Log Book loans - Another victim - what a surprise!!

[godabon]

Hi Guys, I hope you can help me, I took out a logbook loan in Sept 2009 in the event I needed cashflow, which it later turned out I did not, as I later got the pay I had been waiting for.

 

I tried to cancel the agreement the next day before their cheque had even cleared in my account, accepting that I would probably incur £100 or so in fees. (They had been advised that it may be very short term and they said it was straight forward and not a problem)

 

Upon trying to settle I was advised that if I settled early I would be liable for the entire outstanding amount including the interest that would have been incurred, and that a 'cooling off period' did not apply.

 

I made substantial payments, and upon being a few days late on one payment in Feb 2010, I received a letter stating I had incurred hundreds of pounds in charges. I contacted the LBL office, who informed me that as my very first payment was a couple of days late, every subsequent payment had been late, and therefore incurred charges (this was the first time they had written to me), and upon being late with a payment in Feb they had written to me.

 

LBL stated it had been a system oversight, and that now my account was ahead in terms of payments, I should not give it a second thought, at this time I asked them for a statement, and a breakdown of payments, as I regularly paid off bigger instalments, over and above that required. This never came, I also requested this again by recorded mail, again this never came.

 

I neverthe less continued to make payments until Sept 2009, and obtained the managers mobile number and asked for a settlement figure, he gave me some sky high figure amounting to several thousand pounds, I asked him to break down that figure, as according to even LBL's appauling interest rates it could not be that much.

 

I got a text reply stating I had incurred charges througout the preceding year. I then argued this and requested a breakdown of all payments and charges etc. I received no reply. I have called their office and also left a mobile message requesting a payment breakdown, as I would have had the final payment paid off by now. Again I have received no reply. I made one last monthly payment in October then following LBL's inability to communicate I cancelled my standing order as it was now feeling very much like a loan shark.

 

Sure enough, within a couple of weeks LBL got in touch. First a call on a mobile wanting to know where I and the vehicle was, and then a letter. Saying as I had failed to make payment in accordance with their agreement, and had previously been notified of a default in Feb (which LBL had told me was admin error) that my vehicle would be repossesed without further reference to myself.

 

I am more than happy to meet with any of their bailiffs etc etc, I took the credit due to the position I was in, and even though I tried to be a good customer, they design it so you simply cannot. If you pay the full loan, hundreds in charges and they get your car, then surely that is the best outcome for LBL, and the tactics they use would surely support this.

 

I would appreciate any advice as to how to proceed next. I am happy to appoint a solicitor or take them to court myself. I would like some advice as to any illegalities regarding this ancient law they use. Or how to find out if my bill of sale was correctly registered.

 

I will see this through to conclusion as these people are targeting the most vulnerable in society. If anybody can point me in the right direction in terms of law, contacts or similar case studies then I would be most grateful.

 

I simply want to settle this for the benefit of all concerned, but we all know what the best outcome for LBL is.

 

I am happy to launch court proceeding straight away if somebody could advise via PM or forum.

 

Happy Xmas to all Caggers!!

[Surfer01]

I can't really offer any advice except to say that by law that are required to give you a statemnt at least twice a year and when requested a settlement figure. I suggest that you contact the FOS and advise that LBL are refusing to supply at statement showing all charges and payments and are also refusing to supply a settlement figure.

[godabon]

Thanks.

 

They offered me a settlement figure by phone which they have failed to back up in writing or justify why it is so high.

 

I dare say that I will now have incurred numerous charges etc, but what else was I supposed to do, I needed their attention as I wanted to know where I stood.

 

Is it law that they need to provide 2 statements a year?

 

The point is now they have said they are going to reposses my vehicle, can I even argue the ins and outs of 'no statement' and 'unfair settlement figure' and if so, who to?

 

I understand the fos are reluctant to get involved in these matters and they certainly are in no hurry.

 

Cheers

[Surfer01]

They need a court order before they can repossess the vehicle and this would only come about if they go to court which means that they have to issue you court papers. Once the papers have been received you can request any statements.

What I forgot to state earlier is to send a Subject Access Request (SAR) which costs £10 and they are obliged by law to respond within 40 calender days. This will throw up all correspondence between them and yourself and also the original CCA document and statements. On the request state that as you are disputing the amount payable, they need to suspend all proceedings against you until you have had time to examine all documenst pertaining to the SAR and case.

