Being prosecuted for using my husband's annual season ticket

[Old-CodJA]

Am i correct in thinking one can only be prosecuted if the ticket inspector 'cautions' you and reads you your rites etc?

 

No, that is not correct.

[Wriggler7]

There needs to be some indication at some point in the process that indicates that a prosecution in Court will happen, but the first 'discussion' with a member of railway staff can be as basic as 'have you got a ticket', 'no', 'what is your name and address'.

 

A 'caution', or lack of one, only damages the admissability of the questions and answers that are relevant to proving the offence. And only if you are spoken to by a person who's main job is the investigation of offences. Any employee of the railway is entitled to ask for a ticket, any 'officer' of the railway is entitled to take your details.

 

An officer of the railway has been tested, and shown to include 'leading railmen'. A quick check on the old BR Grade Relativity charts will show that fundamentally, all staff employed by train operators are equal to or senior than an old 'leading railman'.

[Old-CodJA]

All of the foregoing is of course correct and to add to it, let me explain the process with a Penalty Fare Notice (PFN), or Unpaid Fare Notice (UPFN) and the basic Travel Irregularity Report (TIR).

 

In none of these cases will the traveller have been 'cautioned', but it is still possible for the alleged offender to be prosecuted by the Rail Company if they fail to pay.

 

The reporting member of staff in the case of a UFN or Authorised Person in the case of a PFN need only make out a statement confirming the details of the issue of that notice and the allegation recorded on it to provide an evidential link, which will allow the issue of a Summons. The original notice, which is handed to the traveller, will state on it the nature of the alleged transgression and will include the written warning 'may lead to prosecution'.

 

The same applies in the case of a TIR provided the original report identifies the offence that is being alleged and the fact that the traveller is being reported for that offence and has been told that it may lead to prosecution.

 

The caution is necessary as soon as a trained Inspector is satisfied that an offence is evident and wishes to question the person suspected of that offence in accordance with PACE (1984).

 

It is not necessary to caution someone to issue a PFN or UFN, nor is it necessary in order for rail staff to make out a TIR.

 

.

[whizzbang]

I was stopped by an inspector and he took my name and address, but made no mention of legal proceedings and i signed no statement/his notes he made. I have then been sent a threatening letter by the rail company highlighting their intention to prosecute and asking me for a signed statement as to what happened. Where do I stand on this? Much rather just have a penalty notice!

[Wriggler7]

Wouldn't we all. But, the 'choice' rests with the prosecuting authority.

[Wriggler7]

To attempt to avoid Court, reply, ask if you may be allowed to pay reasonable costs.

[whizzbang]

Thanks. Thats what I've done, but I'm interested in the legal logistics.. Is the letter they send just a 'bullying/aggresive' letter to get you worried and to hold your hands up or can they prosecute without any evidence other than the inspectors scribbles?

[SRPO]

Thanks. Thats what I've done, but I'm interested in the legal logistics.. Is the letter they send just a 'bullying/aggresive' letter to get you worried and to hold your hands up or can they prosecute without any evidence other than the inspectors scribbles?

 

The letters are sent to give you an opportunity to supply any reasons why they should'nt prosecute you.

They are not a legal requirement & yes they can prosecute purely on the evidence of the officer.

[whizzbang]

Thanks for that. Its just that some people on here mention getting cautioned, and I'm just interested in whether this was neccesary for the TOCs to prosecute.

[SRPO]

Thanks for that. Its just that some people on here mention getting cautioned, and I'm just interested in whether this was neccesary for the TOCs to prosecute.

No, although it is good practice to interview under caution. The charge(s) that could be laid would be restricted without questioning..

[PIXIE1239]

Hi,

 

thanks for your post it is quite helpful.

 

I had a similiar experience recently. I was going to a friends and thought i would use my sisters ticket as i was running late and did not have enough time to get a ticket. When i attempted to go through the turnstile one of the guys who worked there stopped me and asked where my photocard was-i should have told the truth but said it was at home and i did not have id with me. he handed it to a woman behind the glass who said i would have to get my photocard id and bring it back to get the ticket back. I politely asked for it back and that i would pay over the counter for another ticket as i did not have time, and she told me no (which apparently legally they are supposed to do) didnt take any details from me at all.

