Full & Final Settlement Offers - Any Advice???

[brooooooooooce]

I have come to the conclusion that the best way forward for me is to try and negotiate full and final settlements with my creditors. I recently wrote to them all and made a low offer to settle. But it would seem to me that there are a lot of variables that will determine what (if anything) a creditor will accept.

 

A few questions:

 

1. Are there any creditors who will not negotiate f & f's under any circumstances?

 

2. Does anyone have any details of actually agreed settlements with the following creditors:

 

i. Halifax

ii. Barclaycard

iii. MBNA

iv. Co-op

v. Lloyds TSB

vi. HSBC

 

3. What factors affect the amount accepted? If the agreement is unenforceable I guess that would typically lead to a lower settlement figure but a higher one if it is enforceable. Does anyone have any experience of both scenarios i.e. what Sharkleycard will accept on an unenforceable agreement and what they'll accept on an enforceable one?

 

4. What other factors to they consider? Is health an issue? In my case I have a long documented history of significant mental health problems. Do I 'use' that in my negotiations? (Seems a bit bizarre 'using' my fruit loopiness to save money!)

 

5. Can anyone recommend any good threads to read? Or any Caggers with particularly good knowledge? (other than you Andrew1!).

 

6. Can someone explain or point me in the right direction for the chapter and verse about why you should send the settlement cheque via a 3rd party?

 

I'd appreciate any information or guidance.

 

Cheers. Brooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooce!!

[brooooooooooce]

Thanks Martin & Spamheed

 

Thanks for your replies.

 

Is it your experience that most / all creditors will enter into discussions? Or is it the contrary - that most won't enter into discussions?

 

I have had one creditor (only this week) telephone to confirm they will accept a f & f of 15% of the balance. I am hoping this is followed up with the promised letter. In that case I eventually got a poor microfiche copy of the agreement via a SAR. On the face of it it appear to be improperly executed - no PT's. The creditor claimed they were on the reverse but couldn't provide the reverse. They asked for evidence of my mental health problems so I sent them a 20 odd page report a consultant psychiatrist that essentially outlines what a fruit loop I am! Few days after I sent it they telephoned. Or they devious swines with another plan / agenda?

 

Another creditor telephoned and offered to settle for 45% but have admitted they have no agreement (old card going back to 1990, originally an old now vanished building society). Should I continue to argue and push for a lower settlement?

 

Another has said they won't accept 15% but if I provide them with evidence of my health problems they'll look at it again. Are they a little benevolent after all? Or is there something I'm missing i.e. why treat me different to the next man?

[brooooooooooce]

AC. Thanks for that link. Very helpful.

[brooooooooooce]

At the moment I'm not dealing with any DCA's its all the OC. I've also read somewhere that DCA's can be easier to agree f & f's with than the OC. Do OC's always pass bad debts to a DCA or do they issue proceedings themselves?

[brooooooooooce]

I never took PPI on any of them.

 

One other thing that bothers me is this offsetting palava. I have a CC with HSBC, who hold our joint current account. Under what circumstances can they offset against that account?

 

HSBC provided a copy of the CCA - no PT's but a reference to the 'accompanying t & c booklet'. I've written 5 times to HSBC asking them to confirm where the PT's were contained in the agreement but to no avail. Do you think that post Waksman the word 'accompanying' is as good as 'attached'? Or is this more akin to the Mitchell v HBOS case?

 

I also saw somewhere that Carey v HSBC was dealt with on 'assumed facts' not true and full facts and that HSBC are reluctant to proceed further. Any idea why?

[brooooooooooce]

Hi Dotty. Probably got off to a bad start with you - bad mood swings! (me not you). The drugs don't work as well as they used to.

 

Whats your CCA with the Halifax like - enforceable? Unenforceable?

 

Not had a response from them yet re my f & f. They haven't been in touch since I pointed put 3 months ago that the recon true copy of agreement they provided was nothing like the actual one they produced following my SAR.

