Full & Final Settlement offer advice on how to clear asap

[Bigdebtor]

Horsemad1

 

Some good advice above from DX with which I totally agree. I hope The Mould will not just pm you - but also share his advice with other caggers through public posts - as that is the only way we can all learn - plus it provides a check and balance that the advice is sound.

 

My own experience was that i got unsolicited offers of 35% F&F from MBNA on the two MBNA cards and two Alliance & Leicester cards I had - by that time also owned by MBNA. I also got an unsolicited offer of 40% on one Barclaycard but only 75% on the 2nd - which I have not yet taken and am still going through the process of checking cca, reclaiming unfair charges etc. All of this was long before I discovered CAG and I suspect these 5 cards had no valid cca available - but I didn't know that at the time. Although I settled about £45k of debt for about £15.5k, I could probably have saved this £15.5k too if I had known then what I know now!

 

My (non expert) advice is:

 

1. Do an awful lot of reading of relevant threads.

2. Check for PPI mis-selling.

3. Check if you have any dodgy Default Notices (see related threads on this).

4. Calculate your unfair charges and related contractual interest compounded monthly - back to the very first unfair charge even if more than 6 years ago - to reduce the balance (or wipe it out?) before starting to negotiate F&F.

5. Talk to CCCS or another (free) debt charity if necessary to get them to negotiate frozen interest and affordable monthly payments with all creditors. Remember their objective is to get you to repay what you can afford - not to help you get any debt written off.

6. If you can prove hardship use FOS to try to get an early repayment of unfair bank overdraft charges - but don't hold your breath!

7. Getting a 75% F&F is usually pretty easy - getting more needs persistence and time - and usally means they are worried about losing out totally - either due to a non-enforceable cca - or the debtor's shaky financial position.

8. Basically you have to accept your credit rating will be stuffed in any case - and is probably stuffed already either through missing minimum monthly payments, being on a payment plan or agreeing a short settlement. They are very unlikely to fix it when you get a short settlement agreed.

9. The last thing is not actually too bad a thing (as long as you don't want to borrow any more for mortgages, car loans etc.) as it shows other creditors that you have agreed other short F&F's - AND have got together the funds to settle them - so they should fall into line or risk getting nothing.

10. There is no winning formula regarding getting them to agree to low short settlements I'm afraid - other than to wear them down over time, get the balance as low as possible by reclaiming unfair charges and interest, and finally spook them by carefully checking they have not slipped up in any of their paperwork, CCA, DN, TN etc. It seems to be easier to get a low F&F when a DCA is involved - but MBNA and Barclaycard did mine themeselves very (too?) quickly and easily. I suspect the fact Barclaycard are not playing ball with the 2nd card balance suggests they feel they are on stronger ground with this cca?

 

Best of luck!

 

BD

Edited May 7, 2010 by Bigdebtor
typos

[Bigdebtor]

I think if you get CCCS help then Halifax and Nationwide should heed their suggestions regarding affordable payments. If they don't then I would ask FOS to tell them to do so. It might/should work? Remember the Scottish Sheriff Court case against HBOS is due next month - so bank charges may be refundable after that expected victory for us.

 

If your CCA's are flawed then you shouldn't need to pay ANY short settlement - just put te account in dispute and see IF they sue YOU (very unlikely in these cases in my opinion as the last thing they want is CERTAINTY that the debt is UNENFORCEABLE).

 

Good luck!

 

BD

[Bigdebtor]

In some ways our Other Halves are the OC and DCA's best allies! - and they know this and play on it with nuisance phone calls and letters full of empty threats. I have the same problem with my wife but my (grown up) kids are a bit more savvy and have reassured my wife that my tactics are the best way forward.

 

You really just need to give your hubby as much reassurance as possible that your tactics are correct. The Mould said you should put some cash away and this is good advice - provided it is put into a totally seperate bank or building society account. You can then use this if necessary if there is a chance of losing a court case.

 

Otherwise I would play real hard ball since if your cca's are unenforceable it will be a very foolish OC or DCA who tries to do so in court. They will bluff and bluster - but rarely follow through. You just need to keep the faith and get your hubby to understand that the two of you are not alone and there are many success stories to reassure him.

 

BD

[Bigdebtor]

I agree with DX. Get th ebalances down as much as possible by removing PPI, unfair charges and associated interest - THEN negotiate short settlements on the much reduced balances. Don't start with F&F when there are still other things to come off first.

 

BD

[Bigdebtor]

If the interest rate has been fixed since day 1 then that is in the rate you reclaim - compounded as they do - either monthly (as in credit cards) or otherwsie as in the specific terms of the loan. If the rate varies (like most credit card rates) you should charge the same rate shown on each monthly statement for that specific month.