To which i got my sister to come down with her id to get it back as it was not her fault and they still would not give her. Now they have told her that she has to go to a meeting and that she has to wait for the station to write a letter of 'evidence' of what happened even though she did nothing wrong so she has told them i took it without permission and they are now saying it is 'a matter for the police' as it is theft! I have said i will pay the fine and take the punishment for it, so she is telling them in her meeting it was taken without permission but does this mean i will get a criminal conviction? And how long will it be before she gets her pass back?

 

I feel awful but now am really worried for myself too- but what frustrates me more is that whilst i was standing there a black guy got off the train and was clambering to crawl over this tall wall next to the turnstiles, and he just shouted 'stop don't' and let him go-yet was rude and nasty to me!

 

Can someone give me some advice? i know i am in the wrong and shouldn't have tried to use it, but i didn't and yet it is all going forward-i have never heard anything like it in my life!

[PIXIE1239]

Oh and no details or anything were taken from me or my sister just her name and her number!

[Wriggler7]

Most railway staff are not 'trained detectives', they sell tickets, and check them, but they are not there to interview people who have been found with 'wrong' tickets. They are allowed to withdraw tickets, but will send them to the 'revenue protection' department, who are trained to various levels to investigate 'ticket irregularities'. It sounds like that is what is going on, and your sister is probably going to be questioned by a 'ticket fraud' officer.

 

It is too early to say what will happen, that will be decided, bit at a time, by the railway, once they have checked to see if you or your sister have a history of getting penalty fares, or misusing season tickets.

[PIXIE1239]

thanks for the advice wriggler.....

 

I am happy to pay a fine-i have never done anything bad in my life or anything like this-do you think maybe i may just get a caution and a fine-or can i get a criminal record?

[Wriggler7]

At this stage, it is hard to say what will happen. You could end up being prosecuted, and so too could your sister, depending on what the 'evidence' shows.

 

For now, the only thing to do is wait and see. You haven't told us how old you are, that does make a difference.

 

My local railway prosecutes a lot of adults but takes part in schemes to 'divert' youths from Court. They do prosecute a dozen or so youths each year, but about 1,000 adults.

 

They will always prosecute cases where the passenger was abusive, or where there is a long history of fare evasion. They will consider settling most cases 'out of Court'.

[PIXIE1239]

I am 24, my sister is older.

 

No i was not abusive, if anything the guy was rude-but then again they won't believe that will they-the woman behind the counter didnt want to take it off me and wanted to give it back to me sister but the guy who lets people through the barrier was telling her 'no' even though my sister was getting upset as isn't her fault...

 

they have contacted her and she has to go and fill out paperwork tonight and we have to attend an interview together-i don't know what this means??

 

i said i will take full responsibility for it as she had nothing to do with it-just feel awful....

[Wriggler7]

OK, so 'adult's.

 

We read a lot of 'suggestions' that staff were rude. As an impartial observer, I always suggest that the difference between 'rudeness' and 'assertiveness' is too close to call, and a question of perception. Unless he used foul language, or was actually 'degrading' you, I suspect that pragmatically, you should accept that he was just doing his job, and leave it at that. In any event, it is 'your' behaviour with your sister's ticket that is at issue.

 

It sounds like she has been asked to attend to complete an application for a duplicate, and that the pair of you will be spoken to when the 'investigator' has had the chance to 'look at the paperwork'.

[SRPO]

People usually complain when they get caught, its human nature for some.

[PIXIE1239]

People usually complain when they get caught, its human nature for some.

 

I thought this was a forum for giving advice not criticising-people make mistakes, don't they?!?

[SRPO]

I thought this was a forum for giving advice not criticising-people make mistakes, don't they?!?