They have no option but to oblige and this gets any DCA off your back and puts a halt on any legal proceedings.

[godabon]

They need a court order before they can repossess the vehicle and this would only come about if they go to court which means that they have to issue you court papers. Once the papers have been received you can request any statements.

What I forgot to state earlier is to send a Subject Access Request (SAR) which costs £10 and they are obliged by law to respond within 40 calender days. This will throw up all correspondence between them and yourself and also the original CCA document and statements. On the request state that as you are disputing the amount payable, they need to suspend all proceedings against you until you have had time to examine all documenst pertaining to the SAR and case.

They have no option but to oblige and this gets any DCA off your back and puts a halt on any legal proceedings.

 

Hi,

I have just got off the phone to the FOS and they are writing to the head office to inform them that a complaint has been raised, LBL then have 8 weeks to 'investigate'. In the meantime there is no requirement for them to halt any 'standard procedures'. The FOS suggested I request that any action is halted, but stressed it is probable they would not listen.

 

I have also been informed that with a Bill of Sale, if they believe the account is in default then the security (in the case the car) can be repossesed without any further reference to anyone, although it is 'best practice' to have an SIA badged clamper, clamp it for an hour before removal.

 

The FOS suggested I take legal advice to get an order to prevent removal whilst this complaint is investigated, though he stressed he did not know how to go about this.

 

 

Back to square one me thinks . . . .

[Surfer01]

Do the SAR as soon as possible and send recorded mail and also stating you are disputing amount owed. That should knock it on the head for awhile. I doubt if they can repossess without a court order on a Bill of Sale, but I am not that familair with a Bill of Sale. Hopefully someone else on CAG will be able to advise better.

[Ell-enn]

They can repossess on a bill of sale without going to court - but only if the BOS has been registered properly. I believe you can apply to the court to prevent the vehicle being taken and there are some cases on this forum where people have won against LBL - I'll try to find some and in the meantime you could have a read around the LBL forum too.

[godabon]

Thanks Ell Enn,

 

I have had a good read around. I just cant find out on what grounds I would request a judgement in the meantime.

 

I have just written a letter. Please find content below. Any feedback welcome before it is posted.

 

Dear Sirs,

Re: Logbook Loan Agreement

I have spoke to yourselves several times, by telephone, text and also recorded delivery letter.

I had asked for settlement figures on the agreement. I was quoted ridiculous figures which were never put into writing.

I have previously asked for a breakdown of these figures, as I simply cannot calculate the same figures. I explained to you that I did not understand the reasons that you claim I owe so much.

I requested a breakdown of all payments which had been made, a statement of charges, and the settlement figure broke down in writing.( as I was told the large outstanding amount was due to accumulation of charges)

Despite these requests I have still received nothing. I have contacted you in various different ways, and still have no idea what I owe or how, and have withheld subsequent recent payments on this basis.

I have therefore today requested the Financial Ombudsman to investigate this, as per your leaflet. I have also since received my first letter from yourselves which states that the agreement is now cancelled, and you will be repossessing the vehicle given as surety.

I have no doubt you will know the full extent of your powers and any obligations within these agreements. I respectfully request that you withhold such action until an outcome has been decided or agreement reached.

I have no intention of reneging on any lawful agreement, and believe I am correct in saying that we all require this resolving as smoothly as possible, and as previously stated, I have no objection to paying off any agreement, but as a ‘responsible’ lender I am sure you would agree that I should be given access to such information that you allege is causing any increased financial liability to yourselves.

I would like to request a copy of all documentation you hold in relation to this agreement, including the relevant submitted bill of sale agreement. I am happy to submit any fee you may require (up to £10) for you to supply this information in accordance with the freedom of information act.

If you would be so kind as to confirm your intentions, and the most appropriate way to resolve this matter by return then I would be most grateful.

Cheers Guys

[godabon]

Thanks Surfer01, I think that covers the SAR also.

[Surfer01]

Don't forget to enclsoe the £10! BTW it has nothing to do with the freedom of Information Act. Use this template.http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/content.php?552-Data-Protection

[godabon]

Oops, I sent it already. Special D for a before 9 delivery tommorow, sent to directors private address and registered office. Il keep you posted

[Surfer01]

Oops, I sent it already. Special D for a before 9 delivery tommorow, sent to directors private address and registered office. Il keep you posted

As they are under no obligation to send you any information under Freedom of Information Act as it does nto apply to private companies, they will probably bank the £10 into your account.