 

Rang HSBC today but no joy. Indian call centre - the guy was most put out by my suggestion they write off £7500 cos of some guy called Bennion. Is it just me or do others feel hugely deflated when I guy answers in an Indian accent and says his name is John? I just want to scream 'John? You avin a laugh?' No more a John than you are Dot!

[brooooooooooce]

Yeh I looked at your Halifax thread - an old (1988) Leeds Perm credit card. I'm amazed they had any paperwork at all. Parts of it are pretty poor quality but I guess that's microfiche for you. Did you ever get a definite yeh or neh as to enforceability?

[brooooooooooce]

Any one had any joy negotiating an F & F with the Halifax? Just had a letter from them saying categorically they don't enter into F & F's.

[brooooooooooce]

Hi Jimbo.

 

I agree - it's taken a little while for me to conclude that but I know that I now want to settle as many CC's as I can on f & f's and if that results in a screwed credit rating - then so be it. I am asking creditors to agree to mark my credit file as satisfied but to be honest I don't trust them and wouldn't be at all surprised if they had some covert system of alerting other lenders to my waywardness!

[brooooooooooce]

Just had a phone call from a firm called Fredericksons International asking for my full name and DOB. Told em I won't give that out over the phone especially as I didn't have a clue who they were! When I got home I googled them and of course they are a DCA linked to the infamous Bryan Carter. I don't know which creditor they are acting for because I have had no written communication and I hung up without giving my details.

 

To date (7 months) this is the first DCA that has been instructed and I have no experiene of dealing witht them. Anybody have any tips? Are they just like the inhouse wollers? How long before they issue proceedings? Do I ask them for proof the debt is now assigned to them? Do I have to do a new CCA request?

[brooooooooooce]

Hi. Well the post has just come and I've had my letter from Crap1 confirming their acceptance of my 15% offer. States:

 

"We are writing to confirm the settlement arrangement has been agreed. To settle your account a payment of £xxx.xx will need to be received by 2.3.10. Your account will be settled if the payment is received and cleared by this date.

 

We have provided details below on how this settlement will appear at the credit reference agencies once the account has been settled:

* If you have paid the full outstanding balance this will show as satisfied

* If you have paid less than your full outstanding balance this will show as satisfied with an additional flag of 'partial settlement'."

 

Couple of things:

 

1. When I send my third party cheque is there a template letter I can use to ensure that don't try and turn me over with some BS?

 

2. Do I send it directly to them or pay it in at my bank (they say I can use a CC payment slip)?

 

I know some will say that the CRA stuff isn't ideal but in all honestly I couldn't give a stuff anymore about my credit rating - be a bloody good thing if I couldn't get credit again!!!

 

Any help greatly appreciated.

[brooooooooooce]

Thanks for your reply. They haven't defaulted me yet.

[brooooooooooce]

Hi DOT. What they wrote is:

"Thank you for contacting us about the balance outstanding on your Crap One credit card account. We are writing to confirm the settlement arrangement has been agreed.

 

To settle your account a payment of £xxx.xx will need to be received by 2.3.10. Your account will be settled if the payment is received and cleared by this date."

This was in response to my letter which stated:

 

"This offer is made on the clear understanding that, if accepted, neither you nor any associate company will take any other action to enforce or pursue this debt in any way whatsoever and that I will be released from any liability."

 

 

I've found another post that states you shoudl send your third party cheque with a letter confirming the terms and that if they don't agree to those exact terms they should send the cheque back. Has anyone else had experience of Crap One welching on an agreed f & f after you''ve paid?

[brooooooooooce]

Other threads are saying that if you send payment via a third party then there is nothing they can do.

[brooooooooooce]

Cheers.

[brooooooooooce]

The actual letter reads as follows:

 

"Date: 26/1/2010

 

Account Number: 4775 XXXX XXXX XXXX

Balance: £X,XXX.XX

 

Dear Broooooooooooooooooooooooooooooce

 

"Thank you for contacting us about the balance outstanding on your Crap One credit card account. We are writing to confirm the settlement arrangement has been agreed.

 

To settle your account a payment of £xxx.xx will need to be received by 2.3.10. Your account will be settled if the payment is received and cleared by this date.

