VG - Vs Northen Rock - Charging Order

[supasnooper]

Hi V G,

 

And apologies to rory32 for interupting your train of thought on questions.

 

Just to re-enforce what rory32 has stated - "Sale orders after a charging order are very rare and judges will only grant them in exceptional circumstances. Judges really don't like granting them and if you are making an offer to pay the charge then that strengthens your case."

I was told this earlier in the week by a Judge at my OH's Redetermination\Charging Order hearing.

 

Are the hearings for the Redetermination and Charging Order being held together ?

 

How many other creditors do you have ?

[supasnooper]

Ok V G,

 

thanks for the answers.

 

(Apologies to rory32 if I appear to be stepping in, please feel free to kick me out of the way )

 

 

I see you have applied \ appealed to the court for redetermination and it should be held at a local court.

Call the court that you sent your redetermination appeal letter to see if they have received your request.

 

Have you received any correspondence from Northern Rock or Land Registry informing you of an application for a Charging Order ?

[supasnooper]

Hi VG,

 

The CCA request goes to Eversheds.

 

Just type your name.............there is no need to sign it or actually print it.

 

And send Recorded Delivery.

[supasnooper]

Hi VG,

 

I know the cost of sending by Recorded Delivery is quite expensive but what you get for this is a trackable form of delivery ( You can check this on www.royalmail.com, click on the "track & trace" and enter the number ) and a copy of the signature to confirm its delivery.

 

They can't deny that they never received your CCA request then can they ?

 

Alternatively, if you cannot afford to go for Recorded Delivery, you could take your CCA requests to the Post Office counter and ask for a "Certificate of Postage".

 

Any letter posted to a company holding a Consumer credit licence is deemed served (delivered) after 2 days using a 1st Class stamp or after 4 days for 2nd class stamp.

 

Hope this explains your question.

[supasnooper]

Yep, give them the envelopes at the Post Office counter , and ask for a Certificate of postage........and it's FREE ; well except for the cost of the stamps.

 

No worries about the rep points, just keep reading the forums and keep on learning.

[supasnooper]

I do agree with what CCM has said to a degree...................but isn't it funny how Banks and DCA's mail is always delivered

 

As several people have pointed out in other threads, companies stating that they have not received a letter from you is NO defence and vice versa.

 

By the way, the cost of 1st Class Recorded Delivery is £1.08

[supasnooper]

Hi VG,

 

Have a read again of the link posted at #11 by rory.

 

I'll provide further details of what happens in Court later as I'm rather busy at the moment.

Edited November 26, 2008 by supasnooper
additional words

[supasnooper]

I am presuming that you have not received an interim Charging Order yet ?

 

Firstly, contact CCCS and do a review of your Income and Expenditure of your DMP. Make sure you build in a cost of living increase on your expenditure as most things will increase in price over the next few months (Food, utility bills, etc.). Ask them to send you a copy of the new I & E.

 

Next, get a defence together to post to the court. This needs to arrive at least 7 days before the hearing and MUST go by Recorded Delivery at least, or if you can get to the court then take it in person.

 

Your defence will list the points you may wish to make :-

 

1/ Have all the other creditors been informed of the hearing ?

 

2/ If not, why not ?

 

3/ I am currently in a Debt Management Plan with Consumer Credit Counselling Service who have structured pro rata offers to all my creditors.

This arrangement has been accepted and has been in place for over ** months with all creditors having frozen the interest.

Even ******* Bank (Complete if you have a debt larger than that of Northern Rock) whose debt is in excess of the CCJ debt have maintained a dignified approach to my Debt Management Plan.

The only creditor that has been the exception is Northern Rock.

 

4/ You should point out any particular hardship which your family would suffer if a charging order was to be requested by Northern Rock and possibly lead to the sale of the home. This is particularly important if the debt is in your name but you own your home jointly so it is not even your partner's debt.

 

5/ You may also wish to apply for a "Time Order" as suggested by rory32 earlier in the thread.

 

When you have completed composing your defence ( not forgetting to add your claim no. at the top of your defence), print off two copies and sign the one you are sending to the court. Attach a copy of your CCCS income and expenditure sheet to this and get it to the court.

 

It is also considered good etiquette to send a copy of your defence to the claimant but that's up to you whether you do or not.

 

I would advise getting to the court at least 30 mins before the hearing, making sure you have a copy of your defence, a copy of your CCCS I&E with you and a notebook to make any notes of points raised you wish to query. ( I would suggest .taking 3 copies of each just in case the judge can't find his\her copy).

Present yourself to the Court Usher who will note that you are attending.

Before the hearing begins, the claimants solicitor will probably approach you and introduce themselves. They may offer guidelines of the procedure and etiquette of the court and how the hearing will proceed. They may also advise of the possible consequences of the final decision the judge may make.

Their solicitor are sure to ask if you will be defending the determination and ask what you will say. It is up to you to how you reply to them. You are not obliged to tell them anything ( that's why it's a hearing so you can put your points across ). They certainly won't tell you exactly what they are are going to say.