I would resend the SAR template with another £10 advising that the incorrect statute was quoted in the original letter and that the £10 enclosed is for the SAR. Make sure that you mention that you are disputing the amunt owed. Keep it brief and do not go into detail at this point. One line is sufficient. You need to do that today and to sedn ti again by recorded mail for signature.

That way they cannot squirm out of anything and cannot delay the SAR but have to put it on hold because they have been advised that you are also disputing the amount.

[godabon]

As they are under no obligation to send you any information under Freedom of Information Act as it does nto apply to private companies, they will probably bank the £10 into your account.

I would resend the SAR template with another £10 advising that the incorrect statute was quoted in the original letter and that the £10 enclosed is for the SAR. Make sure that you mention that you are disputing the amunt owed. Keep it brief and do not go into detail at this point. One line is sufficient. You need to do that today and to sedn ti again by recorded mail for signature.

That way they cannot squirm out of anything and cannot delay the SAR but have to put it on hold because they have been advised that you are also disputing the amount.

 

Good advice,

 

That is a good letter template, I have sent that this morning. Thanks for your help. I will keep you posted.

[Hip_Hop]

Hi Godabon,

 

Welcome to the CAG.

 

Please read as much as you can about Log Book Loans and Bills of Sales in the threads that currently exist. They will give you plenty of info and will put you in a much better position to judge your options and your current state of play.

 

In my opinion, whilst I understand that you originally took out a loan which you subsequently decided you didn't need, it appears because you weren't able to get a satisfactory early settlement figure, you continued with the loan? And you state, you have no written proof of an early settlement figure, just the verbal telephone conversation giving a higher than anticipated settlement figure, nothing else?

 

Your CCA that you signed will have offered illustrations of early settlement figures at various stages of the loan term without any penalty charges?

 

Your Bill of Sale should give you details of charges etc too?

 

It might also be helpful to post your B.O.S (once received from LBL) on here with your personal details etc blanked out for others to peruse and to see if it is in order. Although I am sure that it will be, as Log Book Loans no doubt, evolve their Bills of Sales with every challenge? (Just my opinion)

 

You may also find on the forum a helpful thread from Applecart on "Have you signed a Bill Of Sale?" That is worth reading up on.

 

Please note that the average interest with a log book loan is stated on your CCA and normally works out at 300-400% if you take the loan to its full term. So yes, it isn't unusual to have secured a loan at an astronomically high punitive interest rate. They make no bones that they are a Lender of last resort.

 

In any event, You are probably close to the end of your loan term which is why they are deciding to go for seizure of the car. Writing to Directors to tell them that that they are acting unreasonably is like telling a three card trickster down Oxford Street at Xmas that he is wrong to fleece people of their hard earned cash by playing on their greed, and their misguided belief that the game is fair.

 

The difference between the 3 card trickster and LBL is that LBL is able to generally rely on the court to uphold an archaic piece of legal legislation, in the form of a Bill of Sale, to back up its seizure of cars.

 

The 3 card trickster only has a look out for comfort.

 

I have written previously on the strategy that Log Book Loans use and how they play the default card to seize vehicles nearing the end of their loans, in order to get double whammy!

Both as much of the original loan repayments on the original loan, and by way of a second bite of the cherry, get their punitive additional charges, by auctioning the vehicle quickly after seizure!

 

Ostensibly Log Book Loans have a 2 pronged business strategy :-

 

1.They collect interest payments on extortionately high interest short term loans secured via Bills of Sales on vehicles.

They never chance their arm and seize vehicle at the early stages of the agreement, as they want to collect as much loan repayments as possible and, for defaults to happen so that the opportunity to load up penalty charges is triggered.

 

They are generally accommodating in the early stages, offering variations in repayments etc with the borrower unaware at the time that there is a penalty charge(s) that is being added to the account and this is only generally made known to the borrower at the end of the loan.When they are presented with a fait accompli of additional charges! As has happened to you. You are not unique. This is their business plan after all.

 

2.When the loan is close to the end, they use any transgression to issue a default notice/termination notice to seize the vehicle.