 

Its not exclusively for those that want their hands held & noses wiped, its open to anyone to express an opinion.....thats the price you pay when you post on the internet.

[Old-CodJA]

Hi,

 

thanks for your post it is quite helpful.

 

I had a similiar experience recently. I was going to a friends and thought i would use my sisters ticket as i was running late and did not have enough time to get a ticket. When i attempted to go through the turnstile one of the guys who worked there stopped me and asked where my photocard was-i should have told the truth but said it was at home and i did not have id with me. he handed it to a woman behind the glass who said i would have to get my photocard id and bring it back to get the ticket back. I politely asked for it back and that i would pay over the counter for another ticket as i did not have time, and she told me no (which apparently legally they are supposed to do) didnt take any details from me at all.

To which i got my sister to come down with her id to get it back as it was not her fault and they still would not give her. Now they have told her that she has to go to a meeting and that she has to wait for the station to write a letter of 'evidence' of what happened even though she did nothing wrong so she has told them i took it without permission and they are now saying it is 'a matter for the police' as it is theft! I have said i will pay the fine and take the punishment for it, so she is telling them in her meeting it was taken without permission but does this mean i will get a criminal conviction? And how long will it be before she gets her pass back?

 

I feel awful but now am really worried for myself too- but what frustrates me more is that whilst i was standing there a black guy got off the train and was clambering to crawl over this tall wall next to the turnstiles, and he just shouted 'stop don't' and let him go-yet was rude and nasty to me!

 

Can someone give me some advice? i know i am in the wrong and shouldn't have tried to use it, but i didn't and yet it is all going forward-i have never heard anything like it in my life!

 

 

As I understand it the forum isn't for people simply to condone others actions when they are in breach of the rules either.

 

What you see as a 'mistake' is seen by the Rail Company as an 'offence'. This may be confirmed by referring to the rules in force.

 

To return to your original post for a moment, you open by saying "I was going to a friends and thought i would use my sisters ticket..." That suggests that you thought about it and decided to do it. Using someone else's season ticket so as not to pay a fare is an offence that, if detected, the Rail Company may choose to prosecute.

 

The booking clerk was right to retain the season ticket because there was evidence of an attempted mis-use. Section 5 of The Regulation of Railways Act (1889) opens by stating words to the effect that 'If any person travels, or attempts to travel without having previously paid their fare and with intent to avoid payment thereof...'

 

Clearly and by your own admission, you attempted to use your sister's ticket to make a journey without buying your own ticket, but were caught and prevented from doing so.

 

One thing isn't clear unless I've missed it, did you actually pay for a ticket and make the journey?

 

Something that will not help you is your reference to the 'black man clambering over a wall'. Galling as it may seem, but from what you have told us the member of staff concerned was already dealing with you and cannot be expected to deal with two incidents at once. I suppose that shouting 'stop' may have been an attempt to get someone else's attention to deal with that man.

 

If your sister says that you took the ticket without her knowledge then she is saying that any offence that may have been commited was entirely your doing and had nothing to do with her.

 

Wait and see what the outcome of the PACE interview with your sister is.

Edited February 1, 2011 by Old-CodJA

[RPI]

Which TOC is it?

[Wriggler7]

I am not sure that we need to know which train operator it is (TOC) as you then run a chance of revealing who you are to any one reading the thread.

 

It has been my observation that this type of matter will get a thorough 'looking at' before any further interview, and that all of the staff who will deal with it will be good at working out the salient facts.

 

All of the companies that I know anything about have 'run of the mill' ticket examiners, and also more specialised 'investigative' inspectors who will have checked season ticket histories and for any previous misdemeanours.

[Wriggler7]

I would recommend answering any questions honestly, they will probably have an 'idea' of what went on from issues such as 'do you and your sister share a house?' which will tend to suggest an answer to whether your sister did or did not know that you had her ticket.

 

For now, I can only suggest 'patience'.

[cjmcjm]

Hi there

 

I just wondered what the outcome was for you - i have found myself in a very similar position and would like to know what could be happening as I am very worried indeed..