HSBC: Help Desperatley Needed! *** Won ***

[Mozz1]

Hi folks. My girlfriend has been having a torrid, awful time with HSBC of late and she desperately needs some guidance.

 

She had a longstanding overdraft of £1500. It went on for many years, at least 5 years. She made mininmal payments and the bank left her alone. Then, in April, after a few months when she didn't pay them, she received letters demanding that the overdraft be brought back within its limit.

 

But in march she had lost her job and couldn't pay them 'owt.

 

So she wrote a letter to her branch offering a repayment plan in April. Ignored by the bank.

 

So she wrote a further letter to an HSBC service centre in May, again offering repayment plan. Also ignored by the bank.

 

Next thing she received a Final Demand letter. They want repayment in full and will pass it on to a DCA. CRAs informed by HSBC etc.

 

She then telephoned the bank and they verbally agreed a repayment plan. A couple of days later she had recourse to telephone the bank and someone else told her the account was closed, that because it was "defaulted" she could not negotiate a payment plan with HSBC, that they would take her to court and wanted the money in full within 28 days.

 

She then complained and received a written response to the effect that the bank was in error agreeing a proposal to sort things out after the Final Demand Letter had been served and there was nothign that they can do about it. A DCA will be instructed. pay up in full. Your account is closed.

 

My questions: what can we do about this? How do we complain? On what grounds and who to?

Edited July 9, 2010 by Mozz1

[Mozz1]

Ok, I'll give it a go. Nowt from anyone at the monent on either this or my Barclays thread, which is very disappointing.

[Mozz1]

Hi peeps, hoping for some pointers on this one.

 

My good lady wrote a combined dispute letter, SAR and CCA request to HSBC. The dispute relates to their Final Demand letter as they did not reply to her hardship letters. They have suspended her account.

 

In the combined dispute, SAR and CCA request letter she made a monthly repayment proposal to HSBC, which is all she has wanted to do from the get go (the bank, having issued the Final Demand have refused to negotiate).

 

Ok, so today she got a letter from a DCA demanding proposals for repayment. The DCA is called Metropolitan.

 

Metropolitan's letter states:

 

"Thank you for your letter requesting a copy agreement under CCA regulations [only partly true, she also asked for a copy of the Consumer Retail Agreement in the alternative]

 

"Pls find enclosed copy statements [these only go back 12 months; she has had this overdraft since 1999/2000 and the account since the late 1980s]

 

"S.78 CCA 1974 does not apply to current accounts. The current account is not a regulated agreement because it provides no credit. The overdraft agreement provides the credit and this sits seperatly from the account agreement [no overdraft agreement provided]

 

"Credit agreements normally have to comply with Part V of the CCA 1974. Part V covers the form and content of agreements, signing of agreements and duty to supply copies of unexecuted and executed agreements. However current account overdrafts are given a specific exemption from all Part V formality requirements by s 74(1)(b) of the CCA 1974.

 

"This exemption applies only when the OFT grant a Determination under s74(3) and this was given for overdrafts on 21 December 1989.

 

"The consequence of this is that there is no executed agreement for the purposes of the CCA 1974 and so s78 (right to demand a copy of executed agreement) does not apply.

 

"We now require you to submit your proposals for repayment of the remanining balance within 14 days.

 

"Metroplitan Collection Serrvices"

Edited July 9, 2010 by Mozz1

[Mozz1]

HSBC closed her account.

 

And DCAs hounding.

 

Anyone know the banking code?

Edited July 10, 2010 by Mozz1

[Mozz1]

Hello out there. Things are getting a bit tough now with HSBC and some guidance would be helpful, if only to say we aint got a hope, whatever.

 

HSBC closed her account behind her back without so much as a whistle and during a complaint and when the account was in dispute (the dispute letter went same day they rushed thru the account closure) and they are saying the complaint isn't valid because of the Default Letter.

 

Insofar as SAR is concerned, they are refusing to give her information and have instead sent a Data Protection Act form for her to fill in and sign and date and return to them before they will divulge any info. Is this correct? Should she fill it in? Does she have to?

 

Their wording "Your o/d is not regulated by the CCA 1974. As such to comply with credit policy we provide a facility letter. We have enclosed a copy of the most recent overdraft facility letter."

 

Therefeore they say they do not have to show her a copy of any original agreements for the account and overdraft; instead they send a computer print out of the most recent ToB and the Default letter.

 

They also referred to a DCA who is hounding.

 

What to do?

 

They have offered a £200 reduction on the o/d repayment but demand we contact the DCA for repayment directions rather than direct to them because they closed the account (like I say, while a complaint was in process and despite 2 hardship letters being sent to them by her BEFORE the Default Letter!).

 

They want her to sign a form agreeing to accept the £200 reduction "in full and final settlement of your complaint."

 

PLEASE can anyone assist?