 

With Payday loans they seem to charge 30% PER MONTH - debtors have to repay £130 at the end of the month for every £100 borrowed earlier that month - so "for total fairness" you should compound it at that same rate - and you will be amazed at the apr it produces - over 2300% apr!

 

That means that if Payday Loans owed you £100 in respect of unfair charges in January 2009 then by the end of January 2010 they would actually then owe you over £2300 (and this would have grown to over £6500 owed to you by end of May 2010!)

 

Avoid all sharks like Payday Loans like the plague - if you're in debt the last thing you need is an effective 30% pay cut coupled with a loan at over 2300% apr!

[Bigdebtor]

DON't give in to Nationwide's demands! You WILL eventually get your charges and interest refunded once Justice eventually prevails (see Glasgow Sheriff Court next month!).

 

BD

[Bigdebtor]

You should always say as little as possible to avoid giving too much ammo to the other side. How about just saying :

 

I am aware of the procedures in defending a claim in the county court and understand that a Charging Order may only be granted after judgement if we were to default on the terms of the judgement. Our Financial situation means that I should be able to prove to a Judge that what we are offering is reasonable and that we are not favouring one creditor over another. By refusing to accept our offer you are being unreasonable and trying to force us to pay proportionately more to you than to our other Creditors.

 

Given that a large percentage of this balance is made up of fees and associated interest, if you insist on taking us to Court, I would be prepared to reclaim such amounts through the Court.

 

or if you want to add more continue with the rest:

 

Not only would this be lengthy, but the offer of assistance from my Father to clear this debt would be withdrawn as it was made on the clear understanding that it would satisfy this debt in full and that we would be released from any further liability, without the need for Court action.

 

Furthermore, there will be no further option to pay sizeable installments after 30th July as you intimated in your letter, as once I return to work following my maternity leave, my childcare costs will increase dramatically due to having to pay for 2 children under school age in Fulltime Nursery, I will be lucky to meet my basic household expenditure, let alone a non priority debt such as yours. Therfore I would say it is in both our interest to find a mutually acceptable agreement out of Court"

 

I'm not sure the second part adds anything to the strength of your case - but up to you oif you want to add it as well.

 

Good luck!

 

BD

[Bigdebtor]

Remember the objective of both CCCS and National Debtline etc. is to get you to pay what you can afford - and get the debts repaid - NOT to help you reduce what you need to pay through reclaiming charges and reducing/writing off any of your debts through (totally justifiably) exploiting legal loop holes. He is a classic example of why the banks get away with their current tactics. He needs to read these threads and discover just what a load of sharks they all are.

 

Your CRA credit ratings will probably be shot already and will remain so for 6 years after you finally settle up - even if you were to repay everything in full right now - so what's the point in spending more money you can ill afford? .

 

Why let these sods win? How many thousands have you paid them in interest and charges over the years?

 

Do (and pay) as little as possible until after the Glasgow Sheriff Court case next month.

 

BD

[Bigdebtor]

Yes - see Michael Browne's thread on "Sheriff puts Bank of Scotland to proof on charges" - a thrilling read!

 

Bd

[Bigdebtor]

BIG improvement! good old OH!

[Bigdebtor]

Thanks Mould. My Oh is panicking now that we may have scuppered our chances of settling this out of court by following the Templated letters as advised by National Debtline... Will be online tommorrow also, will await your reply. Thank you for your help.

 

Horsemad1

 

Basically until you are all sat down in court it is NEVER too late to settle out of court - so tell OH to stop panicking. My experience is they will always listen to an offer - even at the eleventh hour - especially if they know you are willing to fight on and have good ammo against them.

 

It looks like The Mould is on top of things and being very helpful to you via pm. However since there will undoubtedly be loads of other people who can benefit from the same advice and use the same weapons can I ask you both to consider posting as much as you can on this thread, using pm's only where absolutely necessary?

 

BD

[Bigdebtor]

Depends on what the message said?

[Bigdebtor]

First rejection letter received - although they have kept cheque. My letter clearly stated that to be banked only if agreeing to my terms and chque was to be returned if not???

 

I think Case Law is much stronger if the cheque was paid by a third party (even mum, dad, brother, sister, son, daughter) than from you yourself. In that case the very act of banking it seems to be enough to be deemed acceptance - but if it's your own cheque I believe they have a period of time (not sure how long) in which to tell you they have just taken it as part payment on account.

 

Did you quote the full cheque details (sort code, cheque no, cheque amt) in your F&F letter? Did you write on the back of the cheque it was only to be banked if accepted in F&F?