 

They then quickly seize and sell it at auction or through their agents Securevehiclestorage (cars sold through ebay), before the unwitting borrower has time to cough let alone get an injunction lodged in court.

 

If the borrower is able to collect their thoughts quickly enough & get an order from the courts for the return of the car, because of defective or unlawful default notices, termination notices etc, the vehicle is returned.

 

If Nine Regions Ltd (T/A Log Book Loans) are found to be the subject of a claim for damages, they quickly re-credit repossession penalty fees, thereby resetting part of the claim back to its original state.

 

Also note, as other threads will refer to the voiding of Bills of Sales and CCA's , that the BOS and CCA remain intact as neither one of them or both, is ever made void under these circumstances, or if either is, no one can find a legal precedent on the CAG forum,or elsewhere, because (in my opinion), Nine Regions Ltd no doubt, would always settle before any judgment is made that would open the floodgates for others to travel through.

 

Please note, for the rest who go down the legal route, legal costs start to mount for the claimant who decides to fight to get compensation for damages and loss/return of vehicles/ penalty charges etc.

 

No doubt, a few on the forum may suggest, if you are unable to prove that default/termination notices were unlawful, that you should rely on getting judgment on the BOS being made void......(Which, as I have asserted here and on various other threads, I have yet to see a judgment or posting that shows such a judgment has been granted previously).

 

So the whole saga becomes a vicious circle with Nine Regions tying up the unsuspecting borrower with a smoke & mirrors/spot the lady trick. Or as I call it the Nine Regions illusion.

 

Whilst many are desperately looking to stop their cars being auctioned once seized, getting the BOS and CCA individually made void is usually left in abeyance. If the car isn't quickly auctioned and the proceeds pocketed by Nine Region, they simply reimburse the repo fees and come after you for the outstanding loan amount and additional penalty charges.

 

Remember, Like all magic tricks, tricks only works if you are being distracted enough to focus on another thing while you are being duped. And having your car seized and potentially auctioned is normally a large enough distraction.

 

My viewpoint on negotiating with the recovery agents is that they are generally independent agents of Log Book Loans who are paid only on results. That being the seizure of the car for selling on.

There are various other threads on the processes that are used to get the borrower to hand over keys etc and that the police don't generally help out as they see the matter as a civil litigation matter outside their remit and that their presence is merely to keep the peace- I suggest you read up the repossession threads further for additional advice and guidance.

 

Log Book Loans add at any opportunity, additional possession fees for unsuccessful/successful seizures. This is how they make substantial additional revenue to their existing loan agreements, and how they generally substantiate their excess penalty charges and their second prong of their business strategy.

 

You will also have been charged for every visit, every text, etc. These just get added to your account and balloon your outstanding amount-Causing more difficulty and the inevitable default situation arising for most other LBL customers.

 

Remember the agents get paid by Log Book Loans for successfully seizing vehicles. Log Book Loan use the Bill of Sale that you signed, giving them the legal instrument that they will use to possess (their property on the triggering of the Bill of Sale), the vehicle

 

LBL can't repossess what they already own by way of a valid Bill of Sale, but they can seize the vehicle if they presented a valid default notice, or if they act quickly enough to distract the unwitting borrower, with a quick seizure and sale at auction.

 

Remember, when you signed the Bill of Sale, (regardless of what others state),you gave them the right to possess the security if you defaulted on the loan and if they properly followed the issuing of a properly issued default notices etc the right to disposal of the car and perfectly within their remit, to sell it too .

The problem is, if they haven't properly issued a correct DN, It is usually a timely process and an additional legal cost, to put right, quickly enough, for an order/injunction through the courts, to be granted prior to the car being sold.

 

There is also the legal costs implication should the order not be granted and the subsequent legal cost exposure that you could face if you were to fail to get an injunction awarded in your favour-Something to bear in mind, that you don't see too many Caggers making reference to.

 

Hence the reason why you should seriously consider hiding your vehicle ASAP.

 

I am sorry to paint such a bleak picture but this is the true essence of their business model, which both you and other unsuspecting Log Book Loans victims need to be made aware of ASAP.

 

Everyone needs to be fully up to date on their modus operandi.