[Mozz1]

She has written to the DCA telling them the account is in dispute and if they contact she'll go to the Police. She has also reported the DCA to Consumer Direct. If they write again she will respond telling them to go back to the OC.

 

When she found out they had closed the account she sent a letter to the FOS at the same time as writing to the bank (in whic she told HSBC them all about the case of Coutts and Gabriel (above)).

 

The computer screen copy of the facility letter is pretty dreadful. I summarise its points (it is undated and some plod was working on this on Sunday at HSBC!)

 

1. Confirms variable rate o/d on terms set out as attached

2. Confirms limit

3. Confirms term and review for Nov 10

4. Confirms any overdrawn balance interest as current account overdraft rate

5. States current annual rate 18.29% and current effective rate 19.9%

6. 14 days cancellation

Then it goes into T&Cs as follows:

1. "Your facility like all o/d facilities is an on-demand form of borrowing. This means we can at any time even before the review date withdraw your facility and or write demanding immediate payment of the o/d balance together wit accrued interest, fees and charges"

2 - 5 interest blurb

6. Our personal banking t&c apply to your account. If you do not have a copy pls ask us for one

7 - 12 fees, charges, current annual rate defined, jurisdiction blah de blah

 

Point 1 is claerly salient but are they compliant?

[Mozz1]

She has reported to FOS and the Lending Srandards Board (LSB). LSB don't do individual complaints but should look at the breaches of the lending code. What worries her most is that HSBC will damage her credit score and run roughshod over the law. At the end of the day she'll see the b*ggers in court if she has to she is so angry and upset. I've gotta lot of this sort of stuff going on in my life but she hasn't, so I'm helping her sort it out.

 

We are graetful to you and car403 for your kind support. as it is a lonely journey is this...

 

I confirm she has put all of car2403's advice to HSBC but the bank seem hell bent on skirting the issues and misinterpreting what she is saying. Like you say, its a game. So, the sooner Messrs DG Solicitors start writng the better and we'll see 'em in court.

[Mozz1]

This is just a bad copy of an updated overdraft facility letter tho isnt it... they havent sent a copy of the first/original letter offering you an overdraft I'm guessing. This I would have thought is the requred letter by the determination.

 

S.

 

Correct its definitely a bad (computerised print out ledger-looking thingy) of an updated o/d facility. They have not - and will not - send an original copy. We don't know if this is the required letter for the Determination; perhaps they can get away with undated, updated computer facsimiles?

 

Also they are refusing her SAR request. They are demanding she sign and fill in a form issued by "UK DPC" (?). The form does make reference to the £10 fee though (asks for it on delivery but she already paid them the postal order earlier). Should this form be completed?

[Mozz1]

Hi. We have sent some lengthy detailed letters to the blighters now and will now sit back and refer them to these 'til we get some answers from them.

 

What is the FOS like? Are they helpful, woeful or somewhere inbetween?

[Mozz1]

great....

[Mozz1]

Hello all. HSBC have written back saying that her o/d is not covered by the CC 1974 but otherwise they are referring to their legal department.

 

She wrote back to them saying that they are WRONG because o/ds ARE covered by the CCA 1974 UNLESS the bank has a Part V exemption. To be valid, the Determination needs to have been compied with, which we understand means that HSBC should have sent her a letter withion 30 days of the o/d. Now, the o/d is at least 10 years old! Unless HSBC can evidence this letter then I think they are screwed and the CCA 1974 applies to o/ds arunning credit agreements. No DN, no termination notice, no CCA agreement!

 

Ok, that's ref challenging the o/d bit. On the closure of the account issue, she sent them a cheque payable to HERSELF for the balance plus extra and a paying in slip and they cashed it! She had written saying that their acceptance of the money was acceptance of her requirement that the account be reinstated.

 

They have of course ignored that point and have not acknowledged the cheque.

 

I think the enxt steps will be to claim the sum back as the o/d is invalid as the Determination doesn't apply (assuming that to eb the case when we get the SAR info from them) and also expenses and costs for inconvenience.

 

Not sure where this is headed but Lending Standards and FOS have been contacted, which she did when she discovered the account had been closed while it was still in dispute.

[Mozz1]

Unless, of course, you take Court action for a declaration of unenforceability

 

That would be cool.

 

How does she go about getting a declaration of unenforceaility?

 

If she loses, does she have to pay their costs?

[Mozz1]

and can she go to court while the fos are investigating?

[Mozz1]

Thanks Car and TDS. She can threaten the bank with a dec of enforceability order though. Might do that. If the bank continue to play silly beggars then she will take this all the way to the Supreme Court if necessary. Her legal costs will be zilch. theirs of course will be very real and that's the problem. The only concern is that the small claims court judge gets out of depth and allocates to another track, which s/he will because this CCA 1974 / Determination stuff is pretty darn complicated. Still, my GF needs the SRA info before any decision is taken.