 

I don't want to worry you unduly - it's probably OK and they would have a real fight on their hands if they tried to claim it was just a part payment - but in future always use a third party to pay any F&F deals.

 

BD

Edited May 21, 2010 by Bigdebtor
typos

[Bigdebtor]

H - you're a genius - well done! If they don't reply immediately then I believe they are deemed to have accepted it as F&F. I would reply to their new demands with a "friendly" letter saying you are somewhat confused as they have already accepted the F&F offer and ask them if the letters perhaps crossed in the post? Send recorded delivery so you have proof of this letter reaching them - also ensure you keep the Bank statement showing exactly whenthey banked the cheque. Th elonge rthey take to reply to this the safer your grounds.

 

BD

[Bigdebtor]

Guys

 

I'm looking for a bit of advice. After a long fight (lasting nearly 3 years during which time I've paid only £50 on one occasion) one of my remaining creditors has just appointed new lawyers (not a DCA) who have offered me a 25% F&F deal. I have been playing cat and mouse with the OC and its previous lawyers for the last 3 years now. They have both kept refusing to accept my "affordable" £50 monthly payment (as recommended by CCCS) and the previous lawyers kept sending me the wrong bits of paper when I did a CCA request, and refused to certify that they were "the right" or accept they were "wrong" bits of paper (they were actually nothing to do with my loan).

 

25% is very tempting as they were quite hard nosed for quite a long time - and my family will gladly sub me the cash to get the remaining 75% written off. However it looks as if their new lawyers may have advised them their CCA is unenforecable - I don't know because I've never had the right bits of paper sent so I can check it out!

 

Should I grab the 25% for a quiet life - or play hard ball, demanding they furnish a true copy of the original signed CCA first - and risk them coming up with the original agreement which ends up being enforceable, and then demanding the full 100% again?

 

If I were to accept the 25% F&F subject to them providing a true copy of the full original signed agreement can they just pull out of the deal - or must they leave it on the table while I await the eveidence of an enforceable CCA? I would even be willing to pay up on the basis it was later returned if no enforceable CCA turns up in say 6 months.

 

I know how to word the standard "F&F acceptance letter". What I'm not sure about is whether to send it off at all, or caveat it with reference to the proper original signed CCA turning up!

 

BD

Edited May 27, 2010 by Bigdebtor
typos

[Bigdebtor]

Horsemad1

 

I think I'll take your advice and pay them the 25% to get another debt off my list (see my signature below). Slowly and surely I'm whittling the numbver and amount owed down!

 

I know the new lot are a "proper" firm of lawyers - not inhouse. I'm not surprised the OC hasn't taken me to court. They know if they went to court the "affordable" monthly amount would be all they would get - assuming they could enforce the debt at all.

 

BD

[Bigdebtor]

if these make believe lawyers [which is the next desk at most DCA's or the secretary just putting a diff letterhead in the printer] are offering a 75% discount to clear your debt, there is only one thing to conclude........

they do not have any legally binding agreement & know it can never be enforced. they are fleecing you to line their own pockets.

 

tell them to bugger off and stop talking to them .

 

these 'lawyers' can do nothing to you, it just to frighten you into doing 'something.

 

ignore them totally ....gameover.

 

you pay...you are a mug.

 

dx

 

DX

 

1. I KNOW these are real reputable local lawyers - a year or so ago I even asked them to help me with fighting the previous lot and they declined because they are also retained by the OC.

2. The previous lot of wallies sent me an incomplete agreement and T&C's belonging to a totally different subsiduary loan company - and didn't understand why I was still querying things. They eventually went away bruised and battered.

3. I KNOW the Loan agreement is enforceable (I still have my full copy). If I accept the 25% offer I will actually have paid back less than I borrowed - so I've had an interest free loan over 7 years - and a discount on the amount borrowed. I have never been charged any punitive interest or "default charges" by them. Apart from refusing the affordable payments I first offered over 3 years ago the OC has behaved reasonably (for an OC) - their last lot of lawyers were the real dumbos.

4. The new lot have committed to retrieving the full agreement if I dig my heels in at this point.

5. If they DID take me to Court they would probably only get £50 a month (or even less) awarded - so no better off than my current monthly offer. However I don't want to be still paying lots of £50 monthly amounts to all and sundry when I'm in my 70's!

6. The only thing that would make me dig my heels in now would be a reassurance that the 25% offer would still be on the table if/when they did retrieve their own copy of the full original enforceable CCA.

7. I take it that I can't insist the offer stays open until they show me what they've got?

 

All in all I think paying the 25% is pragmatic - not stupid. It will also give me the time to continue fighting the others who have charged me £1000's in default charges and who (I'm certain) don't have enforceable agreements or have screwed themselves with dodgy DN's and TN's.

