 18 yet they still class you as a child at 32.

 

Yup, and they also treat you like a child well in to your forties. One provider makes the bold claim that they "will treat you as we ourselves would like to be treated"... So I did

[Mr.P]

[...]nothing happened to THEM when they kept me waiting 1 1/2 hours....

 

IF they had kept me waiting for that long, be assured, I would have been making my displeasure known long before then

[Mr.P]

She is still badgering me to get my parents not to charge me rent if i do get a part time job.She has given me until 4 o clock to get them to change their mind.

 

You need to tell this "advisor" that your accommodation and financial arrangements are none of her business and when you want advice on such matters, you will seek proper guidance from a qualified expert.

 

Perhaps a simple "I don't think that is really any of your concern..." to start with, and then build up to a full blown verbal slap down.

[Mr.P]

Maybe I should start asking her personnel questions.

 

Might I suggest you keep the conversations business like. In the hope of a change in government come May, the prospects of the Work Programme continuing in its present form is under threat. Perhaps give her some advice on job hunting and budgeting on a paltry £72.40 per week.

[Mr.P]

I had believed there was a 2 year time limit to my stay with them but recently they have begun ring and harrassing my family while I am at work demanding to know details of my employers so they can 'close the books'.

 

Presumably you were a mandatory participant, not that it really matters... Ingeus are required to engage with you for the two years that you were on the programme, and also offer "support" whilst in employment for six months if you request it. If you have already verbally instructed them to cease contacting you, they should respect your wishes. As they are contacting other family members to elicit employer's details, then I would suggest a letter sent to their local office and head office. Something along the lines of:

I do not require any "support", help, or advice from your staff. I do not consent to you contacting myself, family members, or employers. Any attempt to do so will be treated as harassment under the Protection From Harassment Act, 1997, and also in breach of Article 8 of the European Convention of Human Rights. Be advised, any further attempts to elicit personal information will be reported to the relevant authorities, and if necessary, legal action against the individuals involved.

 

If you have any trouble understanding the above, I would recommend you seek qualified advice.

 

You are under no obligation to provide the information they seek. Indeed, there is anecdotal evidence out there on the web of people having lost their job after a W2W provider made contact with the employer.

 

If Ingeus continue to harass you or your family, then a formal complaint to the JCP/DWP may be in order.

[Mr.P]

Been referred to the dreaded ingeus scheme.

 

You have our sympathies.

 

As far as data protection goes, the Work Programme providers are 'data processors' acting on behalf of the DWP. It is the latter who are the 'data controllers' as far as the Data Protection Act is concerned. Therefore, withdrawing consent does little to protect yourself from their more questionable activities. By all means inform Ingeus that you do not consent to personal data being shared with third parties, but also send the same letter to the DWP.

 

You will be asked (possibly under threat of sanction) to sign some forms. Read them carefully, and if need be, insist on taking them away for a second opinion. If there is anything that you do not like, decline to sign them (even if they offer to cross out the offending sections). Quite often, DPA consent will be tucked away in the main body of their "agreement"...

 

It wouldn't hurt to print out extracts from the DWP issued provider guidance where it states that failing to sign a form is not subject to a benefit doubt. Back this up some Freedom of Information requests from the DWP on the subject - This will demonstrate to the Ingeus "adviser" that you are familiar with the guidance that they should be operating to and perhaps treat you with a little caution & respect.

[Mr.P]

I left it at that fearing if I mentioned there was no end time on my letter and why was there no European logo on the letter, (I read it somewhere they have to include this on all letters) they would blow a gasket.

 

You are correct. Their contract with the DWP require them to use both the JCP and ESF logos on all documents/letters in relation to any Work Programme provision. Save it for another day when you have the urge to poke a stick in the wasp-nest.

 

As for allowing them to retain a copy of your CV, by doing so, you have given them "implied consent" to store and process personal information. If you give them anything else, always add a note in a prominent position stating "not for redistribution" or something similar.

[Mr.P]

When was the letter dated ?

What date is on the postmark (if it has a stamp) ?

When was the appointment ?

 

The DWP issued guidance is that letters should be posted "in good time". So if you can answer the questions above, we can give you an opinion and help draw up a defence if they try to impose a sanction.

 

It is also possible to determine when this letter was sent by reading the orange bar code on the front of the letter. This is applied by Royal Mail as it goes through its letter sorting machines, and can be used to settle any arguments as to when a letter was posted. unfortunately, one requires access to a specialist bar-code reader to do this.

[Mr.P]

I have read that this year Ingeus will get no referral fee for clients.

 

Yup, from year 4 of the Work Programme, attachment fees drop to zero. It is supposed to give the providers more incentive to get the claimant in to sustained employment sooner. It is also worth pointing out that referrals have dropped from an average of 69,000 per month back in 2011 down to 29,000 per month last year (http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/sn06340.pdf). Not only have they lost their attachment fees, there are fewer claimants to make a profit from.

 

I have read that you can request them send all mail recorded post however in practice I can see them being reluctant due to the extra costs, I shall test this out on my next visit as my post is always delivered to the wrong address and I receive plenty of other peoples mail living in a flat complex I guess this is more common.