 

You will be called for the hearing by the usher stating " Northern Rock v Von Greenbach" and be led to the court room. The room itself will have two tables in a T shape and is not like most peoples image of a courtroom shown on television.

The judge will be seated at the head of the table with yourself and the claimant to be seated on opposite sides on the lower leg of the table.

As you are taking your seat introduce yourself to the judge (addressing a gentleman as Sir and a lady as Ma'am) i.e. Good Afternoon Ma'am, I'm Von Greenbach the defendant.

 

The hearing is informal and tends to be a discussion of the facts and observations of the submissions made to the court ( the judge has a copy of your defence remember ).

As you are a Litigant In Person, the judge may try to explain any legal terms to you and also ask you for your points you wish to make.

 

Speak clearly and unemotionally to make sure you emphasise the points of your defence to the judge to make sure that they have been read.

Also question the claimants solicitor on any point you don't agree with.

 

The judge will then state the decision that they have made to both parties and ensure any points of the decision are clarified and understood.

 

Hopefully, you will come away with a reasonable determination amount set by the judge.

 

Hope this helps. I've probably forgotten a few things but will look at it again later

 

If anyone can add to this, please feel free to do so.

Edited November 26, 2008 by supasnooper
Deleted incorrect info.

[supasnooper]

Quote:

Originally Posted by supasnooper

1/ Have all the other creditors been informed of the hearing ?

 

I don't know, should I ring the court and ask?

 

No don't ring the court. this is one of the questions you'll be asking their solicitor.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by supasnooper

3/ I am currently in a Debt Management Plan with Consumer Credit Counselling Service who have structured pro rata offers to all my creditors.

This arrangement has been accepted and has been in place for over ** months with all creditors having frozen the interest.

Even ******* Bank (Complete if you have a debt larger than that of Northern Rock) whose debt is in excess of the CCJ debt have maintained a dignified approach to my Debt Management Plan.

The only creditor that has been the exception is Northern Rock.

 

 

My OH also has a personal load with NR, managed though our DMP, NR wrote sometime ago stating they've accepted the DMP arrangment on there loan.

 

Well worth mentioning about N R accepting the DMP.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by supasnooper

4/ You should point out any particular hardship which your family would suffer if a charging order was to be requested by Northern Rock and possibly lead to the sale of the home. This is particularly important if the debt is in your name but you own your home jointly so it is not even your partner's debt.

 

I wanted to explain to the judge the psychological / psychiatric issues I've suffered over the years, and how this issue is having a major impact with my medical condition, as 5 minutes have been allocated for the hearing, I don't think I'll have time.

 

You take ALL the time you need. This is YOUR hearing and you have your defence to speak about.

The judge will be very interested in what YOU have to say as it is the judge that has to make a legally binding decision and he\she won't want to have it on their conscience that they got it wrong.

The time allocated for the case is only approximate anyway.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by supasnooper

5/ You may also wish to apply for a "Time Order" as suggested by rory32 earlier in the thread.

 

I'm going to have try and digest the information about time orders, I asked CCCS about this, only to be informed it's something they're not clear on.

 

A "Time Order" is when the monthly amount and payment date is set by the courts after looking at the debtors I & E together with their personal circumstances and cannot be changed by the creditor. However, failure to maintain these payments may result in the creditor returning to court for a Charging Order.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by supasnooper

It is also considered good etiquette to send a copy of your defence to the claimant but that's up to you whether you do or not.

 

I'm pretty angry and the way they've dealt with this, considering my own going medical issues, by choice, I'd rather not assist / offer any further information.

 

It's your choice.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by supasnooper

Their solicitor are sure to ask if you will be defending the determination and ask what you will say. It is up to you to how you reply to them. You are not obliged to tell them anything ( that's why it's a hearing so you can put your points across ). They certainly won't tell you exactly what they are are going to say

 

Should I sy nothing to them then?

 

Again, it's your choice. Personally, I wouldn't but others may disagree

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by supasnooper

You will be called for the hearing by the usher stating " Northern Rock v Von Greenbach" and be led to the court room. The room itself will have two tables in a T shape and is not like most peoples image of a courtroom shown on television.

The judge will be seated at the head of the table with yourself and the claimant to be seated on opposite sides on the lower leg of the table.

As you are taking your seat introduce yourself to the judge (addressing a gentleman as Sir and a lady as Ma'am) i.e. Good Afternoon Ma'am, I'm Von Greenbach the defendant.

 

The hearing is informal and tends to be a discussion of the facts and observations of the submissions made to the court ( the judge has a copy of your defence remember ).

As you are a Litigant In Person, the judge may try to explain any legal terms to you and also ask you for your points you wish to make.

 

I have difficulty digesting information, I also suffer with panic attacks, this part of the process is worrying me, incase I don't put up a good enough defence.

 

As I've stated earlier, the judge has to make a decisions based on facts. Just take your time, deep breath, read your defence notes and be composed before you speak.

Remember, the judge will have these facts of your defence in front of him\her and may ask you questions about your defence just for clarity and understanding.