 

Thanks to all for your advice - it has helped me clarify my thinking on this one.

 

BD

Edited May 28, 2010 by Bigdebtor
typos

[Bigdebtor]

DX/Mould

 

Thanks for your replies.

 

My thinking is along Mould's lines. I agree there is a moral angle too - but only where the other side has not been too devious or underhand.

 

I got into debt building up a business and through a combination of serious illness and a big PLC bringing out a software product which undercut the one I had spent approaching half a million developing over 5 years, I could no longer even keep up the monthly repayments.

 

This particular OC, while being a pain in not accepting the CCCS-advised £50 per month, has nevertheless never charged me additional interest or default fees on the Loan. I think paying the 25% F&F on offer is both morally correct and pragmatic - it also actually means I have had the Loan for teh last 7 years more than interest free!

 

I will ensure they do sort out my credit rating etc. with the CRA's - but other debts mean it is totally shot anyway.

 

As for chancers like Cr*p one, Egg, Goldfish etc. who have charged me £1000's in default fees and very high interest (much higher than when the cards were taken ot) then it's still WAR - NO CCA or dodgy DN/TN = no more payments.

 

BD

 

PS - What's the best template I can use to accept their F&F offer?

[Bigdebtor]

Mould

 

I had offerred the 25% by phone and followed it up by e-mail.

 

The relevant parts of my e-mail were:

 

As you would see in my Statement of Means, I am operating at a deficit month on month and am in negative equity regarding assets and liabilities. I believe that, if a decree is obtained, I would be able to demonstrate to the court what I can afford, without family support, to pay. That sum would be significantly below the £50 per month offered. However I hope there may be a way to resolve this matter today. My family are willing to offer £xxxx (25%) in full and final settlement of all sums due. This payment can be made within a week of your acceptance.

 

Their letter replied:

 

We write to advise that your offer of ££££ (25%) in full and final settlement has been accepted by our client. We look forward to receiving payment week commencing 31 May 2010.

 

Your help in drafting a suitable response letter would be appreciated.

 

BD

[Bigdebtor]

Mould

 

In response to your query re Account No etc. I confirm they did include this info in the heading and again in the body of the letter. I am pretty sure there is nothing devious going on.

 

The letter is not from any dodgy DCA, in-house "solicitor" etc. - but from a well known firm of reputable solicitors who are retained by the big Banks to act for them.

 

You are right to be suspicious - but in this case I am certain the offer is kosher.

 

Incidentaly I need to get payment off to them to reach them by the end of this week to stay within the terms of my offer - which they accepted.

 

BD

[Bigdebtor]

I agree with Horsemad1.

 

I don't think the 3rd party cheque ploy (although great when properly used) will supersede a Learned Judge - and could be deemed abuse of process. Better to try for set aside if you've the grounds.

 

BD

[Bigdebtor]

Horsemad

 

Unfortunately there are some typos in your second letter. You miss out the "neither". The sentences should say "neither you nor anyone else...."

 

This might totally alter the context - or might be regarded as de minimus.

 

I have learned from painful experience to always let a fresh pair of eyes check my letters. The writer tends to see what they meant to say - rather than what they did say.

 

BD

[Bigdebtor]

I thought DCA's never made mistakes and were always right. Have they been misleading me in the past then when they claimed infallibility?

 

Surely not???

 

BD

[Bigdebtor]

Horsey

 

Congratulations. You certainly seem to have hit on a winning strategy! A few weeks ago my son has had a cheque (around 30% of the balance) accepted in F&F of my debt by a DCA - who have admitted they bank the cheques and then read the letters later!

 

Anyway they have now admitted the cheque was sent with a very clear letter and they ignored the letter. The remaining 70% is being written off.

 

I am thinking of using their stupidity/greed (banking cheques immediately and reading accompanying letters later) to get other debts written off.

 

My son shall send my usual token monthly payment by cheque with an accompanying letter stating that the cheque is in F&F. If they bank it - then good bye debt! Anyone got any reason why this won't work?

 

BD

[Bigdebtor]

Mould/Horsey

 

Two of my most respected CAGGERs offering differnet opinions?

 

If the Law were based on common sense/doing the right thing then I would agree with Mould - but since it seems to be mainly "an ass" I think Horsemad1 is right - and borne out by hundreds of years of Case Law.

 

As already reported the DCA's saying they "made a mistake" in banking the cheque and offering a refund. If they thought they could keep the cheque and not be bound by the leter then I think they would keep the cheque!

 

I genuinely don't know what is right - and having two such highly respected CAGGERs differ just shows how difficult it is to know.

 

BD