 

If you have issues with your post, long a complaint with Royal Mail, and keep pestering them on the matter. Each delivery round has a "book of notes" recording problem addresses, so get yours included - When the time comes, you can ask for a copy of these notes and use it in support of a sanction appeal. Also insist that the provider uses a "signed for" service. The extra cost is not your problem (must admit, I'm not aware of any specific guidance on this).

[Mr.P]

And with the power they yield I am wary they could make life very awkward indeed and remain within the law as such if I annoy them too much.

 

So I will chip away slowly and surely but also nod and bow at times.

 

When A4e were operating in my area, they claimed to "treat you how we ourselves expect to be treated". The "advisers" were patronising, insulting, and at times, threatening. To which I responded in kind. If there was any dispute about what was said, I always had a recording of the meeting to refer to and use as evidence should the need ever arise. When addressed by first name, the response was always "That is Sir to you !" - You are the client, and they are there to serve you.

 

Conduct yourself in a business like manner, print out copies of the DWP guidance (on their printer), and refer to it when needed. Once the staff know you are clued up on how they should be operating, they should be a little more circumspect.

[Mr.P]

In all fairness, I don't think anyone gets a finish time for their appointments. I have certainly never had one, just an indication of how long each session was supposed to take.

 

That said, if you were mandated to undertake a specific activity, it would be reasonable to expect the duration to be stated. For example: Attend office to undertake job-search activity for hours.

[Mr.P]

It was a mandated appointment so it should include a start and end time as indicated in the provider guidance, unless I have misread or misunderstood,

 

No, you have not misread nor misunderstood the published guidance. Well spotted (must admit, I've never noticed it stating "finish time"). Keep pulling them up on these details, and make it known that you are up to date with the current guidance.

[Mr.P]

Can i now be Mandated or sanctioned even though my claim is still being assessed?

 

If you are still on the assessment phase of an ESA claim, then the following is still current:

Mandatory participant moves from JSA to ESA

62. Where you are notified that a mandatory JSA participant has ceased their JSA to claim ESA, they remain attached with you and their participation requirements should be treated as the same as those of a Voluntary ESA participant until the outcome of the Work Capability Assessment (WCA)

From: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/417658/wp-pg-chapter-5-v8.pdf (Ver.8 updated 30/3/2015)

 

It would be as well to contact the DWP and find out what stage your ESA claim is at and whether any steps have been taken to allocate a Work Capability Assessment. Once you have conformation that you are still on the assessment phase, you can advise Ingeus accordingly.

[Mr.P]

As long as you have submitted a JSA28 in reasonable time, you should still get your payment(s) as usual. See: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/jsa28_and_being_sick_whilst_on_j for a copy of the form and notes on the procedure.

[Mr.P]

Agree with sillygirl1 on this. Trying to pick on technicalities to get out of an appointment and avoid a sanction is a sure-fire way to pick one up.

 

Save it for the day when they really screw up and you can drop'em right in it. See this thread: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?416502-Working-Links-Ridiculous-Demands

[Mr.P]

whats the best way to complain about an Ingeus adviser and your bad experiences in general with the company i general?.

 

starting a job next Monday so finally free and to boot its a job i found myself!.

 

i`m signing on for the last time on Friday so shall i have a word with the adviser i see?.

 

You should have been informed of their internal complaints procedure when you first started. If you were not given the documentation (or have binned it), there is nothing to stop you from asking for it again. For an overview, there is the DWP issued guidance on the subject: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/394690/wp-pg-chapter-16.pdf

 

In your shoes, I would say nothing to either Ingeus or the JCP about your new job. When you come to sign off, just state "personal reasons" if asked. However, be prepared for harassment from Ingeus in their attempts to elicit employer details. Feel free to express yourself in what ever manner you deem appropriate when they call

 

Ingeus are going through difficult times at the moment. Only 2 weeks ago a huge restructure had been announced - with many redundancies highlighted.

 

An ideal opportunity to give them some advice on job hunting and living on £73.10 per week.

[Mr.P]

When a business only has a single source of revenue, it is in a vulnerable position. When this source of revenue is dictated by government policy, the business model is subject to the whims of who ever is in power. Now that front line staff are being pressured by management to improve profitability, the clients have to be more proactive in their dealings. My recommendations (as always) are:

 

• Record ALL conversations & meetings.
  
• Challenge every provision, target, or mandated task.
  
• Get everything in writing, including all meeting reports.
  

[Mr.P]

As a taxpayer, I object to my taxes being used to inflict misery and suffering on the poor and/or vulnerable. Those in power who are responsible should be held to account and made to suffer in equal measure.

[Mr.P]

Is it just me or is Ingeus just a waste of time?/money?.

 

No, it is not just you, nor is it limited to Ingeus.

 

The whole Work Programme is a waste of time and money. Whilst a very small minority of claimants might derive some benefit from this scheme, the majority are there for no other reason than to harass.

[Mr.P]

Just curious, does everyone else on here receive text message reminders of their upcoming Ingeus appointments?

[...]

They also contain no method by which you can opt out of receiving such messages.

 

I have never had text messages or emails to remind me of any appointments. But then I don't have a suitable phone, and when asked, always refused to divulge an email address.

 

In your situation, I think it best to write a suitably worded letter to Ingeus insisting that they remove your number from their system. Do not take no for an answer, and if they refuse, ask for a copy of their complaints procedure.