 

Asking them for a settlement figure and breakdown and an explanation from a Director for their high charges etc is all fine but you put your car at risk if you don't hide it immediately. Away from home or work whilst it is under threat due to non payment, otherwise they will find it, clamp it and take it away and auction it off. without battering an eyelid.

 

I have no intention of reneging on any lawful agreement, and believe I am correct in saying that we all require this resolving as smoothly as possible, and as previously stated, I have no objection to paying off any agreement, but as a ‘responsible’ lender I am sure you would agree that I should be given access to such information that you allege is causing any increased financial liability to yourselves.

Appealing to their better nature regarding any outstanding legitimate loan or penalty charge figure that they are entitled to charge you, GODABON-They are not John Lewis or Marks and Spencer's looking at protecting their name. They will take the shirt off your back or (Metaphorically speaking), sell any children you may have in order to get their pound of flesh and more if they can. These are not a group of reasonable middle-class, old school type bank managers of yesteryear looking to get a temporary glitch in your overdraft, back in situ. They are looking to exploit you for the maximum amount they can get away with!

 

Please note that both Nine Regions Ltd t/a Log Book Loans and Log Book Loans Ltd are minded to have their credit license revoked by the OFT and are currently trading under appeal, with the Spring being the time for their appeal to be fully heard.

 

In the interim they are looking to harvest as much in loan interest repayments, the granting of new loans secured on viable vehicles and as many penalty charges as quickly as possible by way of vehicle seizures and the realising of their assets by way of auction, before the rug is pulled from under their feet.

 

Looking for a redeeming, soft landing by way of a nice letter to a Director will no doubt get you short thrift from their in-house legal department.

 

Unless you commit to putting together a valid legal claim against LBL that will force them to seriously consider a settlement that you are prepared to accept, threatening them with legal action will have no impact whatsoever. They have heard it all before. High charges, unfair dealings, unfair interest rates etc Read the treads and see how many successes you find? Focus on getting them to agree a figure to settle and in the interim HIDE your car! Anything else is a distraction and will drain you both financially and mentally.

 

I am not scaremongering for the sake of it, just wanting to give you the heads up and putting you in the know now, not after the event , once they have seized your car. Forewarned is forearmed as they say.

 

There are legal solutions at hand but you have to construct a solid legal case against them, based on a failure of their default notice, contract, claim for damages that is economically not worth their defending due to legal costs on their side. Most other claims based on high interests etc will probably fail as they have standard legal responses to most.

Dealing with Log Book Loans is not a level playing field, whether you write to their Directors, telling them that you don't agree with their business model or not.

 

Sorry for the lengthy response but I want to add clarity to how they operate, so hope it is informative?

 

The above is given with the usual caveats etc that I am just giving my personal opinion. But i would rather give you a view of the real world of dealing with Log Book Loans, as I have direct experience as outlined previously in the CAG forum and have the Tee Shirt to prove it.

Edited December 31, 2010 by Hip_Hop
clarity

[godabon]

Hip_Hop

 

Thanks for the reply. I genuinely appreciate your frank, honest advice, and to be perfectly honest with you, I expected the kind of response that you describe. Nevertheless, I entered into the agreement as I had very little choice to start with, and by putting my position in writing eases my conscience somewhat, in the event it is simply an error.

 

If as I am expecting, it turns out that they are trying to effectively 'extort'every penny they can out of me, then I will not rest until I personally have taken them through every legal and financial channel available. I am not in the same position I was in when I took out the agreement, hence the reason I have been trying to get a settlement figure. You rightly point out there was example settlements given, and I based my figures on these. LBL on the other hand decided to put fifty percent on again.

 

I dont agree with what they do, but I did not enter into it blinkered. Nevertheless, if they are putting me in such a position that I am being illegally charged in such a way that it is not possible to work within the terms of the agreement, then I wont simply ignore it.

 

Whether they take my vehicle or not is now almost immaterial, I suspect as we all do that this runs a lot deeper, and I will be taking sufficient action to ensure other people do not suffer in the same way. I can afford to take the required action, and I am not ashamed of needing their funds in the first place, and this is the two things they rely on when taking advantage of the vulnerable.

 

As mentioned I am pursuing it privately, over and above any action that others may be taking and I would be happy to give you details over PM. Whilst I appreciate the value of the public forum, unfortunately I cannot publicly divulge certain info.

 

 

Cheers