 

Quote:

 

Originally Posted by supasnooper

Hope this helps. I've probably forgotten a few things but will look at it again later

 

If anyone can add to this, please feel free to do so.

 

Thanks so much for your time, and explanation, may I ask one question, in that link within post 11 by rory, it says something like if you're being taken to court contact us, is it worth me contacting them, I'm worried about contacting them in case they're ambulance chasers, and I come unstuck.

 

By all means call them if you feel that you need to speak to someone.

I have no experience or dealings with them so I have no personal comments to offer.

They say they are impartial and the call is free.

They may even have some valid pointers for your defence that I may have missed.

OR maybe worth a call to National Debtline who offer free impartial advice as well. Their number is 0808 808 4000

 

Both of the services have been used by others and have been of great assistance from what I have read.

 

 

I hope my answers will be of fortitude and strength to you.

Edited November 26, 2008 by supasnooper
amendment

[supasnooper]

Hi V G,

 

Sorry not to have answered this earlier.

 

"One further question, is it worth me asking CCCS for some support / defence, or am I better of handling this myself?"

 

Get CCCS to do an up to date review of your Income and Expenditure and request them to send you a copy, together with a copy of your latest CCCS payments statement to creditors.

Ask if they have any advice whilst your talking to them.

 

"When do I ask if my other creditors have been informed of this hearing, do I ask within the defence I'm submitting? Also, will it do more harm than good asking the question? I don't want other creditors jumping on the band wagon by taking further action i.e applying for a CO."

 

Yes ask it in the defence - the judge will want to know the answer to this as well.

 

"Should I include in my defence about psychological / psychiatric issues, or should I wait until the day to mention it?"

 

I would mention it at the end of the defence so the judge is aware that the appeal may take longer than the alloted 5 minutes.

 

"Re Time Order, is it worth me applying for? If granted, do my payments come direct from my DMP (CCCS pay them) or is it attached to my salary, I don't want my employer knowing about my personal difficulties."

 

A Time order may be worth asking for if you feel that the appeal is not going your way. If you do ask for and get granted a Time Order, your employer will NOT find out about it. The payments of a "Time Order" will be made by the judge and stipulate a date it must be paid, also the claimants bank details must be asked for.

 

I would NOT advise letting CCCS make the payment; because if their payment does not reach the claimant in time, the claimant will be within their rights to go back to the courts. It would be better to set up a standing order from your bank account for payment on a date 7 days earlier than stipulated by the court.

 

Your employer will only find out if an "Attachment of Earnings" is made by the court.

 

"When completing my defence, do I have to do it on official court papers, or can I do it plain paper?"

 

You can do it on plain paper -

 

Von Greenbach

1 Letsgo Road

Anytown

Anyshire

A1 2BC

 

XX November 2008

 

Claim No. 8XO******

 

Northern Rock v Von Greenbach

 

Appeal against Final Charging Order

 

Dear Sir \ Madam,

 

I wish to make the following points in defnce against the Final Charging Order.

 

List your points :-

 

1/

2/

etc.

 

Enclose copy of CCCS I&E and latest CCCS statement of payments to creditors

 

Yours Faithfully

 

 

Von Greenbach

 

Sign your defence and get it to the court at least 7 days before your hearing.

Go in person if it's close by or send using Special Delivery.

I know this costs £4.60 but it MUST get there !!

 

Hope this helps.

Edited November 29, 2008 by supasnooper
added info

[supasnooper]

Make sure you add a statement of truth at the end before signing too.

 

 

Well spotted..........Big Thanks.

[supasnooper]

Hi VG,

 

Finish at the bottom of your letter :-

 

 

Statement of Truth

 

 

I, XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX, believe the above statement to be true and factual.

 

 

Signed .....................

 

Date XXth November 2008

Amend the date.

Please do sign the letter, as any correspondence to the court must be endorsed....................but NEVER to a DCA or Solicitor.

[supasnooper]

Thanks for your posts CCM............ I just hadn't got round to replying to VG on his original thread.

 

Best Regards,

 

Snoops

[supasnooper]

N244 attached

[supasnooper]

Yes refer to any documents as a), b), c) etc or as VG 1, VG 2 etc.

 

You'll need a cover sheet for each exhibit document as set out here (courtesy of pt2537) -

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-1891394.html

[supasnooper]

My hearing is listed for next week, if and it's a big if I'm successful am I allowed to ask for costs?

 

 

Yes, if you are successful in getting in your appeal against an Interim Charging Order being made final, make a polite request to the judge for an order as to your costs against the claimants solicitors for the Litigants In Person rate of £9.25 per hour.

 

Also, don't forget to make a request to the judge if you are successful that the solicitors remove all the markers of the Interim Charging Order from the Land Registry and ALL creditors within 14 days.

Accept no excuses from the solicitors on this, they placed the markers on, they get them off !!

 

Look at it this way, go to move your mortgage to a lower rate scheme, the Building Society would refuse because of the Interim Charging Order.

How much has this cost you ?