We have provided details below on how this settlement will appear at the credit reference agencies once the account has been settled:

* If you have paid the full outstanding balance this will show as satisfied

* If you have paid less than your full outstanding balance this will show as satisfied with an additional flag of 'partial settlement'.

 

This settlement offer is available until 2.3.2010. If the settlement payment is not received by this date your account will return to its previous status. Payments should continue to be made in accordance with any agreed payment plan.

 

Any questions please call 0800 952 4914."

 

I guess to be sure I'll write to them (again!!!!!!!).

[brooooooooooce]

Hi Dotty.

 

Just spoke Crap 1, 'Specialist Support Unit' - the girl was very reassuring says it is absolutely an f & f - they won't pass it on to anyone.

 

However I've got until 2.3.10 to pay, so I'm gonna send a letter to them asking for them to confirm that is it and that they won't pass it one to a DCA.

[brooooooooooce]

Hi Dot. Thanks for your reply. I've read the thread and don't think those circumstances are the same as mine. What andy303 seems to be suggesting is that he has sent cheques to creditors marked 'full & final, only bank if you accept in f & f settlement' without actually having negotiated anything with the creditor in first place. He does quote case law but it does seem to me to be a high risk strategy.

 

I've already written to Crap1 asking for them to confirm what they told me last night.

[brooooooooooce]

Cheers for your reply Spam.

 

I've written to them today asking for confirmation of what they said on the phone last night - namely that once I've paid the account will be closed, marked on my credit file as satisfied and that Crap 1 or any other company won't pursue me for any other monies.

 

That, together with sending the cheque via a 3rd party with all the usual 'f & f' blurb should surely be enough? I have already sent an F & f letter with all that blurb already in it - which prompted Crap 1 to contact me.

 

I note what you say about 'partial settlement' but their letter does say my account will be marked as satisfied with an additional marker of 'partial settlement' - because isn't that what I'm offering?

 

Has anyone else had experience of a letter like I've had from Crap 1 and them then welshing on it?

[brooooooooooce]

Ey up Andy lad!

 

Thanks for that. Some points you make are quite pertinent, they hit the spot so to speak. Cheers for your post. Yours and everyone elses' are very much appreciated!! Been along time since I was a virgin, but that's what I am when it comes to all this creditor s**t!

[brooooooooooce]

Hi, sorry for delay in replying - I'm trying to limit the amount of time I spend on this - hours and hours reading CAG threads was starting to cause me some serious issues. So I'm managing things in a different way by only dealing with stuff and using CAG once a week (my will divorce me if I don't!!).

 

Got another letter from Crap1 which reads:

 

"I am glad that you are happy with the action that we have taken with your account and we wish you all the best in the future.

 

I can confirm that on receipt of your agreed settlement payment of £xxx.xx we will close your account and no further payments will be due.

 

We will update the CRA to show the debt has been settled. After your payment of £xxx.xx is showing on your account an amount of £xxxx.xx which is the balance that will be remaining will show as a write off on your credit file."

 

I have again spoken to someone at Crap1 (a very nice English lady) who has explained that Crap1 will only mark my credit file as settled in full if that is what has actually happened. Clearly I haven't settled my account in full. She assures me that once I have paid them then that will be it - no action from Crap1 or any DCA. She also says that I am being dealt with by a specialist dept. in Crap 1 because of my health issues and the medical report I disclosed to them.

 

My wife wants to move this forward and settle it and I think I do as well. I'm going to send them a 3rd party cheque with all the blurb about them only cashing it if they accept it in final settlement etc.

 

I suspect there will be some who say I need more from Crap1 but the content of my letters to them is absolutely clear and unequivocal. They acknowledge receiving them and make reference to them in their letters.

 

Thanks for everyone's help and comments.