 

Still awaiting to hear from bank as to whether they are reactivtaing the account. Ten bucks and my left nut says they won't.

[Mozz1]

PB thanks, that is interesting.

 

She has had a similar response in writing from no less than the Chief Exec of the LSB, effectively saying they won't investigate individual complaints but will look into it from behind the scenes. Our reckoning is that this is all helpful.

 

The OFT determination will apply, as we know, unless the bank failed to send the facility letter within 30 days of the od being taken out. Now, this is all to do with the od being legit.

 

Her other cause is the reactivation of her bank account as she contends that the Final Demand letter shsould not have been sent and, further, that they were in breach of the Lending Code in closing an account in dispute.

 

The od was a very long time ago now and thus far all she's had off the bank is a rubbish looking computer print out of the most recent facility letter that was sent to her.

 

Will look up your thread good sir.

[Mozz1]

Not a whisper from the bank yet. The FOS also haven't written to acknowledge the dispute. Oddly enough the GF received an email from the information commissioners office stating that they would be interested to hear if the SAR has not been received within the 40 day limit. She never contacted the ICO so someone else has.

[Mozz1]

yes, we are monitoring the time line!

[Mozz1]

It may be that the ICO does random checks on Data Protection requests to the various bodies .......... and your GF came up as one of those ......but I'd say it's worth responding to .......

 

either that or the LSB and ICO are hooked up in some way?

 

anyway, thus far all we have from the HSBC itslef is a letter which states, verbatim, that the CCA 1974 does not apply to overdrafts per se. That is plain wrong. Only metro have said that part V exemption applies when they sent their threat-o-gram to her...not HSBC.

 

And its all quiet on the Western Front at the moment. I should imagine a combination of my GF's letters, the LSB, the ICO and the FOS are keeping the bank busy.

[Mozz1]

Hi all. The latest letter is attached from the Hongkong Shanghai ****ing Corporation.

 

They have reinstated the account.

 

They are offering some money "as a gesture of goodwill" provided the GF signs away her complaint.

 

They deny everything; valid final demand; fully industry compliant; overdraft not covered by CCA.

 

Also no sign of the SAR.

 

They also make no reference to my GF's two hardship letters that preceded their final demand letter (we contend this was in contravention of the lending code and invalidates the final demand that came after these; but is this correct?).

 

However, can anything more be achieved? The Foz have returned all of her letters and with a bulk bog standard complaint form to fill in instead.

 

Any advice?

ckt24ajqscn00092.pdf

ckt24ajqscn00101.pdf

ckt24ajqscn00110.pdf

ckt24ajqscn00083.pdf

[Mozz1]

Anyone?

[Mozz1]

cheers for the opinion Shadow. The thing that rankles with us is that she has to sign away her complaint and within 10 days, which seems like blackmail to us.

[Mozz1]

None of you think the bank are on the back foot then?

Or is it just that the Foz are woeful?

[Mozz1]

and if you did push it, what would you be pushing for?

Yes we want and need the money but at the same time the bank have crapped all over us and we would like the money and the right to continue this complaint in some form. for example, they are denying that their final demand is invalid but have agreed to reinstate the account and remove the DN. also the bank haven't addressed whether the od was exempt (they SAY it was bit haven't proved it).

Have just checked and they have BTW put a default on her credit report. the account was opended in 1988 apparently - that's the first bit of info we have received! courtesy of experian. No SAR and no od agreement received yet.

[Mozz1]

Well i would make sure that they adhered to there promise regarding your credit report.

 

Yes, that is more important than their £300.

 

THe OD is exempt from part V of the act that is not i think in disute,what is ,is whether they should have sent you an initial notice of terms of the agreement.

 

I didn't think it was exempt unless they applied for the Determination? But yes, they will have done this but 6 bucks and my left nut says they never sent an agreement or can produce one now

 

They will say that the information is available on there web site or in some pamphlet, you may say that is insufficiant, iwould agree this

 

But was it when the od was taken out? before the web was widely used, late '90s we reckon. also don't they have to produce copies of the leaflets and evidence they were widely available?

 

as i say has not been tested. Risky to say the least especially at the moment.

 

The risk being costs in suing them?

Can the Foz investigate if they are compliant with the determination?

 

Peter

[Mozz1]

I think I'll be on 5000 posts by the time this 'un has run its course

Thanks for your advice guys.

On balance, I think we (I say we but I'm only advising here!) will tell 'em to stick their £300 and continue the complaint (a) to make sure the DN is removed; (b) to get some sort of determination from the Foz that the account was in dispute when the bank called in Metro and closed the account; and © to see if we can get anywhere on the exemption must be notified in writing argument. can't see us taking the bleeders to court because if we lose we pay their costs but if there's anyone out there willing to finance a challenge to these so-called exempt ods and who wants to make HSBC squirm please send me a PM :)