[brooooooooooce]

Hi Andrew. Thanks so much for that mate. I've just been away for a few days with my brother and family. On his back he has tatooed the words 'Refuse & Resist' - thinks of himself as a bit of an anarchist. Told him what I was up to with the CC stuff and he calls me one (an anarchist that is!). Initially I thought 'oh yeh I'm going against the system' - ANARCHY IN THE UK!!! (and all that) then I thought no its not me that wants anarchy its the banks and credit card companies. Its them that seeks to ignore the rule of law for their own ends not me. You are right about CAG and the cans of worms it can open.

 

Trouble now is I can't watch an advert on TV for a bank or financial company without wanting to pick something up and throw it at the TV!! 'Lloyds TSB - it's for the journey' - what a load of old b*****ks and that latest ad for the Halifax what a waste of tax payers money!!

[brooooooooooce]

Hi Nat. Thanks for your posts. Really interested to know how you get on with the Halifax. I have been trying but as BigD says they are not very easy to deal with. Like you I have a very dodgy unenforceable agreement but no DN yet. They are definitely very difficult to deal with.

 

I think the thing that swayed Crap1 was my medical report. I am also in correspondence (finally!) with MBNA who are making some of the right noises. From what I have read Crap1 and MBNA don't like dealing with people suffering mental health issues (depression, stress, anxiety etc) and have special depts. to deal with those clients.

 

Sharkleycard on the other hand are a proper set of ba****ds - the minute I told them about my health they passed the account to a DCA. Ba****ds!!!!

 

Hey hoe!!

[brooooooooooce]

I think it rubs both ways - you refuse to acknowledge the debt, they take you to court, the judge says 'you had the money and spent it', you owe the money.

 

Here you admit the debt but point out to them and the judge (assuming you have been provided with an IEA) that its unenforceable due to non compliance with s.61 and then s.127(3) comes into play. The offer to settle is made on a without prejudice basis, just to avoid lengthy and costly litigation. You are not negating any argument about unenforceablility - the Courts want to see reasonable steps being taken to resolve disputes before you go to court.

 

If I was a judge I know which defence I'd be more receptive toward. In deed if you look at cases like Mitchell v HBOS there was no dispute he owed the money (they already had a CCJ for it) but it came down to an IEA.

[brooooooooooce]

Hi Dot and all

 

The stuff re dealing differently with people who have mental health problems, first check posts 1 & 5 from this person claiming to be an ex employee of MBNA:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mbna/129987-i-used-work-mbna.html

 

His claims are backed up by own experience. Someone called Gail Power (president of MBNA europe) wrote to me this week and stated in her letter MBNA have a specific dept. to deal with nut jobs like me (only joking don't take offence). The same with Crap 1 theres is called the 'Specialist Support Unit' or something like that. The people you speak to are human and English.

 

I'm not advocating people get down the doc's and claim they are depressed but I know from my own experience people don't always know they are until the day when their shoelaces snap and their world falls apart. If people are feeling low, stressed, anxious, irritable or just a bit off it - these are all signs. Andrew1 is right, a lot of these ba****ds are taking mental health / debt much more seriously - I know there have been a couple of really tragic suicides (including one woman hounded for money she didn't even owe). I would add that I sent a copy of a psyhchiatric report (really eminent guy, 20 letters after his name!!) to Sharkleycard (after the asked for it and said it would be sent to their medical team) - what did they do? Never bothered to reply just passed my account to a DCA - total ba****ds!

 

Of all my creditors I think I have only one enforceable agreement (but even that one after 6 months they haven't been able to provide a copy of the original t & c's). The others have either defective DN's and / or application / agreements without PT's. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but even if a judge made an order that it was an IEA it would still mean the creditor could pursue you for the money for years and years to come? And the only way to avoid that is make without prejudice f & f's to be rid of them?

 

I haven't acknowledged any of my debts, I've been following the CAG template letters and all that. But if I was forced to go to court well how could I not acknowledge the debt? I have no dispute about the amount of my debt etc (apart from Cahoot who increased the interest on a flexible loan from 10% to 30% because of a cheque that was lost in the post) but I do have a legit dispute over the legality of the agreements and DN's / TN's.

 

As for Nat and Debs I am happy for you to continue posting, you may post something of importance - knowledge is power and all that. Thanks for your posts.